Bill Cagle sold me IBD!!!

Hey you people out there who want to jump on me....I don't care!!!  This post is for people thinking of buying a snake from Bill Cagle. My experience with him was bad news. Buy from breeders and buy young. Don't you like having one owner items???

Hey Chris.
I realize you're still upset and all, but....... I think it would be more effective if you updated your previous posts. Maybe give an update on how the other boas are doing. Post a timeline of how this deal went. I don't mean to pick on you, but this post makes it look like you're trying to start trouble instead of informing the public of any "wrong doing". I realize you have the right to be upset and I feel for your situation, but please don't make yourself look like the "bad guy".
                        Good luck,
                              Linda <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Hi Linda.....thanks for the advice but this post was to warn new buyers!!!  I don't need a time line  I have a lab reported saying the snake had IBD..it died two weeks after Cagle sent it, how's that for a time line!!!! I have a second one about to die at a friends house..as soon as it dies I'll have two lab reports saying he sold IBD!!!  WOW all that and you still want to question why I want to warn people..........

I'm with you 100% Chris! Sorry about your loss!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chris Red @ Mar. 11 2002,15:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I don't need a time line  I have a lab reported saying the snake had IBD..it died two weeks after Cagle sent it, how's that for a time line!!!!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Chris....
I asked you for a time line way back.......you said you will have to work on it.......now you are saying you do not need to provide it....
What is really going on?
Why are you so reluctant to provide the time line?
why do you need to "work" on a time line?

while I agree with your warning customers.  (COMPLETELY AGREE AND SUPPORT YOU)
I now have to be weary.......

What is wrong with a time line?.............
please see it from another point of view....how do we know that lab report is not for one of your already sick snakes.....that you decided to pin on bill's snake?

your reluctance and/or resistance to show a timeline is quite fishy

just my 0.2  which someone once told me was really -0.2

Richie....I don't care if you want a time line, it happened all in two weeks....what else do you need to know??? How many times it pissed out nasty yellow and green stuff from day one and for the next 13 days before it died!!!  There is nothing I can say that will provide enough proof for you anyway...so buy from Cagle if you like!!!

i was talking about from when he sent it to you to the first appointment.....to the death to the consecutive appointments....to when you took it to the lab...to the lab report etc etc etc.

not long ago you were willing to provide a timeline.
you just had to "work" on it.

no you are being real "defensive/aggressive/aprehensive" about it.

what happened?
why the sudden change in attitude?

I agree he should cool off on selling snakes.....
BUT
you have just gotten my curiosity peaked.....

sorry Richie here you go...in a nut shell
1/07/02  sent money via pay-pal
1/09/02  snake came by Aireborn in beat up box
1/26/02   brought to vet. full of worms and parasites
1/26/02   snake died that night
1/28/02 sent snake off for lab test, two weeks latter results come back positive with IBD.

  so if you have anymore I'll try to answer them with less attitude...agin sorry if I come across short...Chris

I haven't ever bought from Bill and am in no way defending him, but he always responds to any complaint by saying he's got a 100% satisfaction policy.  Have you contacted him about a refund???  I'm not saying that selling sick snakes is right, but you really should try and work something out with him before you start slinging mud...

Of coarse I talk to him....but that's not the point!!!
The point is he sold me a snake with IBD....even if we ever work it out he still sold me a snake with IBD and buying from him was bad news. So if you call that slinging mud sorry.

Did he offer you a refund? did he offer you a replacment? yes that all comes into play because if he did so then being responsible for what happened, did the animal appear sick when you received it? or did it appear healthy? without killing an animal there is no way for someone to know it has IBD, many boas can be carriers for life and it never affects them but they will infect other animals, very little is known about this desease, you cant just slam him if he followed through and took care of things after the animal died, the little bit I know about the desease I would venture to say that all of us that have large collections at one point or the other have had an animal with it, its no differant then people with AIDS unless they are tested you will never know they have it till the end when they are showing signs, well there is no testthat can be done on live boas to find IBD, my whole point is youve said in very little detail what happened to the animal what has Cagle had to say and how has he handled this, when was the first time you contacted him about the problem? this first time you noticed it? 3 days later? after it died? what did he have to say? did you send him a copy of the neocropsy? have you given him a chance to make right on this before blasting this in public?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> did he refund your money or replace the animal?? sorry but your posts are still incomplete with limited info and only offering the little bit of the story that you have, you look more like troblem maker then anything else, so why dont you give a nice big post with emails etc. etc. etc and show us all the whole story

For Jason and anyone else who doesn't know... This issue has been covered in 2 separate threads before so we don't have to rehash as much.

