The Discussion Forums future [Archive]

WebSlave

08-28-2003, 01:33 AM

OK, I know this isn't appropriate in this forum, but this is bugging me and I need to get your attention.

I have cut out the complexity of most of the discussion forums by removing the subforums, thinking maybe that was inhibiting people from using them. But so far, there has been no change at all in traffic.

So are they even wanted on this site? Granted, they weren't the original focus of FaunaClassifieds, but I had enough people requesting discussion forums that I felt they were wanted.

So I think a poll is in order.

So you all have any desire at all to utilize the discussion forums or should I just help unclutter this site by going ahead and removing them? Should I just analyze usage of each forum and delete those that are just not being used, leaving the others?

I am going to set this up as a poll, but would also welcome some discussion. After a reasonable amount of time, this thread will be moved to the FaunaClassifieds feedback forum (unless it is determined that this one should be deleted as well).

So let me know what I am doing wrong, please.

robin s.

08-28-2003, 05:58 AM

Rich,
i think that most of the people visiting this site use it for either a) the boi or b) the classifieds. now both of those links are at the top of the page. now i would be willing to bet alot of people (not the regulars) do not even know the discussion forums exist. how about posting the forums up towards the top, in essence making them see you do have forums. see what happens and if your usage increases then maybe you solved you problem. if not then maybe you might want to re think them. maybe, another thing is that the moderators can come up with some interesting discussions to get things moving or maybe some of the regulars and see if they are being used by the newer users. just some thoghts. or maybe you can post what the top forum discussion of the day is, just to get people interested
be good
excuse all my spelling and punctuation errors its like 3:30 and just woke up because i couldnt sleep
i am the queen of lower case and run on sentances plus my spelling sucks too

jenn_jeffery

08-28-2003, 07:06 AM

I tend to "view new posts" several times daily, and if I see a post in one of the discussion forums that interests me, I read it, and if (not usually though) I can help the person, then I answer it. If I didn't see all of the new posts, I don't know that I would check them daily though, since they don't get much traffic....I don't see any harm in leaving them though, since you've gone to all the trouble to set them up, when ppl get sick of KS, they may pick up more in time....

herpcondo

08-28-2003, 08:34 AM

I also use the "view new posts" link on the front page everytime i come here,,( 2-3 Times a day) and i always read anything that is of intrest to me,, I hate to say it, but what i have found,, is that some people just don't know the forums and Fauna Classifieds exist... I have directed everyone i meet either online, through auction sites, and through face to face meeting here to enjoy what i feel is the best place to "really connect" with other herpers who share my passion for the animals we enjoy. also it is nice to come here, and read experiences others have had with for example Shipping. As a matter of fact after reading the very post Rich made about UPS and a Reptile Shipping Account, I got one myself and have been very happy with the results.. In turn i posted my experiences with a step by step "how to" get a reptile shiping account,,, I have been contacted by at least 8-10 people privately just to find out all the info. etc.. so i really do think it is a great forum site, and for one would hate to see it go..! The results may not be what you are expecting in the time you expect, but I think it is a great site, and would hate to see it change,,, I am directing everyone i can find here to boost the people who use and hpefully support this site.
I would also like to ask a question,,,
I would proudly display an ad for a direct link on my website to the Fauna Classifieds,,, Is there anyway, you (Rich) can make a small to Medium "click through" link we ( website owners) can cut and paste so we can proudly ad your site to our site. It would help to get the word out about the Fauna Classifieds , and I think Most members here would be glad to add it to there site, I know i would! (My little site is getting 8000-9000 hits a month)

Rich , I think this is by far the best Forum site in the herpers world, give it some time, and let it grow,,, KS and the others are pissing people off left and right on a daily basis, you are providing a site that does not ban or punish people on a whim,, you treat us all very fairly, you have made updates to the site to keep it fresh looking, and most of all you ask for our input, and actually take our input into account. leave the forums alone, and let us ( THE USERS) See if we can help to boost the memberships and traffic through this site. if we can, it will be good or all involved,,,
I mean isn't word of mouth still the best advertising anyone can get...?
And i will be happy to keep telling everyone i meet to come here, and experience the "best forum site on the net!"

