Posting responses in the classifieds

This has been a source of some debate for a while now. Many people seem to be in favor of keeping the classifieds open to responses - the most common reasons given include (in no particular order) 1) it is easier to post questions in the ad than to PM/email the seller, 2) it allows a means to notify people of known issues with a seller (ie. posting a link to a BOI thread), 3) it allows a means to point out that an animal/product is being misrepresented or misidentified.
I can accept #s 2 + 3 pretty easily, and can at least acknowledge that some people might not check PMs, and that using the site's email system sometimes runs into problems with spam filters...so, in some cases, posting to an ad might be an effective way to initiate communication with the seller.

The posting of comments in ads does become a problem, though, when people chastise the seller (or prospective buyers); when people jump in trying to sell their own animals; when somebody tries to point interested parties toward another breeder/seller, etc.

I have suggested to a number of people that they should address this topic here, but nobody followed through. Since I think it is a valid concern, and (IMO) an increasingly common problem, I decided to start the thread myself.
One of the things I would like to see discussed is where people think the lines should be drawn.... Is it acceptable accuse somebody of doctoring photos? What about somebody posting about their opinion of the seller's husbandry (this can range from disputing described feeding practices, to comments about dirty water bowls or soiled cages)? Should a person be allowed to chastise a buyer for missing a detail, like the seller's statement that he will not ship? Should someone be allowed to harass a seller for selling WC? What about the negative comments about "flippers"? Commenting on a prospective buyers lack of experience/knowledge? What about pointing out issues regarding the legality of keeping a type of animal? Here's a good one - what about people posting how overpriced the animal is (especially with sarcastic comments, or mention of other people selling for less)? Should it be acceptable for members to intervene on a seller's behalf? What about on a buyer's?
Gotta run, hopefully I'll be able to get back to add more to this soon....but don't wait for me. I really do want to see your opinions.

Is it acceptable accuse somebody of doctoring photos?

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I don't think it is acceptable unless they have proof at the time of the accusation and lay it out with the accusation.

What about somebody posting about their opinion of the seller's husbandry (this can range from disputing described feeding practices, to comments about dirty water bowls or soiled cages)?

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I think this should be directed more towards the B.O.I.. Isn't the point of the B.O.I. supposed to be for people to do their homework before a purchase? Granted accusations still shouldn't be thrown out without some sort of evidence to support the claim, but it shouldn't be thrown into a comment on the ad.

Should a person be allowed to chastise a buyer for missing a detail, like the seller's statement that he will not ship?

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I think they should be able to point it out, but chastising them for it is unacceptable.

Commenting on a prospective buyers lack of experience/knowledge?

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If it was a helpful comment, such as where do get more information or what they would need, etc. to care for the animal, sure. But if they are making negative comments, it shouldn't be allowed.

What about pointing out issues regarding the legality of keeping a type of animal?

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This should be pointed out. If someone is selling an animal that is illegal for most people to keep etc., then yes. If the person is making claims that are known to be wrong, then they should be warned then temporarily gagged.

Here's a good one - what about people posting how overpriced the animal is (especially with sarcastic comments, or mention of other people selling for less)?

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This shouldn't be allowed. It is unfair to both the seller and the buyer. It is unfair to the seller because it may lose them business, and unfair to the buyer because they may be directed to a cheaper, lower quality animal. They should be allowed to do their own homework and make their own decision and not be persuaded by others into their decision.

Should it be acceptable for members to intervene on a seller's behalf? What about on a buyer's?

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I personally don't think they should for the simple fact that someone should be able to represent themself.

Well.... there's my oppinion, time for your guys'!

Cody,
Thank you for taking the time to respond.

When I mentioned husbandry, I wasn't really talking so much about 1st hand knowledge of the seller's practices...I was referring to the way people step in to say why they disagree with something a seller says he does, or making comments about a dirty water bowl or soiled cage in the ad's picture. I will agree, though, that many of the "discussions" that evolve in the classifieds are better suited to other areas of the site.

Should a person be allowed to chastise a buyer for missing a detail, like the seller's statement that he will not ship?
I think they should be able to point it out, but chastising them for it is unacceptable.

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I'm not sure who you are saying should be able to point it out....the seller, or any third (fourth, fifth, or sixth) party that wants to add his 2 cents worth? I have no problem with a seller stating that "as mentioned in the ad, I am unwilling (or unable) to ship this animal"...but I do have a problem with Joe Reader chiming in with "he said he doesn't ship, idiot. learn to read" (don't get me wrong - I have certainly been tempted to make that very post a number of times...but the voice of reason - or is it just a sense of decorum? - triumphs.

It would seem that price criticisms are unneccessary: if the price is too high, the item simply won't be bought. Unlike legalities having to do with shipping or keeping, where there may be some who are unaware, and pointing out those facts might be a service, there doesn't seem to be any valid reason to carp about price.

