Selling unhealthy wild caught animals at shows...

There is a discussion going on on another forum regarding the selling of freshly imported reptiles to the general public at shows. I posted my opinion and several people disagreed with me (I believe they are just trying to defend the shows in question at all costs&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>. Here is the link to the thread in question:
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Thanks guys.

Kelli,

I read the thread you were refering to on the discussion forum, and all I can say is WOW.  Who is this randal guy anyway?

As far as your question,  No, I don't think sick animals should be allowed at shows, or anywhere for that matter, but what kind of proof are you going to require?  A vets bill of health?  a physical exam of all animals on display?  Proof of LTC?  its hard to say.

It seems to me that this particular issue was started by someone who had no business buying the animal he did.  It sounds like the vendor hid nothing.  He said they were recent imports, he said he knew nothing about them (I assume he meant those particular animals and not the species in general since he has been selling them for years)  Sounds like somebody wanted to save a few bucks and got in over his head .  He didn't even contact the vendor about the problem. There are lots of animals that I do not think should be sold to the general public (at expos, at shops, at flea markets etc.) that is why I don't sell them.  Unfortunately, as long as no laws are being broken (and even that is not a deterant to some people) there will be people who will sell anything to anyone no questions asked as long as the money is there.  On the flip side, as long as there is a buck or two to be saved there are always going to be people who will buy from the questionable dealers without asking the proper questions .  It takes both to make the cycle complete.

Keep up your eduction efforts but remember, not all WC are neccessarily bad.

Steve Schindler
Tropical Oasis

I think it goes w/o saying that it's wrong to sell sick animals w/o letting the buyer know what they are getting into.  I believe in complete honesty up front, even if that honesty costs me a sale.  However, once you decide to buy, especially if you were warned about a potential problem, I assume NO responibility.  I will still answer all your questions and help you in any way I can, but if you bougth an imported animal that I warned you about, don't whine and cry when it croaks.
 The question that will pop into some of your heads right now is: well, why even sell an animal your not sure about?  The answer:  I won't sell ANYTHING that I know is in bad shape.  I will sell imported animals (even recent imports) because there is a large demand for those species, and in most cases many of those imported animals do well in captivity.  But, I always tell people they are imports.
 The question I have is this:  what responsibility does the customer have, if any?  Shouldn't the customer have some clue as to what they are getting themselves and the animal into?  And do their complaints really have any merit if they bought an animal as difficult as a chondro to take care of, w/o any knowledge of how to do so?

Think about it like this if you buy software for your computer and didn't read the requirments and when you get home open the software up and then notice it doesn't work on your computer. The store doesn't care if it is useless to you. You open the package you are now stuck with it. So read the small print always. Just a thought

wow.  

***disclaimer*--the following statement is not meant to single out any individual, vendor, or show--it is intended as an opinion about shows and philosophy of sales in general***

i think the point in this case is not about a particular individual who had a problem with a particular vender...the real issue seems to be the regulation of shows.  we all have to remember that shows are advertised to the public and the public is not always (and usually is not) very educated about reptiles.  i have seen so many sickly animals get sold to 12 year old kids--a death sentence for that animal, and heartbreak for the kid.  should the promoters be responsible for regulating a show?  I would think so.  true, you dont want to lose vendors or make for a "boring" show, but do you really want a 12 year old girl going home with an emaciated import just picked up from the airport--no meds,no care sheet or nothing?  Especially with the HSUS and others on our backs, we should really be careful.  Not to mention, dont we care about the animals we sell and promote, our reputations, or our customers anymore?

whether or not this particular case is valid (I was not there, didnt see the animal), I know that these things go on, and much worse.  And as a vendor, it can be scarey.  I have heard a lot of terrible stories (rumors???) about venders having problems due to wc vendor neighbors.  i once got a call the day after a show i did to warn me about how infested with mites the table next to mine was--everyone who bought from this vendor had snakes full of mites and ticks--and this guy was taking his snakes out, handling them, etc etc.  i was just thankful that i didnt have any snakes at that show and was strict about hand sanitizer.  