Ritchie Luna

08-28-2003, 08:35 AM

The discussion forums (At least in Reptiles and amphibians) are way low on the list. You can't see them

ScottsReptiles

08-28-2003, 09:40 AM

I voted to remove them after 30 days of no activity. I don't see them really being used... and.. I know how much work it is to run and moderate forums... if they are not being used... why work so hard by keeping them running? Be like George Foreman "knock out the fat"

Sasheena

08-28-2003, 10:20 AM

When I got tired of all the [Bleeps] you-know-where, I found Faunaclassifieds (anything that needed to be [bleep]'ed MUST be interesting, no?)

Since I've been here I've been reading the BOI like a soap opera (and NO, I don't watch the ones on TV)... AND I've been learning a lot of the do's and don'ts about my future plans to breed and sell snakes. Just today I received an offer of a trade, I went to the BOI, and lo and behold, this person is a perpetual scammer. So, the BOI has saved me again.

As far as the other forums, I rarely go there, mostly because there is no traffic. If there were high traffic I would go there. BUT whenever I have a question that I post to any of the discussion forums, it gets answered by someone within 24 hours, which tells me a lot of the regulars here ARE watching the forums (view new posts) and participating when questions are asked.

One suggestion I would make is to have more general discussion forums... perhaps five or six for snakes and a similar amount for other herps... let the traffic build in fewer forums, and when the Boa people (for example) start clamoring for there to be a "boas only" forum, then you can let the traffic dictate if you re-create that sort of forum.

Dennis Gulla

08-28-2003, 11:18 AM

I would have to agree with the rest. I don't believe that the forums are visible enough. I check them daily, but there is such limited activity. If you are new to this site, it takes a little time to find everything. I would like to see them stay if possible.

Dianne Johnson

08-28-2003, 11:41 AM

I haven't been online much of late, but I do check the forums when I drop by here. If there's something of interest I'd like to comment on or something I think I can help with, I post...otherwise I just read. I'd personally like to see the forums stay. I still visit the KS forums, but lets face it they've gone downhill from what they used to be. I try to spread the word to come here...eventually, IMO, if enough of us do that we'll see more traffic. There's a lot of serious herpers out there that would like a serious place to discuss, and leard about, the animals we keep.

Just my .02
Dianne

Seamus Haley

08-29-2003, 03:11 AM

There's a lot of serious herpers out there that would like a serious place to discuss, and leard about, the animals we keep.

I agree with that but...

I think that may be part of the problem.

The majority of this sites regular users/posters are fairly experienced when it comes to the animals, the individual degrees differ of course but Fauna is not a site that, as a whole, seems to attract or encourage neophyte keepers to post here. Not that there's anything specific to deter them...

Consider for a moment the average new herp owner, probably picked the animal up at Petco or petsmart or their local Mom and Pop place; the real reptile specialty stores are fairly few and far between. When they look for forums to talk about their animals on, they likely don't care about the validity of this breeder's hets or the possibility of sperm retention or the morals involved with venomoids and hybrids. They want to know if their corn snake will like reptibark and why their ball python isn't eating.

If they arrive at a site where the majority of the discussion includes some certain basic premises are assumed rather than stated, they might be intimidated *just* enough to deter them from posting their more basic husbandry/biology questions.

I love to talk herp specifics with people who really know what they're doing; both talking about my own experiences and knowledge and getting better information about the species and groups that other people have focused on but there's a tendency for conversations to drift when the majority of the participants already know most of or all of what's being discussed.

I can't speak for anyone else but... I deal with enough "What do I feed..." "Why does my lizard..." "How hot should..." sorts of questions that I'll often ignore them unless I'm either bored and in a really pleasant mood, think that there might be some interesting debate or if the question is clearly of a more advanced caliber and likely to spark some discussion rather than simply the repetition of the answers to commonly asked questions. The first response to any of those more basic queries is usually going to be 100% accurate which leaves me (and others) with nothing to add. All of this makes for short threads that dissapear from the "View New Posts" option that many of the more frequent users will be utilizing.

I liked the idea that was broached a few times about some of the "regulars" posting generalized care sheets/informational mini-lectures that might answer those basic questions and introduce some of the slightly more complicated nuances of herp keeping at the same time, it just never seemed to really pan out with people following through too well. I have a few care sheets I've knocked up for herp society newsletters or in response to other message board posts that I intended to placew in the appropriate forums here, I'm sure many MANY others have the same intentions; we all just need to follow through.

