In need of opinions...

I am just asking this to get opinions from other Beardie keepers(and herp keepers in general I guess).

Recently, I lost all three of my bearded dragons over a 48 hour period. They had no prior indications of being ill in any way. They were growing at an awesome pace(from 4-9 inches in a 3 month period). They were all eating machines as most healthy beardies are. All three were drinking well and never had any adhered sheds like seen on many beardeds. They ate crickets, mealworms, meal beetles, and veggies like they were going out of style. Temperatures were optimum. ALWAYS defecated in well formed dark stools without fail...and with frequency as most beardies do. lol

Now here's the problem. I bought a new box of 6000 mealworms. I fed out the mealies to most of my insect eaters after receiving them and getting them gut-loaded for 24 hours per my normal procedure. The beardies of course went nuts as usual(as did all of my other insectivores) and gobbled them up. Well, the next morning when I went to spray them, one was not looking all that great. Very listless and its eyes were sunken in as if he hadn't had water for a month. He was dead within an hour of his discovery. I pulled the others out of the cage as they were looking alright still. Their cage and furniture were thoroughly disinfected and scrubbed down, aired out, scrubbed down again, and the others were returned to their cage(didn't have other housing open for them at the time). I watched them until I went to bed and they were doing fine. The next morning, another was dead and the third was looking as horrible as the first one I found dead and he died within a couple minutes of my finding him.

Now, just so you know, I fed out mealies from the same batch to just about everything else that would eat them including leopard geckos, Rhacodactylus geckos, Uroplatus, some turtles, and my Red-eye Tree Frog. None of them showed or displayed ANY problems after feeding on the mealies and still haven't to this day(this was back in November). So I'm pretty sure there weren't any contaminants as my other animals would likely have dropped dead as well. And whatever it was, it hit VERY fast.

Any ideas? NEver heard of or seen it past a month old, but do beardies suffer from SIDS?

Rob, I don't think the mealies did it either, that quick and no other symptoms sounds viral, especially with the other reptiles eating the same thing. Off chance something that the mealies were exposed to many only affect beardies is slim.

Had you been to any shows in the previous 2 weeks prior to this happening? added any new animals to your collections? or anyone handled them that was not the norm? some viruses that are very sensitive to beardies, can be passed through human hands or clothes.

did you happen to save one or any tissue samples?

Sorry for your loss that had to be a hard shock

That is very scary.
The only other thing I can think of besides possibly catching the virus from a show or other animal is a hard hitting bacteria such as salmonella--or their is one other that I cannot remember the name of off hand.
I once had a dragon die all of the sudden like that after a feeding--one day bouncing around eating, fat, alert--the next day eyes sunken way in and totally listless--dead in 5 hours. It was pretty devastating. Took her in for the full pathology (luckily my vet likes to work trades for reptiles : )), and it was salmonella from the pinkie that I gave her. Now, I thought this was pretty rare and only happened due to rodents, but I was reading through the rhac forum on KS recently and I noticed that one guy there had 3 cresties die within 24 hours and didnt know what it was--he came back on after the pathology came back--salmonella and the other bacteria that I cannot remember the name of. Now, with cresties it couldnt have been from a pinkie...just makes you think a little... Basically, it worked like food poisoning and reacked havoc on the entire system--like ingesting a toxin.
dana

Rob,
Firstly, I'd like to express my sorrow and sympathy for your loss.

My thought is salmonella as well. There are so many ways to transmit that bacteria, that it's reasonable to think that's what it could have been. Many different types of foods carry deadly bacterium, salmonella being one of them. It's possible that it could have been on your hands from your own food preparation and still not be in a large enough amount to affect you, or maybe even present in the beardies food or water bowl somehow. It can even be transmitted on a untensil used to prepare the animals food or a cleaning tool like a sponge or rag used to clean their dishes or environment.

I seriously doubt it could have been the worms themselves. As you already stated, your other animals would have become sick as well.

Regardless of why it happened, it still really stinks. Again, sorry for your loss.

Laura

Thanks everyone for the ideas and kind words.

I am curious though, does salmonella really react THAT fast without warning? It's just wierd to me because I wash my hands before and after handling my animals(as EVERYONE should IMO) and there were no new animals brought into my collection at the time they died(or since). Also, nothing had changed in their environment EXCEPT this new batch of mealworms, but I doubt they alone would be a catalyst to the fast demise they suffered. They all went from perfectly fine to dead pretty much literally overnight. If you could remember the name of that other bacteria would you mind passing it along to me?