i understand where you are coming from Kelli.  I dont think you are anti wild caught (steve works at the zoo)--it is a matter of better standards and regulation by the promoters.  
i thought the texas shows were supposed to be captive bred only?--or at least started off that way.  i see lots of shows advertised that way, and then tons of wc animals are allowed in.  isnt that misleading for the general public?  why not just be honest in the advertising?  what about the poor kid who buys a frilled dragon, assuming that it is cb since the show is "cb only" and then runs into a ton of problems with parasites and acclimation?  and of course they buy the import because it is $125 vs the real cb animal being sold for $200, because they are both supposed to be cb animals.  not to mention, there are people in the general public that go to cb only shows because of ethical/moral/conservation stances--then they wind up buying an import without knowing?  in this case i feel that it is the promoters fault for false advertising and/or not enforcing their rules.  by now it seems almost "understood" by vendors that "cb only" doesnt REALLY mean "cb only"--bring whatever you want.

btw, could you post more info about this new show being talked about?

it is a difficult question to know how to set the standards for wc animals, but it should be addressed.  maybe not a vet bill of health, but a specific period of observation or quarentine before selling?  and certainly no animals with outward issues such as dehydration, emaciation, etc.  or, dealers should be able to recognize signs that the general public does not.  part of the risk and responsibility of the dealer for working with fresh imports should be dealing with the need to separate out and care for ones that dont look as good--not passing that burden off to an unknowing consumer before the signs are too apparent. none of this "not my fault" bit because it is a fresh import. i dont know, perhaps this would make for an interesting new thread.

my lovely opinion,
Dana

I agree with Kelli 110%. First off, the Texas shows that are in question are advertised as "cb" only shows. It has never been captive breed only. Freshly imports have no business at a show. There will come a time when we no longer will be allowed to own reptiles. The all mighty dollar comes first to so many WC dealers. I have purchased many WC animals but I also have the knowledge as to what they may need once I get them home. I do not believe that all WC animals be stopped from being sold at shows BUT that animal should be healthy first before being sold. I have seen too many people that have bought unhealthy animals that have died. Well, guess what, we just lost that person to a sell of a healthy one. More times then not, they are turned away from reptiles and the ones selling healthy ones have just lost out. Now the one selling healthy animals, whether cb or wc, have to work twice as hard to sell their animals.  The public also needs to stop the impulse buying, they need to know what they are buying and who they are buying from and we can help them do this by asking if they really know what they are getting into and the extra care that is involved. After that, they are on their own. At least we warned them. We would not have the variety of animals that we have if it was not for wc BUT lets be honest about what we are selling. It is not fair to the public and also not fair to the dealers and vendors who think more of the LIFE that is their hands then the all mighty dollar. What we need to realize first is that it is a LIFE !!! 90% of the vendors and dealers think about that life first. Reputation is all that one has, after that is gone, you have nothing left. It does take extra work to rehab an animal that is wc but the dealer knows this before he buys it. If he/she does nothing for the animal before pawning it off on a customer, that is wrong. Most of the public does not know much about reptiles and it is our job to educate them. Most do not know what they are getting into and need our help.
 Thank goodness there are alot more good guys out there then bad ones but as a customer that is buying for the first time, they know no different. Only healthy ones should be in the public to sell. If the dealer does not want to take the extra time rehabilitating or does not have the room to house it until it is healthy, then I say they should not have bought it in the first place.
Thanks for listening
Irene Olier

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate hearing the opinions of others on this matter, it helps me see it from a different point of view.

One complaint I have about these shows is that the promoters refuse to follow their own rules. Here are some excerpts from the Vendor Rules and Application sent out to prospective vendors for the local expo:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">PROHIBITED ANIMALS:  No venomous reptiles will be allowed in the show for sale, no exceptions.  From time to time we allow venomous
displays.  They are only allowed with special permission from the promoters.  No iguanas may be sold at the expo.  No unhealthy animals
may be brought into the expo.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

This is the main problem, many of the vendors at the show are brokers that pick up their order of WC animals at the airport on Froday night and unpack the boxes the next morning at the show, offering them for sale without knowing a thing about them (if they are feeding, if they have mites, if the harbor internal parasites, etc.).