TJEvans

08-29-2003, 02:00 PM

I voted to leave them where they are.

I do agree though that the traffic patterns might be higher if the forums themselves were more generalized. just have a snake forum, a lizad forum, etc. once it becomes apparent that the arboreal keepers want a forum of their own, they will ask for one and expansion may be attempted. I saw them fine, even though they are at the bottom of the page.

I also agree that this site doesn't attract the "newbies" that it needs to make some of the forums necessary. Whether it be because of the more specific or technical discussions that occur, or due to lack of advertising I don't know.

I do know that I like the format of this message board much better than that of kingsnake. It's prettier, easier on the eyes, and more convenient than only being able to view one message in a thread at a time, then have to reload the screen to get to the next message......

Anyway.....keep the forums, but maybe "downsize" them a bit

Thanks
Todd Evans

cka

08-30-2003, 02:10 PM

I voted to leave them also...I think it just needs more attention from all us regulars to try to frequent them more and offer advice and help where and when we can. I am certainly going to take the time to peruse them more than I have been.

StubbyUK

08-30-2003, 04:39 PM

Shhesh, I'm all shy I've never posted before....I voted to leave them on. That's because although I love snakes and would love to own one, I am unfortunately not in a position to get one yet. I'm not prepared to get one until I'm sure I can provide for a snake's entire lifetime, and living in rented accomodation as I am this is not a definate as so many places won't let you have so much as a gerbil never mind a reptile! But still one day....Anyhow, until I finally can, I tend to live vicariously through you folks. I lurk on lists and learn through your posts. The BOI gives me a chance to learn what to look out for when I do get a chance to purchase that snake, but the discussion forums (and I fervently wish they did get more use here) allow me to learn more about snake species and their care. I consider it a way of learning and keeping my interest fresh and sparky - if it is possible to be sparky after you have just finished moving into a new place. If I see another box I'll scream...

Anyhow's sorry for the long waffle and for any wierd spelling - I'm from the UK (That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it). I just wanted to give my little old opinion. I will now vanish back into the obscurity of lurkdom :)

Yvonne Stubbington

FLLDIVER

08-30-2003, 05:03 PM

The only people I could see not wanting this here are the people that are doing bad business and don't want others to know what they are all about !!!

I know if I had known this was here sooner - I would have searched through experiences of others before buying from anyone.

However, this discussion group needs to be more visable without having to scroll down the page to find it. Now that I know it's here, I view through it daily to see how transactions have been handled, corrected or ignored.

I think it definitely gives heads up to buyers or sellers.

Beth Danielson

Sean Belanger

08-31-2003, 02:50 AM

Rich, I think one of the main reasons they aren't being used is the forum format. Look at the format Kingsnake.com and FieldHerpers.com use. People can reply to whichever post they want rather than a single reply after reply after reply in which you can not choose which reply you'd like to respond to.. Here you have to read through basically every reply in a post. And if it continues from page to page, it gets rather tedious and most people would rather not bother with that. Change it so that people can reply to whatever they like and I think you might see more usage.

I would have voted in the poll but this option was not available.

Gary O

08-31-2003, 07:15 PM

I say leave them or downsize the ones you feel are not needed. Even though I do not post much I tend to read alot. If they are not slowing down the board or taking up space you need I say leave them.

WebSlave

09-01-2003, 03:58 PM

Sean - in reference the the branching structure of some of the earlier generation styles of message board systems, the original BOI I created was actually in that sort of styling. And it quickly became unmanageable and proved to be unsuitable for what I had envisioned. While a thread of 20 or less messages may work out fine, once the number of message got over that number, and was branching off into 15 different subthreads, no one would ever want to have to jump from each subthread to read the continuation of that section.

Imagine some of the larger threads here with 100+ messages in them, and the number of subthreads and subsubthreads that would have resulted. It would be an impossible task for someone wanting to read EVERYTHING about the topic of that thread to follow them all.

I suppose this same logic applies to what I want the discussion forums themselves to provide for people. It is very easy to cut and paste text from someone's earlier post and quote it within a followup message within the same thread. To date, I have not heard of anyone getting overly confused with this method of replying to someone within a thread.