And, to me, price negotiations are a private matter- if one wants a price break for buying half a dozen animals instead of one, that should be between you and the seller, because the seller may have reasons he may not want to give that same deal to others who might ask.

There are some items for sale that almost universally provoke comment: venomoids, wolves, bats. Perhaps there should be a Hell classified section.

There do seem to be some buyers who lock their threads just to sidestep these kinds of problems, counting on a potential buyer to pm or email their interest.

Every seller has the option to lock his or her thread to prevent chatter in the Classifieds. I do it because I got tired of all the "nice snake, wish I had the money" comments.

Sorry, but I just don't have time right now to go into much depth about this problem. But I am requesting all mods to get a bit more hardlined about people thinking trash talk is OK in the classifieds here. I just banned a member for 30 days who decided to ignore my warning to him about his actions. I will support similar actions by the mods towards other members who engage in this sort of destructive behavior on this site. Fire one warning shot, then shoot out a kneecap if he or she persists.

I think if a seller is selling something questionable, or OBVIOUSLY doctored photos, there should be an ability to report an ad. (unless its there already...)

The comments " THATS DOCTORED" when, it probably isnt, or might just be lighting, dont.... really belong there.

Sure, there are legitimate questions posted... but theres alot of useless stuff posted too, that.... i think has sort of gotten out of hand in a way.

pricing complaints was a big one too. i dont care how much someone sells something for... it will either sell, or not. thats the sellers choice.

Ive posted comments in the past on ads. Ill try to just PM the seller about my concerns in the future.

My feelings are there should be no responses possible in the classifieds. A select few people on this site want to stick there nose in every ad and every thread on fauna. I guess looking to bump up there post counts. They have absolutely no interest in purchasing a persons animals or goods but wants to question the ad. I recently saw one that the nosy person was totally wrong in questioning. They would have never purchased the animal and I do know this for a fact yet they wanted to insinuate that there was something wrong with the seller’s animal. They made it sound like there was a major flaw in the animal when in fact it was simply a pattern on the animal. I looked the pic over and saw it but knew what it was. There post killed the guy’s chance on selling the animal even though he posted new pics just to appease this person. I was interested in the animal but did not buy it due to the price. I am also sick of seeing people bitching about someone else’s high prices. It is none of there business what a person sells at but they want to make a big deal about it and not smart enough to understand it’s none of there business. If it’s ridiculously high it’s not going to sell. Plain and simple so shut up and keep your thoughts to yourself is how I look at it. A pm won’t boost there post count but will keep a bunch of worthless crap out of the ads.

Just my thoughts on it

jim0602 said:

My feelings are there should be no responses possible in the classifieds. A select few people on this site want to stick there nose in every ad and every thread on fauna. I guess looking to bump up there post counts. They have absolutely no interest in purchasing a persons animals or goods but wants to question the ad. I recently saw one that the nosy person was totally wrong in questioning. They would have never purchased the animal and I do know this for a fact yet they wanted to insinuate that there was something wrong with the seller’s animal. They made it sound like there was a major flaw in the animal when in fact it was simply a pattern on the animal. I looked the pic over and saw it but knew what it was. There post killed the guy’s chance on selling the animal even though he posted new pics just to appease this person. I was interested in the animal but did not buy it due to the price. I am also sick of seeing people bitching about someone else’s high prices. It is none of there business what a person sells at but they want to make a big deal about it and not smart enough to understand it’s none of there business. If it’s ridiculously high it’s not going to sell. Plain and simple so shut up and keep your thoughts to yourself is how I look at it. A pm won’t boost there post count but will keep a bunch of worthless crap out of the ads.

Just my thoughts on it

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Since i think you mean me....

Why dont you just post my name jim? I have no problem admitting when i made a mistake. Could i have Pmed him? yes. He also could delete the ad and start a new one. He didnt, and thusly showed he was willing to prove that the animal was fine. I made a mistake. and we conversed through PM as well.

I was not actually referring to you. I know the ad you are referring to and did feel you were wrong there also in the end. I believe in chat I remember you saying you were getting a chondro and if I’m correct you would indeed have legitimate reasoning for questioning the snake in the ad. So much talk in there though that I could easily be wrong but regardless that is not the ad I was referring to. I simply believe there is entirely too much clutter on fauna in general and that would be an area easy to cleanup. 99.9% of my questioning or chastising is through pm and if I can do it everyone can.

jim0602 said:

I was not actually referring to you. I know the ad you are referring to and did feel you were wrong there also in the end. I believe in chat I remember you saying you were getting a chondro and if I’m correct you would indeed have legitimate reasoning for questioning the snake in the ad. So much talk in there though that I could easily be wrong but regardless that is not the ad I was referring to. I simply believe there is entirely too much clutter on fauna in general and that would be an area easy to cleanup. 99.9% of my questioning or chastising is through pm and if I can do it everyone can.