</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">CAPTIVE-BRED versus IMPORT/WILD-CAUGHT.  The purpose of the Expos is to promote captive breeding.  However, occasionally we
will allow certain imported or wild-caught animals.  The vendor must state on the sold packaging whether the animal is wild-caught,
import or captive bred.  Vendor agrees to take full responsibility for any problems which may arise from the sale of their animals.  All
animals sold at this expo must be in good health and  feeding.  Any attempt to deceive the public as to origin of stock, diseases or
feeding problems, will result in expulsion from the expo and the vendor will not be invited back.  Any animals showing signs of
malnourishment or external parasites must be removed from the expo immediately.  Security personnel will help you escort your animals
out of the expo.  Security and expo staff decisions are final.  
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Sadly, the purpose of the Expo is not to promote captive breeding anymore. It is to put money into the promotors pockets. The shows have way more imports than captive born now, and many of the breeders (including HISS) that used to vend at the shows have stopped going. I can assure you that as far as the "packaging" rule, it is not happening. Packages/receipts are not being labeled as "wild caught" and in some cases customers are lied to about the origin of an animal they are buying. Sickly animals are being sold at these shows, most are WC's that are fresh imports and are loaded with internal parasites and do not feed. It is not fair for the animal or the customer, the animal will either end up dying or being very ill and the customer will end up with a very high vet bill.

What if we were talking about dogs, cats or horses here? I believe there would be a much bigger outcry and more people protesting against these practices if we were. Reptiles and amphibians are living, breathing creatures and deserve to be treated as such and given the respect that every living creature deserves.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">CITY, STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS.  No animals may be sold or displayed that are in violation of any city, state or
federal regulations or laws.  NO EXCEPTIONS.  Anyone caught bringing these animals to the expo will have them removed immediately
from the expo by our Security personnel.   Vendors will not be allowed to keep them under their tables.  Security and expo staff decisions
are final.   </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Here again, rules are not being followed! A well known python breeder is a regular vendor at the local expo. He happens to sell Nile Crocodiles and has them on his table at every show. Usually they will be on the table marked with a price for several hours on Saturday. I guess so many people complain about it that he is told to put a "For Display Only" label on the deli cups and is allowed to keep them on his table. It is illegal in the city that the expos are held in to possess these animals. I personally cannot understand why anyone in their right mind would think it is okay to sell Nile Crocodiles to anyone with the $200 to buy one! Seems pretty crazy to me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The only imports we will allow at our shows will be those that are not being bred in the U.S.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Here is yet another one of the rules for this show that is not being followed. Green Tree Pythons, uromastyx, several chameleon species, blood pythons, emerald tree boas, fat tail geckos, the list goes on.. All are being reproduced here in the US in captivity.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">VENDOR RESPONSIBILITY - Vendors must act responsibly in the sales of any animals that are questionable or unacceptable as pets,
especially to those under the age of 18.   Vendor must disclose the temperament that any animal may have now, or as it grows.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

See above about Nile Crocs.

These are the main gripes I have about these shows. I am not against import animals (we have some in our own collection). I am against people selling sick animals. All I am doing is attempting to make people more aware of all this.

CAVEAT EMPTOR two words from Roman times that are just as applicable today as they were thousands of years ago. Let the Buyer Beware!

Do not get me wrong, I do not advocate selling sick or parasitized snakes; but then again I am not for a ban on W/C either. I think W/C is ok with regulations and limits, and even that W/C are sometimes preferable to C/B, but that is another thread for another time.

The point that many (but not all) seem to be missing (although it is painfully obvious) is that the guy who bought the snakes was even more irresponsible than the seller. The seller according to the buyer told him straight out that they were W/C and that he did not know about their condition. Then the seller buys them and later has the nerve to complain that they were INFESTED (really badly) with mites. Did he even pick up the snake to look at it, and then diid he examine his own hands for mites. That is simply one of the rules about responsible snake buying. You check it out for OBVIOUS problems and if there are any - do not buy  the snake! I can find no pity for a guy like this, and actually am rather miffed that he would bother anyone with such a post especially since he seems to be look for sympathy. You know he can find sympathy in the dictionary somewhere between Sh-- and syphillus, but he cannot find it in me. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Kelli

I am not familiar with the show(s) or promoters you are refering to but if the rules you have posted are the rules as specified in the expo regulations (and I hve no reason to believe they are not) then I would stay as far away from this show and it promoters as I could.  You are right in saying that it has evolved into a money making venture and nothing more. Not that there is anything wrong with making money on a show you are promoting, but if you are going to put rules in place simply as windowdressing that is terrible.  I could see where breeders would get ticked of thinking they were going to a show highlighting CB and find diseased, parasitized, crap on the table next to you.  