I have run several subthreading message boards and just do not like that format. The search function fails miserably trying to provide a continuous thread when the keyword hit is deep within a subthread somewhere. Someone new coming to he site seeing a thread with dozens of subthreads is far less likely to read all of the messages than if the thread is in a single chronological linear thread. Right now on the front page of the BOI there are two threads with over 400 messages posted in them. Imagine how they would be with subthreading? Reading a long continuous linear thread may be tedious, but trying to read 400 messages that would be scattered over 50 or more subthreads would be pretty nearly impossible to do without losing your mind.

It was no accident that I chose this style of message board.

But maybe this is just my own personal preference blinding me to what everyone else would rather have.

Any other opinions?

herpcondo

09-01-2003, 04:31 PM

Leave it alone,,, It works great,,,,
the format is easy to follow,
and seems to be more intuitive than the branching threads( to me anyway) and very easy to find the topic you have been following if you "skip it" for a few days,,,

this is a great site,,, with a wealth of info,,, more and more exposure will come in time,,, and more and more members will post,,,
I really hate to say it! But i think to some degree Seamus is right,,, this site maybe more about the real "in depth" side of keeping and the propogation of the reptiles,,, Here you find good discusions on genetics, advanced species,and more of "has anyone ever seen this? type of questions. More advanced questions and to some degree very well thought out answers from some of the breeders with a lot of experience.that is the reason i keep coming back. To me this is more of a "college level" sight than a site catering to "newbies". all are of course welcome here, and everyone has something to add to the "pot" but why try and be something that is already out there,,, how many times can you really answer the question of what temp a ball python should be kept..? OR what substrate is best for a bearded dragon?
those questions are asked over and over and over on one of the other sights,, and here there are some questions posed that are really food for thought,, and something to get the old brain working.... I think as more people find this site, they will come to enjoy and use the site, and find a "home" in the herp world.

Stardust

09-01-2003, 04:47 PM

I agree, I like the site just the way it is.
But I also think that there is something missing. Something either not being seen or just keeping people from posting in those other threads. Perhaps we as a whole should start out, and show that those threads are not the BOI, a kinder, gentler, more fun side of this site, as well as informative.
I dont know, just a thought.

Sean Belanger

09-02-2003, 12:43 AM

Rich, From your perspective, I can completely understand why you chose the format you did. It makes alot of sense. I personally have no problem with the style of the forums here. But I remember when Kingsnake.com proposed changing their forums format, alot of people voiced their opinions and wanted the style to be kept the way it always has been. That is their preference so I thought I'd mention that here. Anyway, I'm really not sure why those discussion forums don't get more traffic. I posted a few things on them a while back and some posts did not get a single response. Maybe I should give it a try again. Anyone interested in checking out some Kingsnake photos, I'll be posting them on the King Snakes Discussion Forums tonite. Let me know what you think.

Stardust

09-02-2003, 12:56 AM

That is what I think I am trying to convey (and not so well).
Sean is going over there to post some pics, people like talking about their animals and showing off their animals and knowledge.
Somehow, people need to see that these forums are not the BOI. They can be fun and interactive.
Again, I am not sure I am making myself clear. Unfortunately, it is alluding me as to how to make these forums feel friendly. Or how to make the forums stand out a bit more. UGGGGG!!

WebSlave

09-02-2003, 01:26 AM

Some have suggested that I need to move the Discussion Forums to the top of the page. That, of course, would push the Classifieds section (along with the BOI) down to the bottom of the page, maybe removing some of the emphasis on that aspect of this site.

Would that be a wise move? Would I really want to then run the risk of not increasing traffic to the discussion forums, but as well reducing traffic to the other sections that are now getting the traffic?

If I could think of a decent redesign of the front page of FaunaClassifieds.com, I would do that. But I look at that *other* site and it looks so cluttered that it makes my teeth ache. I don't want to have the same thing here.

In some respects I feel my move from HerpWantAds.com to FaunaClassifieds.com was a mistake. The other animal sections get nowhere near the traffic to warrant my putting up with the headaches of trying to cater to the area that gets the greater majority of the traffic here. Maybe I should strongly consider rolling back to that other domain name.....

What do you all think?

Stardust

09-02-2003, 01:34 AM

Perhaps if you move the discussion forums just underneath the for sale. People would have to scroll down to the boi and business forums, and would see that some of the discussion forums are highlighted when people have written in there.

