to reptile dealers, collectors, wholesalers

breeders and dealers need to represent the herp hobby with a better approach.  Stop chasing after the big bucks and make your life meaningful !!!!!  buying wholesale, keeping them barely alive, then selling them for bucks at a reptile show jsut shows how horrible of a person you are.  You think you're getting away with this but you're not.  God sees everything.

The Humane Society is trying to end the entire reptile hobby !!!!! Captive breeders, and herpers that practice excellent husbandry are the only ones that are making the hobby respected.  ALL you import wholesalers are the ones who are being used as evidence to stop the reptile trade ( ahem.. JP Pets ).   http://www.hsus.org/ace/12045

Imform your buyers of the herps they are ABOUT to buy.  You should care more for the reptile then you should for the money !!!  The money i make from selling my reptiles all goes into buying them better and bigger housing and more food and more heat elements.

You should only keep a reptile if you can provide a better life for them under your care then they would have in the wild.

thank you all very much for reading this !!  now go feed your reptiles... You are their whole world, even if they don't show it most times.

Keep them HOT, Feed them ALOT,

justin    

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

get off your high horse. Telling others to never get a WC animal is stupid. Where the heck did you think all the CB animals came from in the first place. That's right they were all once WC. Any reptile in captivity is better off then it was in the wild. 99.9% of the animals don't have external paracites like the ones in the wild. I need to stop before I rant forever. People like you get on my nerves. We all need to educate people not tell them not to get Herps. Frank

All I can say is:

1. This post WILL be deleted once the Webslave wakes up....you didn't post your FULL name

2. This post belongs on the general discussion forum....the BOI is not the place to argue about the industry as a whole.....

3. depending on the species in concern, sometimes WC is just about the only way to go.  For a couple simple reasons.  First, they might not be economical to breed (anoles and such) second, they might not HAVE any readily available CB specimens.  

4. Dealers and wholesalers make up a VERY small portion of the reptile show stock.  I know because I HOST a reptile show.  We do have some import dealers, but the majority of dealers are of the sort that buy entre clutches of CB babies to resell at wholesale price.  

5. I sell HOT snakes....not heated.....venomous.  I MUST inform my customers about their purchases.  I MUST follow laws of states that I don't even live in.  I MUST make sure that the person buying the animals I sell is ready and prepared for such a purchase.  Now you can tell me how BAD I am for doing so....well, people buy them, people want them, I'll keep breeding and selling them........

6. Personally, I believe that ANY captive care is probably better than the situations in the wild.  YOU go live in the wild and tell me you wouldn't have been better off at home.  Regular meals, no predators, don't have to look for a mate, most times one is provided FOR you......

7. like Frank said.....WHERE DID THEY COME FROM ORIGINALLY......uh, let's see....the WILD.....

8. How many "import wholesalers" have you known, personally?  How many have you witnessed take care of their animals.  How many have you seen bring IN sick animals and make them at least healthy enough to sell?  How many have you seen spend time and money on a snake just to make it WORTH it's wholesale value?  More times than none, these people are responsible giving the animal a second chance.  More "import dealers" treat the animals for external and internal parasites.  Possibly take them to a vet, and PAY for more treatment.  Then they turn around and sell the animals for "bucks" at a reptile show JUST to cover the overhead of keeping the animal alive that long.  

I think you might have to step back and take another look at the trade, my friend.  There are those out there that might fall into your little catagory, but the majority you find will be responsible herp keepers themselves.  Our personal motto is that we won't sell anything to anybody unless it's in a condition that WE would buy it ourselves.  Most dealers feel this way, otherwise, why would they have bought it in the first place.  Sure they're in it for money....IT"S THEIR JOB.....they NEED to make a living don't they?  But at the same time, they don't WANT to end up like JP either........

Thanks,

WELL   i dont post many replies  but this 1    i am going to have to ad my 2 cents in on ...
JUSTIN  ,  lemme say this  1  dont come here preaching  your beliefs onto other people ..  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
there is nuthing wrong  with puchasing WC  animals  for resale  
if you did  your homework    importing  is not a HUGE MONEY MAKER  or BIG BUCKS as u put it  
yes some money can be made  but the HIGH DOLLAR  animals  are actually  the CB  ones  
and i can tell u this  if you ask any person who has ever bought from me  i take extremely great care of any animal i sell ...
LIKE I SAID DO YOUR HOMEWORK before u go spouting off at the mouth
and i can garuntee u this  i have never made the BIG BUCKS  from selling imported animals   again ask my people that have bought from me    they didnt spend a fortune  , but the animals  they recieved    were as good  as  CB ...  YES i am sure there are a few out there  that practice what u were preaching  but i tell u this  i am small time  trying to make a name for myself  in this HOBBY/BUSINESS  and by you running off at the mouth   hurts the small guys  cause your telling people not to buy  WC  and your telling us   not to SELL them  ...
well then i suggest  you send  me  lets say $100,000.oo  and i will purchase nuthing but  CB breeders   and then maybe i will  sell  only   CB  animals ...
but until then   i will keep selling my extremely healthy  WC animals  to the  public  REMEBER   they make the choice to purchase  what i  sell  ( IM NOT FORCING THEM TO )
and if  GOD SEES  SO MUCH like u say he does  then he will SEE   that  i use the money to help with ( BILLS ,RENT , FOOD , to take care of my family   and  to purchase OTHER ANIMALS )       so i bet if GOD   would see u using his name like your doing  hmmmmm   i dont think he be to happy about it  ...???  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
shawn