The only frequently held swap I am familiar with has both  Healthy CB and WC crap (actually has some decent WC stuff on occasion and even some pretty poor CB stuff) but it happens twice a month and it is very busy.  Very profitable for the promoter too I would think.  Whenever there is a decent CB only show around, most of what I hear is people complaining that  1.  The prices were too high.  2.  There was nothing interesting there.  3. (from the vendors) there was no one there.  Sometimes I agree with #1 but you have to compare apples to apples.  As far as #2 if by interesting you mean some rare animal that no one ever sees but will certainly die within a couple of weeks,(read horned lizards and flying dragons among other things) then yes I agree with you.  and #3,  good shows take time to develope.  Maybe the promoter didn't advertise like he should have but if you don't give them a second or third chance (with some suggestions) the show will never get off the ground.

Steve Schindler

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
HI!
I AND MY PARTNER, SHANLYN DO THESE SHOWS PUT ON BY
TEXAS REPTILES (GENESIS). WE HAVE DONE THE TULSA AND
ARLINGTON SHOWS AND HAVE MORE ON SCHEDULE. THE REASON THIS THREAD WAS STARTED ON THE OTHER FORUM IN MY OPINION WAS DUE TO THE FAST THAT THE BUYER DIDNT GET ANY INFO IN REGUARDS TO CONTACTING THE VENDOR (CLAUDE) AFTER THE SHOW. IF THEY HAD, THEN CLAUDE COULD HAVE DONE WHAT EVER WAS NEEDED TO IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THE CUSTOMER WAS SATISFIED.
 AS FAR AS THE SHOWS GO, BONNIE AND JAMES DO THEIR
BEST (IMO) TO KEEP WILD CAUGHT IS AT THE SHOWS TO A
MIN. AND OF GOOD QUALITY.  THEY GO BY EACH TABLE AND
LOOK AT THE ANIMALS AND IF SOMETHING DOESNT LOOK
UP TO PAR THEY WILL TELL YOU TO REMOVE IT. I HAVE SEEN
THEM TELL PEOPLE "THOSE LOOK TO THIN" AND MAKE THEM
REMOVE THEM FROM THEIR TABLE.  WE TOLD BONNIE THAT
WE HAD SOME LONG-TERM WC IN ADDITION TO ALL OUR C.B.B. AND SHE GRILLED US WHAT WE WERE GOING TO HAVE,
HOW LONG WE HAD THEM, HEALTH, ETC....
 NOW NOBODY CAN ALWAYS TELL IF SOMETHING HAS INTERNAL PARASITES BY LOOKING SO SOMETHING MIGHT GET
THROUGH THAT BONNIE AND JAMES CANT SEE WITH THE NAKED EYE. HOWEVER, IF THE BUYER DOESNT TAKE THE TIME
TO GET A CARD FROM THE VENDOR OR A CARESHEET (IT IS
MANDATORY AT THESE SHOWS TO HAVE BOTH BUSINESS CARDS AND CARESHEETS) THEN WHAT DOES HE EXPECT THE
VENDOR TO DO IF HE HAS A PROBLEM? PUT ON HIS TELEPATHIC HAT OR WHAT?? AND IF A VENDOR IS WARNED ONCE ABOUT THEIR WC, THE NEXT TIME THEY WILL BE BANNED FROM THE SHOW. I HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN TO.
 I DONT HAVE ALOT OF SYMPATHY FOR THE GUY WHO STARTED THE THREAD ON THE OTHER FORUM AT ALL AND I
DONT PUT ALOT OF FAITH IN WHAT HIS VET OR WHOEVER TOLD HIM ABOUT THE SNAKE HE BOUGHT.  THERE IS NO WAY
THAT THERE WAS A MITE INFESTED, MOUTH ROUTING SNAKE
AT THE SHOW ON A TABLE - NO WAY.  MOST ALL VENDORS AT THESE SHOWS ARE VERY KNOWLEDGABLE AND HAPPY TO TALK FOR HOURS ON END WITH YOU ABOUT ANYTHING. AS FAR AS THERE BEING ALOT OF HALF-DEAD WC AT THESE SHOWS I THINK THATS JUST BUNK. BONNIE AND JAMES DO FOLLOW THE RULES THAT THEY HAVE SET FOR THE SHOWS AND DO ALL THEY CAN TO ENFORCE THEM. AND IF YOU EVER HAVE A COMPLAINT ABOUT A VENDOR JUST CALL OR EMAIL THE PROMOTOR AND THEY WILL GIVE YOU THE INFO YOU NEED OR HELP GET IT RESOLVED.
THIS IS ALL FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN MYSELF AND ARE MY OPINIONS. HOPE IT DOESNT TICK ANYONE OFF BUT I THINK
THERES ALOT OF BULL FLYING AROUND HERE.
BUT HEY, THATS JUST IMO.