Sean Belanger

09-02-2003, 01:53 AM

Rich, Maybe it would be better if you made the Forum Table of Contents smaller. Instead of showing all the forums in the Classifieds and Business Section, maybe you could just show "Classifieds and Business Section" and let people click on that link if they want to see all the forums in that section. Same goes for the Laws, Legislative Issues & Alerts. Why list all the states on the Forum Table of Contents when people could just click on the link to see all the forums for each state? I think if people went to the Forum Table of Contents and saw just each category of forums, the list would not be so long and the Discussion Forums would be closer to the top as a result. People would probably not get overwhelmed with all the lists of forums too.

E2MacPets

09-02-2003, 01:57 AM

My suggested order for "Reptiles and Amphibians"

BOI
General Business Discussions
Consumer Reports
For Sale
Wanted
Trade
Events
General Herp Talk
Photos

Stardust

09-02-2003, 02:09 AM

Nope sorry Steve, think the BOI should be lower, with it on top that is where people will stop without looking any further.
I think sales should be first, then discussion forums, a little more condensed.
People are going to look for the BOI no matter where it is at, so why not put it low, so when scrolling down to it people are looking at all the other forums as well.
General Business is also a place where people like to go and know it is here, so it as well should be lower.
Photos, well, from what I have seen on other forums, people like photos, that is an eye catcher and also, IMHO be on top.

WebSlave

09-02-2003, 03:01 AM

Steven - I probably don't really understand the structure you are proposing, but are you suggesting dropping ALL of the discussion forums except for those few you list? Basically one large catch-all forum for everything concerning snakes, lizards, turtles, crocodilians, and amphibians? Dropping everything else, including Herps in the News, Taxonomy, Field Collecting, etc.?

Is the additional layer of the following suggested that it be dropped?:

Classifieds and Business Section
General Discussion Forums
Snake Discussion Forums
Lizard Discussion Forums
Turtle/Tortoise Discussion Forums
Crocodilian Discussion Forums
Amphibian Discussion Forums

That would leave one LARGE section with all of the forums (assuming that my interpretation of Steven's suggestion is incorrect) shown together.

I don't know, but my gut feeling is that having just a single general discussion forum for EVERYTHING I now have listed under the Snake, Lizard, Turtle/Tortoise, etc. forum sections would be kind of ridiculous. This site just isn't about talking about those subjects, it is also about someone being able to FIND that information that has already been discussed. I might as well go back to the old subthreaded format and just have three forums:

Buy, Sell, Trade
BOI
General Discussions

Personally, I think this site would then become completely useless. I believe I actually had something similar to this way back in the dark ages when I first started up HerpWantAds.com

Maybe my whole premise of what this site should be is just way off base. I don't want a site where people can just come on and chatter away at any sort of BS that pops into their heads. I want a serious transfer of information from those that have it to those that want it. I want this to be a valuable resource for people looking to find answers to their questions.

But maybe that's not what everyone else wants here. Maybe I just can't fix a design based on a flawed concept. Maybe it just can't be what I want it to be, at least not as fast as I would like it to happen.

Heck, maybe I should just stop worrying about it, leave it as it is, and go do something else with my time and let it either sink or swim. Throw my time and efforts into other areas and leave this one alone. It is growing quite nicely right now, so maybe I should leave well enough alone. I can see too many cooks trying to crowd into the kitchen (at my own invitation, I do realize) and maybe I should just follow my own instincts, right or wrong, and let the ship follow the current.

Wilomn

09-02-2003, 03:14 AM

Rich,

If dissemination of information from those what gots it to those what don't is your aim, I think you've hit the bullseye here. There has not been a question asked that I know of that hasn't been answered in a timely and lively fashion. I think this may be more of a success than you think. It's sometimes hard for a parent to see how good his kid actually is and I think this may be true for you in this particular instance.

As far as the rest, it may well work itself out, but I think the guidence you provide is necessary and needed, afterall it is your kid. Not to say that you need to be here 24/7 but don't go off and ignore it.

I think you're pretty damn successful here.

Wes Pollock

WebSlave

09-02-2003, 04:49 AM

Oh, I'm not saying I am going to abandon the site. What I'm saying is that as the cook, maybe I should just consider this soup as done and stop trying to change ingredients while it is cooking.

TheGhost

09-02-2003, 05:54 AM

Rich, since you're reading this I will post my thoughts quickly.