At least if they had shown some signs of illness before I would have less of a problem with them dying(it would still suck, but at least I would have known it was coming or could have fought it), but these mystery deaths are the worst.

It is actually kind of funny since I have kept and bred beardies before(but always got burned out with the sheer numbers these guys can produce), but this was my first try back in a couple years. Oh well, there's always next year, and I've still got my geckos and chondros

Hello again,

In answer to your question, yes, salmonella does act that quickly, as do the other food related forms of bacteria. I have had salmonella myself, and the effects of the bacteria showed itself within hours of transmission. Fortunately, I was able to stay afloat until it had run it's course and passed through my system. Smaller life forms (including animals and even human children can easily be killed by it). I'm running on very little sleep at the moment and can't quite think of the names of the other bacteria, but when I do, I will let you know.

Handwashing is very helpful, and I agree with you that it should be a common practice, but occasionally a bacterium can get through. Unfortunatley, without tissue/fecal samples and labratory aid, it's almost impossible to know for sure exactly what the culprit was.


Laura

chlamydia is one, there is also one that starts with a "G", but i can not locate the name.

Rob, I don't know if this helps but Dana saying what she did, got me to thinking (dangerous I know)

We have a female beardie that 5 months was healthy, active, eating great, never a problem.

One day I went to feed her and she looks terrible, ill. We gave her a bath and some water, about 2 hours later she prolapses. Rushed to the vet he treated her, she was badly dehydrated in just a few hours and she prolapsed again, so during surgery they did a gram stain from her intestines.... salmonella and the other one that starts with a "G". treated with Cipro and she recovered, but it was real touch and go there for 48 hours, and I think only the skills of the Vet kept her alive.

The only thing different to her since she had been to the vet with fecals prior to this and clear, was she was given small super worms the previous day for the first time. Now in hindsight I see this was stupid, but I was thinking the chitin in the superworms caused the prolapse. But reading more and thinking back to what the Vet said. It was the gram neg bacteria that caused the prolapse but I never questioned where that came from, could it have been the super worms?

Other beardies and geckos were also given the same that day. They had no problem, but we know she was clear just a few weeks prior to this and in no contact with other reptiles.

Very Scary!

Cheri,

that situation is very similar to what mine was regarding the mealworms. Everything else had been offered them, but only the beardies had a bad reaction. Some of the geckos that got the mealworms were much smaller than the beardeds, so I figure if it would attack small immune systems, they would have been first to go, but they are still going strong.
Perhaps it is just the poor genetics and reduced immune ability of the US bearded bloodlines rearing their ugly heads again. Who knows?

But thanks everyone for the kind words and info.

Klebsiella was the name of the bacteria along with salmonella that the guy on the rhac forum stated--wasnt what I was thinking of which started with an e or a g I think. But, yes, that hard hitting. This was a huge fat 4 year old dragon. The only immune issue that might have been going on was that it was at the end of a breeding season and she tended to produce a lot of eggs. But, she was old school, no-name blood--ie hardy as heck and not inbred (or all that colorful), so I dont think it was genetics. From what the vet said, it is just a hard hitting, food poisoning or toxic like reaction. I did the gross necropsy and I can tell you that her insides had turned to complete mush in no time flat. I thought it was a toxin, but I was baffled and had the vet send away for the full pathology. Salmonella.

I'm real sorry Rob--it is a harsh way to see them go. Like I said, I was shocked when one day this girl was as healthy as can be, the next dead and totally sucked in.
I have no theories on the whole worm thing, but I wonder...thinking about what worms and crickets are fed before we get them, any food old or molding....????? Thanks, now what is left that I can feed my lizards without being paranoid!!!!!

dana

thinking about what worms and crickets are fed before we get them, any food old or molding....????? Thanks, now what is left that I can feed my lizards without being paranoid!!!!!

Click to expand...

I agree!