GOD BLESS TO ALL!
BEN [email protected].
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Well, I definitely agree with selling healthy animals and not purposefully pawning off really awful ones on an unknowing public.  
But unfortunately, it is not all THAT easy to distinguish a CB from an import.  I mean, unless you are told or you are just amazingly clairvoyant, how do you tell?  I am not trying to knock anyone here, but kind of playing devil's advocate.  If you are a show promoter, how exactly will you get proof that a particular vendor's animals CB or fresh imports?  Require fecals done at the show?  Require exact hatch dates, photos of the parents, photos of the animal hatching, feed charts from birth?  All of these can be faked, and many people that are out there that DO legitimately breed quality animals, but may not keep perfect records, and there are some people that sell import animals that keep flawless records.  I have seen some super nice WC and some major CRAP CB out there, and vice versa.  It is all your perception on how you can provide 100% proof of the animal's origins.  

I personally see NO problem in buying or selling imports.  I have many imported animals in my collection of several species and I have sold imports before as well.  BUT, I also have experience with getting the animals acclimated, medicated, and generally cleaned up.  If you have NO experience and you just want to save a few bucks, then you don't need the animal, plain and simple.  I think that imports should be given as much care possible before being sold to anyone, as in feeding, meds, quarantine, and what not.  And I belive that you shouldn't sell them to the public right off the boat, BUT if the seller is perfectly honest about that with the buyer, and the buyer decides to take the risk anyway, you can blame the seller for selling a fresh import, but you cannot blame him/her for nondisclosure of the animal being what it is.  

And my biggest gripe with this is the buyer not taking responsibility!  Please, if you buy a living thing, at least learn what you are getting into!  If you are unsure of the animal on the table, pass it by.  But if you buy an animal and the seller tells he is not sure of it, take the responsibility for your own actions.

If an animal's conditioin is fully disclosed it is up to the buyer to make the decision if they can handle this. If you are selling to a minor you should speak with the parent about any animal purchase (who wants to listen to a soccer mom yelling at you because you sold something she didn't want in the house. Legal/financial issues aside, that's the last thing I want to hear  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> ).

I want to know who is supposed to issue these "licenses" that state you are an experienced collector (and at what level).

Education is the only real world solution. Educate yourself before you buy. Educate your customer with care sheets and full disclosure. This takes time but I have a list of breeders/dealers that have taken their time with me. If I am looking for an animal I contact them first. I give them their asking price (because I am paying for two things. The animal and the time they take with me) meaning no haggling. I recommend them to everyone I can. I figure they are receiving about $400 for every ten minutes they spend with me going over things because of the free advertising and return sales. $400 for ten minutes of work is good money (just an example).

My final comment. Vote with your wallet and ask your associates in the hobby to do the same (the main purpose of the BOI IMHO). Money is a motivator. If a vendor/promoter doesn't do things ethically, hit him where it hurts.

Hi All,

As the promoter and director of the DFW 2002 captive bred reptile and amphibian expo I have really enjoyed reading all of the postings on this forum pertaining to WC herps, buyer responsibility, pros and cons of CB shows, etc.  I did read someone's post regarding some valid comments about a promoter's ability to discern whether or not specimens were captive bred or wild caught.  To that I can only say that promoters should know what countries are exporting and their tarrif quotas.  I can find out this information from importers and USFW why don't other promoters do it?  Probably because they never thought of it.  I feel that I do have a bit of an advantage concerning this as my background involves working for an academic herpetological museum collection and zoos in the United States and Mexico.  Through these avenues, I have met several prominent breeders, researchers, importers, and zoologist.  I also provide all of the vendors with a simple set of clear and explicit rules for the event.  

I do not have any problem with people purchasing or owning wild caught herps.  However, acquiring many wild caught species is fairly easy for active herp enthusiast.  My concern is that the general public (many of whom either fear or loathe herps and form a majority at most herp expos) are given the wrong impression or message when they attend these shows.