First thread.
Second thread complete with a copy of the lab report

Happy reading.
-Morti, AKA Donnie Smith
Redtailboa.net/org

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1/07/02  sent money via pay-pal
1/09/02  snake came by Aireborn in beat up box
1/26/02   brought to vet. full of worms and parasites
1/26/02   snake died that night
1/28/02 sent snake off for lab test, two weeks latter results come back positive with IBD.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Ok, what about the time line for the other/s in your collection?
Such as when they started showing symptoms and dying.

Hey thanks for the link Donnie, I read through the first two pages of the one and as far as I am concerned Cagle made right on the deal, also I wish the webslave would enforce the rules and start deleting multiple postings, this is the third time you have posted this in  new thread, why not use the same threads?? looks to me like you just wanna start trouble, you bought two animals that he informed you of being unhealthy prior to buying them, as far as I am concerned he went way out of his way to give you two healthy ones, I wouldnt have, he properly advetised them and sold them at a discounted rate, he owed you NOTHING more ,you knew what you were getting, he didnty lie and sell them as healthy, all you are trying to do is cause trouble if I was Cagle I would hold you accountable, I agree with what someone in the other thread said SELLER BEWARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't see why you are even posting this.  I have recieved animals with gaping wounds, respatory problems, ect.......
But the person I was dealing with replaced animals. sometime shipped new ones right away and sometimes added them to my next order. So yes I was unhappy with the animals but they made it right by me.  Also we all need to understand all new animales should be put in quarantine. No matter where the animals comes from. Because you never know what could have come in contact with the animal during shipping. Always take care of new arrivals last.
I always use rubbing alcohol on my hands and what ever part of my body came into contact with my animals when working in the quarantine room. Then move on to the next one that is being quarantined. This may seem a little over board. But I have made mistakes years ago with my hamsters, and lost 1000 hamsters to wet tail.  Anyway that's all I have to say on this.

1 More thought   add to your old post and they will be new again instead of having three. Thank you Frank.

Chris,

 I am NOT bashing you. But you are beating a dead drum. You MAY have noticed that the whole thing has been basically buried, both on this BOI (before you posted this) and on the boa forum.

     Thats right Boys & Girls!  Its back to "Business as usual"
Bill Cagle is selling boas as he always has.
"Wait a  *friggin second*!", you say, ""Cagle was selling snakes EVEN as the necropsy of the I.B.d. boa was being posted!"

If you observed this, than your 100% correct. your eyes did not lie to you or deceive you. He kept selling snakes, even after a snake that was PROVEN to have I.B.D. was traced to have come from his COLLECTION.

But all that is over now................
Time has "washed over" all the injustices of the past.
And "cleansed away" any potential for future illness.
And eliminated any chance for possible contamination

                            OR HAS IT?

When Peter Kahl, got I.B.D. YEARS AGO, he did the PAINFULL and RESPONSIBLE thing, he  PUT a lot of his snakes down, got a lot tested(necropsied) DESTROYED their cages, and basically started   ALL OVER.

But Bill Cagle keeps selling snakes.
I guess that chases the virus away.
Selling snakes.
The cure.
go figure

Chris, by posting here all you will get is a new crop of Cagles "friends", cheerleadersand "Satisfied customers" who dont even KNOW if their very own snakes were exposed and other people willing to raise the mantra for someone that didnt do what was RIGHT. Not refunding your money....not giving you a replacement snake from his "Private stock"....not publicly apologizeing for it(Which would have made ALL the diffrence in the world in the eyes of many, none of these things is REALLY the important thing.