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Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people think cleaning up the clutter is easy. Because they aren't doing the defining of what constitutes "clutter", nor the ones that will have to clean it up, nor take the flak when someone gets offended that their post got treated as "clutter".

In my opinion, simply blocking replies to ads is rather short sighted. Email reliability is in the toilet because of all the spam blockers that everyone is implementing. So quite likely email replies to ads will not get through. So where does that leave the seller? Why, probably complaining to me that their animals are not selling, being unaware that prospective buyers have been unable to contact the seller. Then on the flip side of that same coin, I will get complaints from the potential buyers because their emails to the sellers are not being replied to, unaware that the emails are just not getting through. So I get EVERYONE complaining to me. Certainly everyone can use private messages, but do you REALLY want to limit your contact with prospective buyers to simply that one avenue? Some sellers might WANT to have replies to their ads simply because it helps them not have to answer the same questions over and over again via another means. So I just tell them "tough!" because some others don't like replies to their ads? Guess who gets the complaints about that?

Yeah, it all seems EASY on casual examination, now doesn't it? But the devil is most certainly in the details when you take a harder look at the actual issues.

So, with all that in mind when I first set this up, I gave the CHOICE to members posting ads on how they want to deal with that particular issue. That appeared to be the only FAIR way to handle this situation.

um.. my thoughts..

I admit I have once or twice commented on an ad. But usually if I have an issue or question, I pm the person.

To be honest, I usually would just complain about my thoughts in chat. LOL..

I do think that people need to be more respectful of others.. On here, as well as in general.

It seems that people these days seem to think that everyone's business is there's.

anywho..

I suppose that is one perk to being able to lock an ad, that way you know people will have to PM you.

Just to make this clear, Rich, my purpose for starting this thread was not to initiate a change in policy regarding people's ability to post responses...
I just wanted to get some discussion going on the topic because there has been an increase in problematic posts lately. By drawing attention to the issue, and helping to bring out what people's thoughts are about the type of posting that is inappropriate, hopefully people will pause before clicking to submit. At the very least, now that it is becoming known that we are going to be less tolerant (and you have made a definite statement in support of that), the warnings and infractions will be less of a surprise.


This discussion is open to all, including those that feel they should be able to post negatively...my only statement is that I would like things to stay constructive. Disagreement and debate is one thing, attacks are another.

For legalities, yes I think that should be allowed. If nothing else, the buyer/seller might not be aware that something is illegil, and so it would be prevented.

For stolen/doctored pictures, yes I think that should be allowed. But only if the person posting can prove it.

I think comments about a dirty dish, or cage.. and comments about price are unneeded. If the picture shows a dirty water dish, then EVERYONE who looks at the ad will see the dirty water dish, so it shouldn't need to be pointed out. Prices are set at the discretion of the seller, and if the buyer likes the animal enough to pay that much, then it's a fair sale.

At NO point do I believe that someone should post another animal for sale, or direct a potential buyer to a different seller. If there's an animal for sale, the seller can post his/her own thread.

Many comments can be made via PM. Since the seller can always lock their ad, I think it's just a case of be polite in posting on people's sale ads. If a potential buyer posts and says "Hey, I wanna buy that cobra" and you KNOW the person is a underage/moron/sicko/etc who in NO case should buy it.. then you can PM the seller and say so. If it is a legal thing, i.e. a 12 year old wants to buy a cobra in a state that doesn't allow it, then it would fall under legalities.

All of the above is merely my opinion, and as such should be measured by weight, and not volumne, as some settling may have occured during shipping.

So someone posts an ad for a boa for sale. And in the picture is a big ol stink pickle right next to the Boa. If I ask them how much they want for just the turd, is that OK?

Personally, I could care less if people can comment or not. You ask them to respond to an email address, which you provide as a link in the ad, and they comment in the ad, or send you a PM, instead.

But there are occasions when being able to, does come in handy, as you pointed out in your first post. Like when someone misrepresents something, or a known bad guy shows up again.

I'm not sure who you are saying should be able to point it out....the seller, or any third (fourth, fifth, or sixth) party that wants to add his 2 cents worth? I have no problem with a seller stating that "as mentioned in the ad, I am unwilling (or unable) to ship this animal"...but I do have a problem with Joe Reader chiming in with "he said he doesn't ship, idiot. learn to read" (don't get me wrong - I have certainly been tempted to make that very post a number of times...but the voice of reason - or is it just a sense of decorum?

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I agree with you on the pointing out the shipping issue. If the seller doesn't make a point to point out that he does not ship, it may be ok for someone else to point it out, in a poltie and respectful manner. I think something like "I dont think you noticed that the seller isn't willing to ship. Just thought I'd be helpful and point it out" would be acceptable, but I don't think something like "Hey, stupid. Can't you see that the seller isn't willing to ship?" is in no way acceptable.