I do agree that the buyer should be aware of what he or she is getting into before money changes hands.  I also feel that a vendor should have enough common sense and scrupples to know better than sell animals that are literally "just out of the box".  It is alarming to me how many vendors are permitted to sell at events without any screening.  I know of one group of "fly by nighters" selling wild caught Mali Uromastyx and instructing people to keep them really hot and on bird seed all of the time because "that is what they eat in the wild".  Another purveyor of uromastyx was selling recently imported specimens who were unable to move their hind legs.  Other vendors have been selling medically significant arachnids and centipedes to children!  Unfortunately too many people feel that all tarantulas are just as calm and "safe" as Chilean rose hairs.  (The list can go on and on Phrynosoma modestum, nile crocodiles, etc).
 
I am in full favor of capitalism and free enterprise, but I seriously must question someone's business ethics if they sell a green tree python to a beginner!  Can you say "Cha-Ching"?  Obviously that is all that the vendor was thinking as the snake was sold!

I cannot speak about other expos, but here in Texas I cannot say that the frequent "swap meat" events sport "the cream of the crop".  Also it seems that too many public herp/commerce events involve exploitation.  This exploitation may be in the form of rattlesnake round ups or the selling of wild caught/health compromised specimens or promoters serving as vendors at rattlesnake roundups while hosting lackluster shows.  Another negative to the fly by night scene is the "race to the bottom" in regards to prices.  I routinely see specimens priced slightly above their wholesale import price.  This may be a profitable venture for someone with a large commercial operation, but it underscores and challenges the stability of herpetocultural economics as well.

I know that I have some opinions that might differ from some of those out there.  That is why I had to put my money where my mouth is and host the only all captive bred herp show in Texas.  
From the responses and postings I've seen on this forum it appears to be quite progressive.  Feel free to fire away with any comments or questions.  I definitely want herpetoculture to gain better acceptance in mainstream society and I cannot think of any better means to provide that than to host an event with some of the best in the industry.

Sincerely,

Carl Franklin

www.carlscreepycrawlies.com

Bravo Carl!!!
Let's hear some more about the show--is it on your website?  kingsnake?

There was another thread on the KS chameleon forum recently that was similar to this one about the Hamburg PA show--along the lines of it used to be a quality show and this past weekend there was a lot of wc not so great looking animals.  I also heard about the scrape bottom prices and stock at the ohio show last weekend.  It is very difficult to be a breeder/dealer that puts a lot of time and $ into their animals' health and well being only to have to sell it for less than what you put into it due to the pricing of some of the importers and cheapie dealers.  
Interestingly enough, it used to be some of the big name stores that were complained about--now they seem to have reasonable prices and it is a lot of the fly by nighters or one season wonders that are what is cutting us out.  i am fearful of this direction that shows (and the market in general) are going, and i sincerely appreciate what it seems you are doing.  i hope your show is very successful.  
i hope people put pressure on promoters, educate the consumers, and up their breeder/dealer ethics.
boy, this is a hot topic for me lately!
Dana

I decided to add my 2 cents here as well.  Being a promoter of a WC included show, and now also hosting the ONLY venomous included CB only show in the US, I've seen the things that are being pointed out.  I know good dealers and I know bad dealers in term of the quality of animals they sell.  The WC included show I do is in association with the Herp Society I'm a board member of.  We pride ouselves on providing the public with vendors that sell only QUALITY animals.  We HAVE at times asked vendors to remove animals from the room due to their apparent poor condition.  

One thing I HAVE noticed is that while we do police the area for sick animals, we NEVER have a customer complain about something THEY saw until AFTER the show.  If they would've come to us DURING the show, something would've been done about it.  We sometimes miss things, just taking a quick glance at the tables looking for illegal, sick, DEAD, infested, whatever animals, and have overlooked some things in the past.  If people would've just alerted us t oa situation, then the proper steps would've been taken.  We have things to do at our shows, once we take the onceover we tend to the other points of business like the educational displays, the programs, the raffles, the front table, etc.

As far as the hosting of the CB expo in 2 years, I plan on making it strictly CB and (extreme) LTC.  By LTC, I don't mean over a year like other keepers accept, but basically I'm saying that if somebody has a pair of king cobras, by talking to the dealers beforehand, I can get a pretty good idea of the length of time they've been in captivity.  The problems I'm going to face is the venomous market.  There are some species that just aren't being captive born.  Hopefully in 2 years, some people will have discovered the secrets of making it work.  The other issue I plan on solving is the undercutting at the usual venomous included swaps.  A western diamond back is a dime a dozen.  Then again most are wild caught.  They usually sell for around $35.  The problem is, people have some BEAUTIFUL CB snakes that are worth TONS more than $35.  This will give them a place to sell them without worrying about being undercut.  There are lots of species in the same situation.  

bottom line, I will be VERY strict about what is sold at our expo, but as for the show I'm currently doing for the TSHS, as long as the animal is not dying or dead, or infested with parasites, I leave ALL deals between the customer and the vendor.  I CANNOT be responsible for problems on that level.  If contact information is needed, I may be able to provide that.  I trust my vendors and they trust me, that's all I need to be concerned with for right now.  

