Earmarks to look for in het pieds?

OK, I KNOW there are certain things that the big breeders (Ralph Davis, NERD, etc.) look for in determining which BP's may be het pieds but all they will divulge is that there are "earmarks" to look for. Can ANYONE please fill me in on this? I have asked and got told that you can tell hets from non hets with some degree of accuracy but NO ONE will let me in on this. How about helping out the "little guy" and not keeping these "trade secrets" to yourself. The reason I ask is because I have a female BP that exhibits an "earmark" that I was told was one to look for in a het pied. I am trying to verify the info. If anyone has any info, please let me know. Even if it's in a PM if you do not want to publicly reveal it. I would just like to know if I am on the "right track".

Breeders will not let out things like this. Its like Colonal Sanders telling you his recipe for chickem.

If you feel you ball is a het pied by certian markings, you may be wasting your time. This "earmark" only works if your animal was from some sort of pied breeding, ie. from a pied, het pied or pos het pied.

I was also informed that these certian signs are not always 100% proof possitive that the animal is carrying the pied gene.

I'm not looking for all eleven herbs and spices.............just one or two.

OK anyone wanna help here?
The animal may be a possible het and I just want to try and see if my gamble with it has the possibility of being worth it. There is an unusual "mark" on it that I was told by someone is an earmark to look for in het pieds. No it is not a ringer or bullseye or anything like that. It is unique and the moment I saw it, I bought the animal.
I am just trying to confirm the info, not trying to destroy the BP market.

Well it looks like I am on my own here.
I am now going to get a 100% het male and test my hunch.
Everyone knows about the visual het identifiers, why not a little communication?

I have heard three different descriptions of "earmarks" that het pied ball pythons supposedly have.

1.) Significant black striping where the ventral scales meet the dorsal scales on the belly (our female het has this, our male does not)

2.) a solid white belly down the middle (our female het has this trait also, our male has a dark greyish colored belly)

3.) striping on the tail (90% of the ball pythons we own have this, hets and normals both)

Which one did you hear about? Or is it something completely different? I personally don't think you can tell by looking at a possible het if it carries the piebald gene, but I would love to be proven wrong on this.

Thank you for replying. The white tail is what I was trying to verify. I had heard of it but had never actually seen it until this snake became available.

The last inch of her tail is solid white all the way around. It looks like someone dipped it into white paint.
I bought her because of this and the black striping on her stomach.

I am really hoping my gamble paid off.

Possible Het Pied Marker

Here is a pic of a 25% chance het pied female I hatched this year. My sister bought three 50% chance het males and two of them had varying degrees of this and about half of the offspring of those two also had it. It will take a few years for me to prove if there is anything to this but her is a pic for reference of what we are talking about:



Unfortunately, even if there is something to this it isn't a sure fire thing as apparently lots of for sure hets don't have it and some normals have something like it.

However, I am a believer that there a lot of random hets scattered in the wild population so while I wouldn't pay a lot extra for an animal not from a pied project that showed this I would still be interested.

Here is a breeder size female I picked up at a pet shop for $45 this year. She has a heck of an attitude and was full of tapeworms so I speculate that she might have been an import but I'm not really sure.



I'm not holding my breath on getting pieds from her but I'll try to breed her to a suspected het pied male this winter.

so your going to spend alot of money just to test your theory? buy an albino or somthing man.

Thank you ever so much for your constructive reply Lee.

Lee,

My goal is NOT to spend a lot of money. Then if it doesn't work out no big deal. I've already produced albinos starting with a single het male and breeding his daughters back to a possible het male (unfortunately the two albinos produced where all kinked up but I'll keep trying).

I'm confident that I'll eventually produce pieds from at least one of the three 50% chance males. Odds are on my side even if there isn't anything to the sign. It's just nice to look for some encouragement along the way since these projects take years and years. If the $45 pet store female turns out to be a het that's just gravy. If not, she was worth it as a normal breeder to produce more 25% chance het pied females with.