But just shutting down, putting down snakes, getting others tested and destroying cageing is. No mention of this activity No fun for anybody, and I feel sorry for himj if it ever comes to this. Nope..its just business as usual.

 Argeing about the time line, the refund, the snakes exchanged is redundant. The REAL ISSUE has to do with


                      CONTAINMENT


and that comes down to Cagle doing something that DOES NOT include within the scope  of it -SELLING more snakes.
Personally, I hope I am NEVER in his position, as it is not an easy one to be dealing with, do you:

a)Continue to sell snakes that appear outwardly healthy, but may be infected with the virus, sending them to all corners of the globe and throughout the United States.

                                 or)

b)  STOP SELLING BOAS, Put any down that show signs, and a few that dont, have them NECROPSIED FOR Inclusion bodies, and potentially put ALL the boas you have down, discarding the cages and start all over again.

Wow....painfull. Really , honestly , truly painfull, no matter WHO it is.

I personally would choose "B". but it would hurt like hell.

I am sure that some will come on here and give there  half hearted ideas about a compromise that should be reached in this situation. That perhaps not all the snakes in this situation should be put down "only" the ones that had direct contact.
I can understand this thinking, yup I can. Only problem with it is this: How do you decide which ones stay and which ones go?

And do you sell any of them, knowing or not knowing that they could potentially infect other collections?
Tough one eh?

Chris, I am not an expert, I feel for you, you were sold sick snakes, were dumb enough not to practice quarantine procedure on them, and have received nothing but grief for it since then everytime you complain about it. your complaints are falling on deaf ears. People have short memories, and this whole matter has been swept under the rug, to be forgotten.
A deadly virus forgotten. Good trick huh?


                                     Deadly serious,


                                          Fred Albury

                                         (Aztec Reptiles)

Where is Bill Cagle? He used to be in here defending himself or offering an explanation of some sort. I bought a Suriname Boa from him a couple years back with no problems, I hope this IBD (alleged IBD, I should say) is not affecting his entire collection...Basically it boils down to this, it no longer matters to me whether or not one of his "high end" boas is currently showing signs of illness, they are all a big risk when it comes to purchasing them. Just because they are "Screamers" doesn't mean they are immune from showing IBD later after the sale is completed. His whole collection could be timebombs waiting to go off. This is very sad if it is true as he always has wonderful looking boas. But no matter the profits or losses, if Bill is as responsible as I think he is, he should stop selling boas until he determines whether or not he has IBD anywhere in his collection. I would like to hear Bill himself answer some of the questions raised.

Paul Snyder

One thing I want to know...has he (cagle) advised any of his customers that he has had snakes that were positively diagnosed with IBD come through his shop? I bet not. All you "happy" new customers, think about this. I wonder if the infected boas were in a cage near your snakes....

Jason Cothren

This is the first time I've posted in this thread....I don't know Bill (personally), and I'm not TOO familiar with IBD....BUT....when this thread was FIRST STARTED, I sent this thread to Bill as a heads-up! His reply really threw me for a loop! He basically told me that it is BUSINESS AS USUAL...WE ARE ALL IDIOTS...HE COULDN'T CARE LESS WHAT WE SAY OR THINK...HE SELLS A LOT OF SNAKES, AND THIS POST WON'T AFFECT HIS BUSINESS IN THE LEAST!! ...HE WILL NEVER RESPOND TO THIS THREAD...AND HE DOESN'T EVEN *READ* THIS SITE!!

SO....obviously, there is NOTHING that Bill is going to do about ANYTHING that was said in this thread!! Just thought you guys would like to know! ....Neil

After my last post...I received this email from someone who would like to remain anoymous...so be it....but, the post makes a VALID POINT!! What can actually be done about it without Bill's help?? I don't know....but, here's the emai anyway!!....
_
If ANY OF YOU know Bill PERSONALLY, maybe YOU should talk to him about this and see what can be done??? He obviously couldn't care LESS about what is said on THIS forum....Neil