Thanks,

what?  i thought LTC meant one week!  lol!
maybe i'll have to make it back to pittsburgh for that one (lived there before moving to NM)--GO STEELERS!!!!.  i think it's great that they are letting you put on a hot show.
good point about people pointing out stuff at the show--i think people feel to snitchy or something to do it then, especially other vendors.  i tried to tell this little girl that bought a basically dead bearded dragon at the show to go tell the promoter on the sunday of the show and she shyed away. some people cant deal with confrontation.
i also have a feeling that vendors will put something under the table only to pull it out in the midst of a show.
anyways.
dana

Todd and everyone else, question for ya.  What makes the cb western diamondback "worth Tons more than $35."  And before someone tries to strangle me through their computer, I do understand that cb USUALLY means better temperment, better feeder, etc.  But that's only usually.  If the person with the money in their hand is happy w/ the wc animal for $35 why are they wrong for purchasing it?
I ask the question because I often sell imported animals that are common in the pet trade (amazon tree boas, ball pythons, etc.)  I tell everyone up front they are imported and represent them honestly, so why is it wrong for me to sell them?  I have been chastised by other vendors and promoters not because of the quality of my animals, but because of my prices (being to low).  Why do I have to raise the price of my animals so others can compete?  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
Isn't competition what capitalism is all about?  CB only expos are fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking that you can tell if every single animal there is truly cb.  And you still haven't clarified what cb means.  Is that captive bred/born or is just captive born alright.  If captive born is alright does that mean in this country or is captive born on some crappy farm in SA or Africa ok?  
I think somene above said it best, "vote w/ your wallet."  If there was no market for wc and/or imported animals then no one would be selling them (when's the last time you saw a YUGO dealership).  I think as a promoter you are limiting what your show can become, when you start trying to run your vendor's businesses for them.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, nobody wants the porn store in town when it moves in, but damn, it sure is busy! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Brian,

    It's not a question of the value of the CB babies, really.  Currently in the venomous market, western dbacks are only worth $35, and I'll admit, the WC ones ARE of pretty good quality.  The thing is, the vendors that sell the CB WDBs would like to charge more for them, but can't due to the market value of the WC ones.  So, by providing people with a market for CB only stock, then they can attempt to set a CB market value for some venomous snakes.  For insatance, a russels viper.  I bought 3 CH (I know they're livebearers, but the babies were born from an imported mother soon after she entered the country) for $95 each.  A captive born specimen would have all the qualities that you mentioned, and NOT have to be acclimated (the hardest aspect of russles vipers even CH ones)     By having this expo, I plan on giving the FEW people that are breeding them a place to get what their worth, and provide the customers with an honest supply of the harder to find CB species.  A puff adder will still only be worth $35 due to the high clutch numbers of CB babies.

    I do realize that my job will be difficult in determining the CB from the CH babies, but just as the other gentlemen has the import specifics and quotas, it's pretty easy to know which species are being bred in captivity and by whomin the venomous market.  If somebody tries to bring in some "CB" coral snakes, then I can pretty much KNOW that they are BSing me.....I mean, who REALLY wants to work with coral snakes, considering that they would be much easier to sell WC.  Atheris Hispida is another example, people just do not breed them right now....maybe in 2 years someone will figure out how to make them survive in captivity.  

    The point is not for YOU to raise YOUR price to meet the standards of the CB market, but to allow the CB dealers the luxury of not having to lower their prices to compete with you.

