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Jungle/stripes simple recessive

Monte

Monte

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I've read a lot of debates questioning whether or not jungle/stripes are simple recessive. I'm probably going to do the experiment myself this year just to satisfy my curiosity. I tend to trust the FAQ on Ron Trempers site, but a lot of people, for some reason, don't. I was wondering if any of you have proved it out.
 
The line of Stripes that we work with appear to be genetic, as we get 100 percent of them when breeding males and females together of that line. However, we have never outcrossed them with anything and then observed the results of an F2 generation.

As for Jungles, I'm still not 100 percent sure that those are. We get some odd looking things hatch out that look like what everyone is calling Jungles, but we have never done anything to try to selectively breed for that 'look'.
 
Although its a bit fuzzy, according to Tremper, Stripes are selectively bred Jungles, which are a recessive trait.
 
If you read the LGM you will find that RT claims that Jungle AND Stripe are recessive but that Stripe is (darn cold, can't remember the term) over powered by Jungle.

If you read what people are writing on the forums, you will get mixed reactions. Just recently I saw a post where someone said that a Stripe/Stripe mating produced normals.

Rich, until you do the out and back crossing, you will not know for sure. There is such a thing as genetic overpowering where the genes are so concentrated that selectively bred traits appear to be recessive when bred together. If you out cross a generation or two it disappears.

Mind you I have not done any of this myself either, just giving information I have picked up along the way in observation.

Steven
Royal Gold Reptiles
 
Hopefully I'll be able to tell you one of these years ;p

This year I have stripe x normal, stripe x abberant, jungle x normal... next year i'll be breeding the offspring to eachother, and in very few cases back to the parents.

Of course, that's assuming everything goes as planned this year =)
 
OK, just to show that I am not a total dweeb, I finally got my head cleared and remembered what it was I was trying to say.

RT claims that Jungle is dominant over Stripe.

There, and I didn't even have to refer to the LGM. I was THAT close to having to, but pulled it out of my "cold" infested brain.

Steven-RGR
 
Well the first hatchling of the year has been born and with it a debate over this topic:

Normal Phase Bell Albino Male x Stripe Female = Jungle
 
 
Semi-unrelated...

But I wanted to ask Monte and it is about gecko morphs.

Did you ever start that Tyrosinase Positive Albino x Hypermelanistic project?

I know it'd be a while before you begin to see any results if it even seems to be viable, having to line breed for a few generations but...

When you mentioned the concept before it tweaked my interest both because... Well, it should in theory produce results and when it comes to new morphs, I like the understanding of the genetics and the physiology if not the actual individual animals so much.

Just as a quick explination, as this discussion started on another forum that I lost the URL to and have been lazy in getting back (Sorry Mike) to the website...

I misunderstood Monte's use of "T-Albinos" which was being used to indicate Tremper line albinos, I took it to indicate Tyrosinase Negative albinos (Trempers are Tyrosinase positive as I understand it), which evolved into a discussion about crossing hypermelanistic animals, which produce additional melanin... with tyrosinase positive albinos, which create melanin but it is unable to remain sequestered in the melanophores (This is why tremper line albinos look "Dirty" when compared to Las Vegas albinos).

I wagered a guess that the animals would be a sort of interesting patternless brownish color (I think it's interesting anyway) that could potentially be increased to a darker and darker brown bordering on black through selective breeding, since hypermelanism is usually a quantitative trait (and possibly manipulation of incubation temperatures, I've read Trempers FAQ on the subject but, as of my last perusal, it didn't specify wheather melanin production was increased or the density of melanophores).

It seemed like a pretty interesting proposal for a project but also one that would require holdbacks and using females that can produce valuable offspring on an experiment that mught not pan out and might not be worth anything if it did...

At any rate, just wondering if you (Monte) decided to give it a shot and how it's coming along if you did.

Thanks.
 