I think that this post is a complete egotistical rampage.  It is for the most part, NOT THE IMPORTERS THAT ARE TO BLAME!  It is THE EXPORTERS! Have you ever seen what half of the mambas come in the country look like, do you know what they(The collectors) do to them after they catch them? Let me share a little insight with you, they like to catch a mamba, take(PULL) its fangs out so they do not get bit, and throw them in a bag, and send them to the importer, which has to try and save the poor thing! You know what is worse than that? sometimes when they pull the fangs out, they are so uneducated and/or ignorant, that they get parts of the jaw when they pull the fangs! I learned this little tid bit of information yesterday, when I got to see first hand, the results of this sickening practice. Needless to say there was no way to save the snake, as half of it's jaw was gone, only to be replaced by a nice incurable infection, the only thing that could be done, was to put the poor thing out of its misery swiftly. GO RANT ON ABOUT HOW IMPORTERS ARE SO BAD AND YOU ARE THE GREAT "TEACHER OF KNOWLEDGE" SOMEWHERE ELSE!
LOL
Kevin <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, Great post Viperhouse!
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> Kevin  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

RICH (webmaster)!!! ....Here is the PERFECT example of why we NEED "Real FULL Names" on this site! As you read the author's "rant"...do YOU give this lugnut ANY credibility??? I don't THINK so!!
Without real FULL names, anybody can say anything they want to, with COMPLETE immunity! You'd be opening up one BIG can of worms!
Now...As far as "Justin" is concerned...Although there ARE certain species of animals that should NEVER be taken out of the wild, your blanket statement is very naive! There are lots of species that have been SAVED by capture and breed projects (like the California Condor, for one&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>. MOST of the wild caught herps that come into this country are WELL taken care of! Sure, they MIGHT have a hard trip getting here, but, I bet if they had their choice, they'd take the trip! If they DO make it here, they usually have a MUCH better life! Heck! Look at all the PEOPLE that risk their lives to get to this country!...
Well, in any case...either USE your real FULL name...or GET A LIFE!! (and some guts&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
...Neil

ok ok,  i do have to say that he has a point about a couple other things (other than the import stuff) that shouldnt be ignored.  i think this board makes it obvious that there is certainly need for improvement in this trade...perhaps this needed to go under the "communication" thread, i dont know.  maybe this will get deleted.
but i think most of us agree that breeders, dealers, everybody involved in the industry needs to take more responsibility for the animals and the buyers--not selling sickly animals to quick make the buck before they die, help with customer support and educating the buyers as to how to take care of what they are buying, and using proper husbandry and sanitary conditions.
i hate to say it because i am a breeder myself, but some of the worst dealings i have had and the most problematic, sickly animals i have aquired have been from other breeders.  
 
maybe this is the right place to have this discussion because more breeders and dealers frequent this board than the general discussion board (i dont know, never been to the discussion board, lol)

so i'll dismount my 20ft tall horse now.
Dana

boy, i just reread the original post and this guy really did have a hostile approach.
try a redirect with less emotion and people might not get offended.
dana

Well.................
There is some truth in this post. There ARE creeps out there who don't give a rat's ass (excuse me), literally, for the reptiles they keep. I think more of the uninformed buyers who "forget" about the snake in the corner of their room. Get tired of buying mice and or paying for the heat.
I also do not see where he condemned WC animals, imports yes, he did make a reference to captive bred, but did not IMO condemn WC. Some animals WOULD be better off in the wild, but if WC animals were not used to clean out blood lines, the inbreeding would be way out of control. I know some people inbreed and that is their choice, I just do not think it is cool. Please do not start slamming me for my opinion, for it is just that, an opinion. I am not a scientist, I am just a herper with a habit.
I treat my animals well, I raise my own mice and rats (fun job)
and my 3 sons and hubby would probably agree that my hobby has almost taken priority in my life. All too often I see
ads that hit me the wrong way, like "Ugly but what a breeder" or , well....you know things along that line.
If exports were not allowed in our country, we would not have the opportunity to own some really incredible animals.
The Humane Society would do much better to monitor the conditions of the reptiles than to attempt to outlaw herpers.
I think people need to be responsible and that means protecting the animal from humans and humans from the animal.
For God's Sake People Use Your Heads.
Ann McCabe Miles

Uh, guys, this is the "general discussion" forum. At least, I think it is. I have been wrong before, though.
sue frederick

lol, i think webslave moved it over here to the general discussion board--it was on the boi this morning...
so i guess i have to take back my statement about never coming to the general discussion board...
dana

thank you Ann McCabe Miles.  