After a nightmare round of coccidia that was really hard to get rid of, I now make sure we have crickets 1-2 weeks before fed to the reptiles, feed them only dry food and sponges that are boiled daily and fresh water in them for fluid. I do add some fresh squash, carrots etc to them the day before being fed to the reptiles, but even those are kept in a separate bin and cleaned out daily. NO papers or anything in the cricket tanks but some egg cartons changed out often. Only if the crickets have little die off do I use them.

We had a massive die off on the gel cricket drink with calcium. I have throw out entire lots of thousands of crickets when they are dying off after arrival for no reason.

I really never thought about the meal or super worms being a possible source of a problem.

I think rob may have hit it on the head when he said poor genetics and reduced immune ability of the US bearded bloodlines rearing their ugly heads again, this gene pool is very limited and we are seeing many things in them that in the past were not common. Sometimes I think we know so little and am afraid we may be making a lot of the problems for them when our intentions are the best for them.

The German Giant line does seem more resistant, but can someone help me out here, I thought that was one of the first introduced into the US and breed? If thats the case, shouldn't we be seeing more problems there than less?

Dana.. I know you have a lot of experience with these, can you fill in the background some?

You know, perhaps this should be the beginning of a new thread, but the inbreeding of dragons, due to limited gene pool, seems to be mounting to a serious problem. Any of you that frequent the KS forum will remember when Bojack had twin dragons, you will prbably also remember when I hatched Biped, and now the Vandivers have siamese twins. I have heard of more deformities more often in the last year. Could we have reached a sort of event horizon where the genetics begin to seriously break down? It seems to me that there is no real operable solution as the gene pool is so limited that we cannot really introduce any fresh genetics.

Well, I could go on and on about the genetics/inbreeding thing.

Since it doesnt look like we are going to be able to get much new blood anytime soon (although I believe that there have been several dragons smuggled in since the originals) I believe that people should just strive to get dragons from as many different sources and bloodlines as possible. And that people should be aware that buying from 2 different people does not assure you 2 different bloodlines. Therefore, try to trace genetics, and to be doubly safe--dont breed any 2 dragons that look alike. Breed your reds to yellows, your whites to oranges...etc etc...and look for different patterns too. I'm starting to see a bunch of look alikes in the high colored dragon market--not only do they all have similar color (red/orange/sandfire), but they have nearly identical markings too--from several different breeders.

Of course this is never going to fly because it seems more breeders are interested in producing as high color as possible at whatever expense--everyone is still going to breed their reds to their reds to make more red, oranges to oranges, etc etc...
And I do believe this is at the expense of health, longevity, immunity, etc etc... I do think it will blow up in our faces someday. I know that the dragons I got in the early and even late 90s are a heck of a lot hardier than the ones I get today. I even see a difference from last year to this year! Actually, a big difference....hmmm...

As for German Giants, I was told that they were imported later (I'll have to double check on the exact year)--but there is some controversy as to who actually got them from Europe or if it was a couple different people. Pete Weis is usually credited with bringing them into the states, but I know people that refute that strongly--typical of the reptile world it seems : )
I am trying to mix in a little German everywhere I can. Although, I do think some of the Germans have been inbred a lot too. I see color x Germans as the way to go, but that is just me.

Back to the worms...I wonder if their is some chance that they are being fed meat products???

How do people feel about the anti-coccidial chicken starter for crickets to help keep coccidia away--in addition to gutload/fruits and veggies or whatever else....?

The past two years it seems parasite levels are a lot higher in dragons--I'm under the impression we need to start treating them like dogs and cats--deworm them on a regular schedule and treat any new animal acquired. I've adopted using that parazap once per month on all young dragons as a preventative.

dana

one more thing in response to Richard's post...I think deformities do happen--it is natural--so who knows. But, I too wonder about the stats--how much have they increased over the years?

Biped / Twins

Things like lizards born missing limbs are not an uncommon thing. I have that happen often (6x'S a year) but it's alway in the summer when when incubation temps are getting high. I tend to think it's more of an incubation thing than genetic drift.

Last year I had a clutch of Vieleds (36) where half the (18) eggs hatched as twins most of them made it. These we from a WC female I'd had for almost 2 years. She never had twins befor nor has she since.

Other gut bugs

Is Giardia the "g" one folks are thinking of? I've had that show up in occasional fecal samples but it didn't freak me out too very much because that's a common waterborne critter here in PA and sometimes shows up in public drinking water, particularly the Scranton and Poconos areas.