If you did it the "right way" and bought a $12,500 pair of het pieds when first available then more power to you. You should have produced pieds way ahead of me but of course even that isn't a sure thing as some animals just don't produce. If you can afford the better odds then buy for sure hets our outright morphs. Just don't begrudge the rest of us our chance to try with possible hets and to try to figure out shortcuts like sporadically visible hets.

earmarks

i was told this by alan bosch himself. the along both sides of the belly scales above the cloacal they will have the black pattern running parralell with the belly scales. normally the pattern would be broken up.
as said before, this earmark alone does not indicate het for pied. i have normals who have the same markings. but with pos hets it is an indicator of a better possibility.

Belly patterns
For what it's worth, here are my thoughts and experiences regarding this. I bought my first pair of hets from Jack Briggs at Designer Snakes. I had heard of the "het pied belly", but not mentioned it when I purchased the snakes. When I received them, sure enough, they both have it. Then I contacted Wes at Morph King. He had a few clutches to look at and sent pictures showing all the hatchlings in one clutch had the "het pied belly" and none of the hatchlings in the other clutch showed the trait. I ordered a male with the trait. Since then, I've asked about it when contacting breeders. One breeder (John Manser) indicated that 90% of the hets in his bloodline showed the trait and he has used it to sort out possible hets. Another breeder was selling 66% possibles. I inquired about a female with the trait. He said some of the males had it and admitted he holds back the females that have the trait. Since our population of pieds are descendents of Peter Kahl's imported baby. I believe that in one of the early pairings, the gene that causes this belly pattern got linked with the pied gene. Some bloodlines that resulted from this pairing and associated in-breeding in the early generations seem to carry this "linked" gene. Other bloodlines have completely variable belly patterns. Obviously the gene that causes this belly pattern can exist in any normal ball python as well. If you get a 100% het from a trusted breeder, it doesn't matter what it's belly looks like. It's a het. But I believe breeding hets that display the trait will aid in sorting out possible hets to hold back. All of the above is purely my thoughts and theories based upon my personal experiences. I may end up getting rid of some normal-bellied hets and keeping some normals with the belly trait, but I can assure you I won't be alone in this practice. Others are doing it quite successfully. And yes, I have a normal that shows the trait, and I don't ever plan to breed it into my pied bloodlines. How many het pieds do I have with normal bellies? One, a 2002 female from HCE, now Carolina Reptile Exchange. I think by 2003 all of Bruce Eisenmann's fakes were cherry-picked babies with a similar belly pattern. This topic has been discussed in the thread regarding the "Break In at Carolina Reptile Exchange".
Paul Fisher

Paul Fisher has attached this image:

Well, since the pic didn't work, I'll try a link to the page where the picture is. It's the same rant as my previous message, but in another thread. Ritchie had posted a similar reply while I was trying to get the image thing working.http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...&threadid=31975&perpage=5&pagenumber=119[/URL

This one works, I need more practice at this stuff!Thread about Bruce Eisenmann's ball pythons and business

I'm less worried about people cherry picking and selling the ones with the markers as hets than about people picking out their possible hets with the marker and selling the rest as the full percentage chance. Sounds like you found someone who admits to doing that with his "66%" chance females.

The linked gene theory does explain the sporadic nature of this sign but I'm still thinking it might be the actual pied gene it's self causing the marker. To me, it just looks too much like the beginning of pied white coming up from the bottom. Sure the white isn't as clean but in a pied it does look to be coming from underneath and the two black lines in the pieds could be the black lines at the edge of the belly in the visible hets. I don't have a good explanation for why it isn't always seen in hets. Perhaps a weaker allele of the normal gene allows it to show in some lines.

I agree with you about selling possible hets when you've sorted out what you believe are real hets, not good business! Personally, I'm not selling anything yet, but plan to sell possible hets as premium normals. If a possible doesn't have the belly trait and some siblings do, that possible will be sold at market value for similar normals. When somebody buys a possible het, what do they want? They want a het! I'm not willing to risk my reputation by selling possibles that don't prove out. Everybody should be aware that this belly trait is not hard to find in normals and watch out for scammers selling normals with this trait as $1,000+ 100% hets. Eisenmann uses false identities, changes business names every few years, and won't come forward on the BOI to defend his actions or his "hets". The BOI saga link in my previous posts is long but disturbing. This guy probably made $50,000+ in cash and trades by selling "hets", even "double-het, pied/albino" snakes. Next year we'll be proving out these animals and possibly plan a little "vacation" to South Carolina or at least get an interstate fraud investigation started. The BOI is a good thing!
Paul Fisher