You people out there don't need to put me down or offend me or insult me.  I'm open to what you have to say.  Offending me just makes you look bad.  We need to be professional on this discussion.  If somebody insults me in their reply it will just result in me looking away from your post.  Offending me just makes you look like trailer trash and i'm not going to discuss this issue with a bunch of uneducated people.  Let's talk professionally.

i'm not an "pig-headed" person.  this is a discussion forum.  i'm expressing my opinion and i'm open to what you ALL have to say.  You can kindly explain to me your point of view on the mass import trade.  Importers DO MAKE ALOT OF MONEY !!  (refer to my original post and go to the HSUS link that describes this importation of reptiles as a big money maker.)

we need to respect each other as fellow reptile hobbyist... NOT go off putting one hobbyist down because of his/her views, but to explain to that person your views.

thank you,

justin



<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

lol ok justin ? im not bashing but obviouly you can read ? so wheres the last name ? Board rules !!!

Justin,  ok first off, since when is it wrong to make money?  Secondly, let's just say that for a moment your pipedream comes true and no more imported animals are allowed into the pet trade.  What do think will happen? The africans, south americans, etc. will stop catching them??  NO, I'll tell you what will happen, every single animal that would have entered the pet trade will instead enter the skin or food trade.  These animals are how those people feed their families.  They will still be out there everyday catching animals and selling them to the exporters.  The exporters will still sell every animal they can get their hands on.  
We can either take these animals into captivity and give them at least a shot at a long life, or they can be killed immediately skinned and eaten.   IMHO captivity sounds better.  Think I'm full of it check out the export statistics.  I believe the skin/food still outweighes pet trade in most countries. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

yes i looked into it and you are correct.  Reptiles are being skinned and eaten everywhere.  

To reply to the post before the last one... i'm NOT against the will to make money off selling herps.  i sell herps myself to generate funds to pay for bigger enclosures and more heating elements, and to pay for my books and tuitions.

What i am against is reptile dealers that KNOWINGLY sell sick herps to customers.  


i'm NOT against the good dealers that i see at every show selling healthy herps with excellent follow up support.

thanks,
justin wilkens

Justin,
I deleted your adds.

1. because you threatened to sue someone just because he called you a hypocrite.   You totally rag on reptile breeders.  Then when he calls you a hypocrite.....you threaten litigation.
You can dish it out but you can't take it.  You wanna go running to your brother who is a second year law student (which means he does not know a sh!t)...but I guess it makes you feel cool to brag about him.  My aunt is the Attorney general of the phillippines.  My uncle and grandfather and sisters boyfriend are all lawyers.............IT DOES NOT MAKE ME COOL!!

2.  But most importantly I deleted it to protect you.  You should not sign anything over the internet with your Marine whatever......

You have to keep your military life and your private life separate.

I had the experience of having my commander called.  He says all I have to do is keep the two lives separate...and not to sign anything invovling the military and It will be okay.
Keep that in mind private and you will go far.  

Also grow up a little.  I respected your opinion......but when I saw you threaten litigation because someone called you a hypocrite......well it makes us think twice about you.  It makes you look like a cry baby.

You are in the marines....You swore to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.  Then you want to infringe on someones first ammendment rights just because you got your little itty bitty private feelings hurt.

You lost your sales not because of what Thomas Davis wrote...you lost them because of the childish way you handled yourself when faced with adversity.

3.  You can Repost your add.  Sign your full name...but leave the military out of it.  I will delete any derogatory replies made to your add as soon as I see it.  I try to delete all derogatory replies on adds.  That is not the place for it really.

good luck with your herp career.
good luck with your military career.


p.s. reptiles are usually not allowed on post housing.

Also it through importation of WC that we discovered the blue tree monitors and new reptiles. I mean without WC how do we know how to breed a certain species. I mean everything orignate from WC animals. I'm not totally for imports but it is through imports taht we can strengthen the genetic diversity and blood line of C.B. animals. otherwise all the reptiles would be related to each other and we would have freaky mutations after couple decades.

Well this is also my .015 cent

Thanx

Winston <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  hahahahahahahaaa well,,,,,hahahahahahhaaa funny stuff ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, OIL WELL <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> ,,,,thomas davis T&Sreptile farm