Actually Seamus, to my knowledge Rainwaters are T+ as well despite one of the big breeders of them originally stating otherwise.

I do not know if Bells have been tested yet, but looking at them shouldn't leave much doubt that they are T+ as well.

As for Tremper's FAQs, well I take it with a huge grain of salt as they are if nothing else brilliant marketing. I do know that I have heard reports of increased births of deformed geckos using his incubation method and obviously in this thread his Jungle/Stripe claims are being called into question.
 
Seamus - I finally am back . . .

I did have the chance to breed back those albino x melanistic hets to a Temperature colored male Tremper - (lots of white). They have laid.

My goal is actually opposite - I want to try and produce almost all white albinos. I am cooking the eggs at 89 degrees to induce the white coloration. My male albino has very obscure bands of light yellow on it - so maybe the combination will produce more and more white. We'll see.

IN honor of you - I am going to take a set of eggs and incubate them at 80-82 and see what happens on the other end of the spectrum. My guess is - Het for ugly!! LOL

Oh, and Wax Worm Fan - you are a natural born skeptic, aren't you? I've met Ron Tremper in person, and find it hard to believe that he would mis-lead people. I'm usually a pretty good judge of character so I'm sticking to my opinion. To each his own, I guess.

Oh yeah - Website ad - "www.powergeckos.com"

Monte
 
Hey Monte :D

Were you following the recent thread on incubation temperature influencing color over on KS? A few things came to light, the most significant being:

* A large percentage of eggs incubated this way by KelliH hatched out deformed.


Another thing that was discussed was Tremper's withholding husbandry information in regards to chameleons early on (SFGeckos mentioned this)


There was another thread on jungle/stripe genetics, which Tremper claims is a simple recessive trait. I now disagree with this after hatching a jungle from a normal (bell albino) x stripe pairing.


And then there's the giants. Today there was a discussion on KS over whether or not someone's baby might be a giant. The discussion went in the direction of someone quoting Tremper's figures for "Moose" at various ages. When I replied that I know of hatchlings with similar or better physical attributes (and gave one specific example) the poster was shocked and incredulous regarding this "huge" baby.



I'd consider myself a Skeptic were it not for my daily showers and comfortable clothing! ;)
 
I read that . . .

. . . about Kelli's problems with the temperature. I dare say that 100 eggs is not definitive, but it does cause concern.

I've had more deformities this year too - from my cool incubator. 3 of them so far, all died. I can't figure it out - husbandry is all the same (exquisite husbandry - LOL) - good stock - etc, but just three mysterious deaths - all with paw problems.

I'm just playing around with temp on the albino's though, so I don't have much to compare with I guess.

Keep on showering.

Monte
 
i know this an old thread

BUT i have in front of me a true-"striper" whos parents are a red-stripe and a bold jungle ! ODD I KNOW
 
Steve, those links don't work, can you post the pictures on this thread?

Thanks!
 
quoting myself:

This brings me to the striped/jungle, what's recessive, what's dominant, etc debate. According to my own breedings since 2000, stripe and jungle are GENETIC and with my breedings are recessive, with jungle being dominant over stripe. I, however, can't explain why jungle is dominant over stripe. I just know that jungle X jungle yields jungles and stripe X stripe yield stripes, but stripe X jungle yields jungles or a mix. I also know this on the het level through breedings of my former male tremper albino to a jungle and a striped female. The albino het offpsring were jungles or stripes. Breedings of those offspring to each other resulted in normals, albinos, jungles, and 1 striped. The ratios were close to 9:3:3:1, which is the ratio one would expect if testing to see if a trait is genetic. Also, when I say jungle or stripe I'm also inferring that they have a either a striped or abnormally patterned tail. This isn't to say that you could have a partial stripe/jungle" with a normal tail and produce 100% striped or jungle offspring. Knowing this makes me wonder if the abberant body and tail are 2 separate traits, but maybe on the same chromosome. If this is the case, then when these chromosomes independently assort, both traits are expressed, but if crossing over occurs near those 2 traits, maybe one or the other gets expressed.
Click to expand...

