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Discussion topic, pertaining to larger reptiles, and competent keeping.

R

Randall Turner

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This question, or it may end up series of questions, not sure as I type this. Pertains to keeping larger reptiles, specifically larger monitors and smaller crocodilians. What do you think constitutes suitable knowledge and skill to keep these reptiles? I ask as I've personally had the desire to one day keep dwarf caiman or similar, but I have avoided pursuing the ownership of said animals up to this point in my life. (will likely still remain something I desire to try keeping but avoid actually doing.) So what level of knowledge do you feel is required and skill to be a successful keeper? The majority of my personal experience is in keeping boas, with these animals barring a few extreme issues which would disqualify someone as a suitable keeper they are often good beginner reptiles, so thusly they do not rank on the level required to keep crocodilians or larger monitors. So where would the disqualifying measurement be found? Would it come down to the ability to provide a suitable enclosure? Or?

I know it is sort of a vague question over all, but I thought it would be a good discussion topic to see what the census is on what is deemed appropriate qualifications to work with said animals.
 
I think that this is a very pertinent question given the new legislation against larger constrictors you are facing in the USA.

I know that no one wants legislation against their personal freedoms, but it does seem to me that this situation has been brought about because some irresponsible people HAVE released large reptiles into the wild, and allowed them to get into child-endangering situations.

I wonder whether some form of pre-qualification or licensing may have prevented the current proposed laws, and I'd be interested to hear about what kind of requirement may be suggested. I mean, many people keep very large reptiles in utter safety, but I'd guess that most of us would not suggest a burmese python as a suitable first snake for a teenager, for example.
 
I think the biggest factor in that skill set would be common sense, which, unfortunately, many people lack. I've kept large monitors of various temperaments, and had some interesting experiences...I've also kept crocodilians.
One needs to be able to provide suitable housing for the animal...escapes should not be considered acceptable. (Imagine walking into a room and finding a 6ft nile loose, or a 6ft caiman on the floor in front of you).
Proper husbandry is fairly straight forward - a bit of research and effort and most people can manage....but handling can be a different story.
(duty calls...I'll continue later)
 
I think it is more than just, "knowledge is power," approach, or what amount of knowledge is qualifing enough to be deemed a suitable keeper? It's a question of application; i've known people that have all of the knowledge at the fingertips but are just plain lazy. They could quote husbandry requirements of obscure species but when it came to their own animals, they were lacking.

To me, this whole mandating husbandry requirements(which I support) and potentially having people tested over their knowledge, is like taking the drivers test; people take it and pass but most likely, they will still end up pissing me off on the road.
 
Trynt said it perfectly and I agree with that opinion. Talk is cheap and it's not hard to make believe that a persons knows how to care for and properly maintain a large varanid or crocodilian species.

I to have owned both (still do) and most would be keepers swear they know, they've read, bought this and blah blah blah. But once they get the animal that's when their true colors shine.

Even if you determine what constitutes suitable knowledge there's a good chance unless they're well known and long term, there's a really good chance they're fibbing.

It's not just the enclosure that should be deemed suitable in my opinion. Big animals require a big food budget, big time, and big energy when cared for properly. If all of that cannot be provided then it's not suitable.

Just my two cents. Hope it makes sense.
 
I would have to agree with all of you. I myself have owned some younger crocodillians (american alligator) and they are a big chore, even when smaller. How I look at, you want to approach this possible "purchase" with as much information as you can. I am not talking about just information about the species and how to take care of them. Find out the cost involved with feeding, the amount of time spent cleaning, how often etc. I have never owned a large crocodillian, so as far as knowledge there I am lacking, and honestly I don't have the desire to own one again. You might want to talk to somebody on here that you know is knowledgable about them. Aquatic turtles was too much for me, so I stuck with my boas.
 
In Australia, you have to have a licence to keep any sort of reptile, and what licence you get depends on your experience and facilities. It's an interesting concept. For more information check out the link here (some info posted below if you can't get to the link)

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/wildlifelicences/GettingAReptileKeepersLicence.htm

QUOTE from site:

"Getting a reptile keeper's licence

"If you wish to keep reptiles, you must get a licence from the NPWS. The NPWS reptile licensing and record-keeping system allows us to monitor what reptile species are being kept, bred and traded amongst enthusiasts.