We don't even treat it here unless it's symptomatic because it runs its course and gets fought off pretty easily. If symptomatic Baytril kicks it nicely in beardies. I've never had to treat one of my own for it, just let it work through. Repeat fecals in 2 weeks usually don't show any left. It can get nasty though if the beardie does get diarrhea and the immune system is really down.

Genetics

I find the genetics stuff very interesting indeed. If legends are true, all the German Giants are descended from that one prolific female named Lucy, yet they seem to show less inbreeding problems than the sandfires or leucistics. Due to more careful outcrossing, I suppose? The GG size and hardiness seem to breed truer than high coloreds due so line breeding isn't seen as so necessary to establish a bloodline?

Boy, how I wish Australia would let us bring over a hundred dragons to try and freshen up our bloodlines, but I understand their stance. They have some of the most fascinating creatures in the world and they want to keep them around for future generations. I wish the folks in the US took the status of reptiles in the wild so seriously.

eyespy

Yes, thank you, that is the name i was looking for that Myst had.

She had been fine, seemed healthy and eating well, then boom, all of a sudden she looked really ill and then the prolapse.

I have two adult GG, neither have really given us any problem, at age two, one has never been to the Vet but his first checkup and the other once for a slight cough I heard and she had a mild URI that was knocked out in a few days, both always have clear fecals.

I have a little sandfire right now, age 6 months that I call my old man, he has what they call false gout. His hands look like an old mans with arthritis. He is under the same UVB heat as the others and eats the same greens/veggies and crickets. Our Vets thinks it is from inbreeding, we have had x-rays, blood tests and he's on meds now that are helping. He has always ate well, one of our better eaters, and colors are beautiful...... sad.. hopefully the meds can undo some of the damage to his little fingers/toes

I think people are unaware of the number of bearded dragons produced and sold. We're a small time breeder and quite a number of dragons went out our doors this year. The shear numbers (for example we have 4 pet stores in our small/med town. Cut that in half. So 2 stores on average per city/town. Each has 4 or 5 dragons for sale. Times this by every city/town in the US. Now you haven't even touched on shows or online sales.) mean that the limited gene pool is going to get taxed without fresh imports. Now factor in the color limiting issues.

GG's are not as desired by "joe blow public" and therefore not produced in the high numbers. Therefore you don't have near the inbreeding that you have with inland's.

Forward looking breeders will be "taking a year off" with some of their animals and breeding with "normals" or GG's to re-introduce hardiness into their lines. Similar to how farmers rotate fields to improve quality of crops.

Oh, wait did I suggest a plan with more than 12 months to fruitation??!! Oh forget that, does anyone have any adult female breeders for sale ??

(just joking on the last paragraph, that just seems to be the question of the month from customers).

Genetic Can O'worms

This will get a rise out of someone. I hear lots of people going on about BD inbreeding genetics ect. To be honest with you none of us really knows about the genetic diversity of the captive population.

To my knowlege I have never heard of anyone that did a genetic study on bearded dragons. Maybe there like Cheetahs and there all related!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know................

Alot of people think clutch size/hatch rate is a reflection of the over genetic-health of your colony. Everyone seem to forget that as-few-as 3or4 years ago bearded were eather NORMALS or REDxGOLDS. The normals produced (for Me) 30-40 eggs per clutch. The REDxGolds (for me) produced 18-24 eggs per clutch.
I see a direct correlation between the desire to produce color where we breed more and more color into our normal dragons.

RE: Genetic Can'o'worms

Chad, did you see Svee's thread on beardies in Australia?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=9169

I think the observations of Svee and other Australian herpers regarding America's shallow gene pool are pretty on target. I know the University of Pennsylvania vets give a "limited lifespan" of 15 years for beardies that have

1) good genetics
2) reduced animal protein diets once they reach adulthood
3) never been kept on sand (whole other can of worms there!).

They see most beardies as having a realistic lifespan of about 8 years because it's a rare beardie that meets all of those conditions.

Svee's post more than doubled that! Sure, it's not a scientific study but I lurk in the Australianherps newsgroups and a lot of other folks make similar observations about morph-crazy Yanks who are starting with a limited number of dragons in the gene pool to begin with.

I saw this quote posted recently:

The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard -- Steven Wright

LOL, I think that says a lot.