I've been doing the above cross since 2001. Unfortunately I've never kept any of the offspring to go for an F<sub>2</sub> generation.

Steve:
There was another thread on jungle/stripe genetics, which Tremper claims is a simple recessive trait. I now disagree with this after hatching a jungle from a normal (bell albino) x stripe pairing.
Click to expand...

Before jumping to conclusions, question the integrity of your bell. The bell line came from captives. I'm not sure what Mark Bell works with, but who knows if the captive colony that yielded the bell albino didn't have the jungle or stripe gene.

I will be re-doing my above project with Rainwater albinos this year. They'll be the only geckos I breed, Rainwater male X stripe female.

They are 2 of only 6 leos I plan to keep. Now, Kelli, I might need that jungle female back. LOL

what would be best would to breed striped and jungles into normals (preferrably WC normals) and completely out-cross and just breed for those 2 traits. Once one has "pure" examples then try proving it. Unfortunately Tremper has got just about every single one of his "traits" in most of his leos somehow. Case in point is him losing the first albino (she was a runt) and using her Het brother to breed into all his morphs and then crossing back to one another for the production of albinos. That explains why out of 10 eggs from a Albey Male Tremper X Ron Jungle I got 9 hatchlings, 1 dead egg, 4 hatchlings were normal and 5 were jungle. That's PRETTY damn close to a 1:1 ratio one would expect to see in a Mendelian RECESSIVE trait.

Chris
 
one other point...


HAS ANYONE NOT LEARNED A THING FROM READING ANY OF MY GENETICS POSTS?

One other issue...

Actually Seamus, to my knowledge Rainwaters are T+ as well despite one of the big breeders of them originally stating otherwise.
Click to expand...


At the time of the "stating" NOONE knew if there were T- or T+ albinos. Everyone was just merely ASSUMING based on physical appearance of the (aka phenotype) , at the then time, TWO strains of albino (Rainwater and Tremper).


<u><b>ALL</u></b> 3 strains of albinos (Bell, Tremper, Rainwater) are forms of TYROSINE POSITIVE albinism. Tony Gamble did the study to prove this and somewhere I have the paper on it.
 
simple explanation for stripe X jungle = a mix

one of your test- geckos is striped and also is het for jungle or vice versa ! i dont see any reason for debate that jungle / stripe in genetic ! it is in fact genetic ( not all of them ) and it is beleived , that stripe , jungle,reverse-stripe, and zig-zag all come from the same " jungle" gene , just selectively bred to appear different ! maybe somehow changing the gene ? (no idea) because supposedly reverse X reverse = reverse and zig zag x zz will give you zig zig , unless these are rons geckos , since they are all possible het for some other pattern ! it is true and "no-news" that striped are selectively bred jungles !! my question here is by selctively breeding for stripes , did the gene change? to ... now be almost 2 or 4 almost separate genes ? variants ? (inthe case of stripe , reverse and zig zag coming from jungles ) i have talked to people like HQ reps , that breed stripes to stripes and get some jungles , even said they got a banded strange enough ! now the person i just bought my striper from (dan lubinsky), bred bold jungle to red stripe and got all stripes ( im pretty sure this is what he said ) and i did see pix of three of the "stripers "(including mine) so people are getting different results ! my results will be thrown off since my jungle is likely to be het for the other patterns also BUT WE CAN ALL ADD OUR FINDINGS IN HERE ......WILL BE INTERESTING !
 
USAGECKOS said:
Steve, those links don't work, can you post the pictures on this thread?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Jeanne, this thread is a year and a half old :)

Old pictures...

Jungle het Bell, I miss him.....
Ray.jpg


His father
fred.gif


I don't have a picture of his mom uploaded.

A sibling that I'm fond of..
puck2.jpg
 
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