"People who hold a licence can obtain reptiles from other people who legally hold them, but they are not allowed to be sold through pet shops and must not be taken from the wild. There are two classes of reptile keeper licences:

"Class 1 licence

"A Class 1 licence authorises you to keep most of the common species that are easy to look after. A person with just a basic knowledge of the needs of reptiles should have no difficulty meeting the needs of these species.

"Some of the animals which can be kept under a Class 1 licence are:

* eastern snake-necked turtle
* eastern water dragon
* eastern bearded dragon
* common bluetongue
* children's python
* carpet python.


"The fee is $60 for a licence lasting up to two years, or $120 for up to five years. Anyone over the age of 10 years can get a Class 1 licence. If you're under the age of 16 years, you must have parental/guardian consent.

"Class 2 licence

"You'll need a Class 2 licence if you want to keep species that are difficult to keep, rare in the wild or dangerous venomous snakes. A person with a Class 2 licence can also keep Class 1 species.

The Class 2 licence is only available to people who are over the age of 18 years who have had at least two years experience in caring for Class 1 reptiles. Some of the species that can be kept under a class 2 licence include:

* lace monitor
* frilled lizard.


"Additional criteria need to be met before venomous species may be kept. The venomous snakes in this licence class are grouped into three sub-categories and the most dangerous species can be kept only by the more experienced keepers. The licence fee is $60 per year, $120 for two years or $240 for five years."
 
in my opinion its just a matter of experience, i feel bad saying this but i have never read any reptile book in my life, but from a young age my father kept large boas and gators, so it was only natural that i began to do the same. currently i have a 3.5' nile monitor, a 4' black throat monitor and a 2' american gator, all very easy to handle. but, i have to spend 1.5 hours per night with them(handling them, cleaning them etc...) so i believethat it really comes down to you experience, if youve never had large monitors why not try a savannah? they get pretty large and are very easy to keep docile, itsa great starter monitor for people to get comfortable with.
 
kward12 said:
if youve never had large monitors why not try a savannah? they get pretty large and are very easy to keep docile, itsa great starter monitor for people to get comfortable with.
Click to expand...

See and I could not disagree more with that species being a suitable first time monitor. The reason being is 98% of the people buying them are under the impression that they stay small, only eat bugs they're whole lives and have small requirements. VERY much not the case. When cared for properly this species easily will hit almost 4 foot and require at least a 6x5x5 and need proper meals. Most do not live past the age of one or two years old due to improper husbandry and or obesity.

That to me just quickly reading a in store care sheet or talking with someone who's not kept the species does not mean they have suitable knowledge or all the other factors that require a true suitable home for an animal. It takes more then just a quick read. It takes (as I already said) suitable time, space and money. The average joe buyer, 95% of the time doesn't have any of the above.

On a bit of a side note. I feel that the US should adopt Australia's permit laws. Would really help and keep things safe. I've said it for years and still do.
 
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TailsWithScales said:
See and I could not disagree more with that species being a suitable first time monitor. The reason being is 98% of the people buying them are under the impression that they stay small, only eat bugs they're whole lives and have small requirements. VERY much not the case. When cared for properly this species easily will hit almost 4 foot and require at least a 6x5x5 and need proper meals. Most do not live past the age of one or two years old due to improper husbandry and or obesity.

That to me just quickly reading a in store care sheet or talking with someone who's not kept the species does not mean they have suitable knowledge or all the other factors that require a true suitable home for an animal. It takes more then just a quick read. It takes (as I already said) suitable time, space and money. The average joe buyer, 95% of the time doesn't have any of the above.

On a bit of a side note. I feel that the US should adopt Australia's permit laws. Would really help and keep things safe. I've said it for years and still do.
Click to expand...

you make a great point! what i should have more clearly stated was that i think of savanah's as good starter monitors for people who want to own "large" monitors, i say this because of thier temperment, as we all know it is much easier in 99 percent of casses to handle a 3 foot sav. than a 3 foot nile, so if the person whats to get used to handling a LARGE monitor this is a good one to start with IMHO.
 
Actually, I would recommend starting with something smaller, but feisty. If you're going to get a big, potentially dangerous animal, you should have experience in how to care for an animal without taking unnecessary risks. Choosing a large, docile species as a precursor to getting an unpredictable giant species isn't going to prepare you, it's likely to make you complacent.
If you can't take care of a 3 foot animal without getting lacerated, don't even think about getting a crocodile.
 
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