Well, I think that the "race to the bottom" mentality is in part due to the crappy market situation right now, and also the fact that most sellers out there(mainly the fly by night types) don't seem to understand that they are only hurting the herp economy by trying to undercut everyone so bad.  I agree that fresh imports should be cheaper than established or quality CB animals(you get what you pay for), BUT not to the point of being ridiculous.  I don't feel I should have to drop my prices 50-75% on quality CB animals to compete with the guy a couple tables down who just put in an order with a wholesaler three days ago for fresh WC of the same species and is selling them a couple bucks over cost to make some quick numbers.  There is no WORK involved in that and it sets a bad precedent in my opinion.  The "quick-money" vendors are going to be the ruin of this hobby.  Why SHOULD we who actually work hard to breed these animals and provide quality animals and service even bother to do so if we have to continually try to lower our prices(which in most cases reflect work put in and quality) to compete with someone who #1 undercuts the rest of us so much it makes US look greedy, and #2 floods the market and not only diminishes the monetary value, but the WORTH of the animals overall, making them the "crap animal that is everywhere," and #3 completely denegrates the work and hard effort put into producing and maintaining these animals?  There is CAPITOLISM and then there is CRAPITOLISM.  Flooding a market with cheap imports is not the way we create respect for what we love doing.  

Again, I have no problem with selling imports, but at least do something to insure the animal has a chance before putting it on your table.  I agree with bpc on the point that if you honestly represent the animal as a fresh import that is most likely not eating, mildly-severely dehydrated, and probably heavily parasitized, and the buyer insists on getting it anyway, hey, that is the buyer's fault for bad choosing.  BUT what are you doing selling an animal in that condition in the first place?!  

And I agree, if people would actually make complaints to not only the promoters, but the vendors as well while the show is STILL going on, it would help better than to complain about poor animals after the thing is over.  What good does that do?

Anyway, enough ranting from me <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

In regards to whether or not any promoter can determine what specimens are captive bred or not depends upon his/her competency regarding the topic as well as those that are selected as vendors.  In regards to the event I am hosting, I know most of the vendors rather well and the others whom I am familiar with provide specimens that they've been working with for quite some time (designer colubrids, albino hognoses, Asian ratsnakes, etc).  So in that fashion I feel rather fortunate.

Of course the previous posting is correct in the philosophy that competition and free enterprise go hand in hand.  However, it is still troublesome if not disgusting to witness the sheer volume of imported herps that are not as "easy" to care for as Amazon tree boas and Ball pythons.

It is also bothersome to hear field researchers in Madagascar report that some study sites now hold a significant reduction in local herp/bio mass.  Then to see a new arrival of Uroplatus at $25 each only to be "jobbed" out at $40-50 each (last fall and winter).  Or to see Mantella aurantiaca (a species destined for CITES 1 recognition and for whom last year's export quota exceeded more than 1,000 specimens) sold wholesale at $6 and then sold again at expos (often to an eager child) for $12-18.  I can tell you that the percentage of those individuals actually purchasing these frogs for continued maintenance and propagation vs. those who acquire them for commerce or novelty are pretty far and few in between.

This is only one example out of thousands that make establishing captive breeding paramount.  Simply put, we are now able to acquire herp diversity that probably cannot be rivaled by any other time in recent history.  Sadly I feel it is largely being taken for granted.

Consider another Malagasy example, the Masobe gecko.  More of these rare lizards wound up into garbage bins than into museums.  This was due to the notion that they are difficult or impossible to maintain combined with their high mortality rates.  I have communicated with several individuals who acquired this species and experienced mortality due to improper husbandry.  This could have been largely avoided had these individuals sought the reference of current literature.  Sadly it was determined that this species is considered to be one of the top 5 most endangered reptiles in Madagascar.  

I don't feel that market dynamics will really change unless the supply changes.  That is an inevitable truth in many regards.  Just consider common snappers and soft shelled turtles.  For at least the past few years, we've fussed about the Chinese and the Asian appetite for turtles.  Yet how many of us were aware that up to 1,000 pounds of freshwater turtle meat has been exported weekly from the US to Asia for at least the past "few" years?  Now those once widely abundant animals are being relegated to CITES 2.  Another example are ball pythons.  When gravid females are collected they are held until the eggs are laid and released.  During that time they are usually not provided with food or water.  I have a "hunch" that many of these females are compromised beyond repair and wind up dead as a result.  Then 1,000 or more babies are exported to the US for about $1 each.  Look at Uromastyx.  The entire genus is scheduled for CITES as well simply due to over exploitation.

No one can say what the future holds, but I feel that only intrepid individuals will succeed financially at herpetoculture and that captive breeding will go a long way towards securing that.  

I sincerely hope that more captive bred shows will be hosted in the near future and that trends involving the herp pet trade change.

Sincerely,

Carl J. Franklin