You've done more for reptiles then anybody else I can think of! Mainly...you've done it unselfishly and I applaud you for that as I doubt I would have been that big of a person.

This site is great! It's forforums cover the issues that need to be covered and people are allowed to speak their mind here and no other site.

What I would ask you to do would be to lay it out better. I think the layout of the site is really bad and there's much I didn't even know was here to be able to post in or about. You have the missing persons forum (GREAT IDEA), the consumer forum, you have so many great ideas laid out so poorly. I don't know how much room you have to work with this format as I know it's a faily often used format ad I have no clue what changes can be made.

Start with the first page you come to. I would put reptiles at the top of that page. Fish hasn't had a post in over a month, delete it! I would also do away with that Misc section as you have so many others I can't see anything even falling into that.

Things like the Flea market should be on that first page so it can be used by all the forum users.. Many I
'm sure don't know it's there. Same with the BOI as it would be nice if other got to take advantage of it.

Basicly I would list the forums on the main page with the sub-topics from there.

I would list the BOI as a stand alone as well.

Heck, it's a mess if you ask me. I would also make less topics like your Amphibian Discussion Forums haven't had a hit in 4 months. Delete the topics that aren't getting used or haven't had posts in say 90 days to allow the others to get more traffic then expand as you see fit. I think you gave us too many options when you changed formats and many have gone over looked.

Whole point is, the site is great! Just sort it a little better and delete everything that hasn't gotten a hit in the past 90 days, at least for the time being.

Hell if I know anything though, that's one thing this site has proven:)

Sasheena

09-02-2003, 10:24 AM

I think that the design of the very first page is the true answer to "fixing" the site so that it gets more traffic, if there is more traffic to get. There is no way in heck it needs to be as busy as "The other site" ... it can still be eye pleasing and yet convey all of the information necessary for anyone to know what is out there.

The suggestion to modify the table of contents page was, I think, more a suggestion of eliminating the LINKS to the subgroups rather than the GROUPS themselves. If the Table of Contents page only had links to the larger sections (instead of listing all the minutia found in each section), people would see.. "oh, there are discussion forums!"

I think that as the [bleeping] gets worse elsewhere, extending even to a person's private email via the site, that people are going to start looking elsewhere to find a "home"... that's what happened to me. I got tired of [bleep] and I came here, because of course anything worth [bleeping] is worth visiting to find out why!

I do have to say that when I first came here, it was VERY hard to figure out where the BOI was and all the other things of interest. So rather than eliminating those groups you've already spent your time establishing, change the front page.

Sorry.. I'm rambling

E2MacPets

09-02-2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Stardust
Nope sorry Steve, think the BOI should be lower, with it on top that is where people will stop without looking any further.
I think sales should be first, then discussion forums, a little more condensed.
People are going to look for the BOI no matter where it is at, so why not put it low, so when scrolling down to it people are looking at all the other forums as well.
General Business is also a place where people like to go and know it is here, so it as well should be lower.
Photos, well, from what I have seen on other forums, people like photos, that is an eye catcher and also, IMHO be on top.

Rozann,

While I agree it would be nice to force viewers to look at underused forums first. Personally I don't think the discussion forums should be disbanded, but I don't think forcing people to view them before getting to the BOI is going to encourage use of the site.

If you wanted to call attention to specific underused forums you could put a rotating "Spotlight on..." topic right above the BOI.

Stardust

09-02-2003, 11:56 AM

Steve,
I in no way meant to say or imply to "force" people. Sorry if that is what came across.
I just know that for me, I forget the dicscussion forums are here. I come here, look on the BOI, maybe scan around to sound off, and a few other places that I know that get hits and then leave to other forums for discussion. I have been on here for awhile now, so I know what doesn't really get used so I usually just ignore them and forget they are there. I do not even scroll down enough to see. If I did have to scroll down to get to somewhere here that I am used to getting to and I happen to see that something is lit up, I would probably look. I simply have looked at the discussion forums enough to know they hardly get used and now have forgotten about them, kind of like out of site out of mind.

SnakeMover

09-08-2003, 12:24 PM

Hi, I'm new here. I was first told to come here for the BOI to check someone out. Since then I've discovered a lot of very good information. The BOI also helped me dodge a bullet with Upsate Exotics. I think this is a great site for newbies to learn more about caring for herps.

I think moving the discussion forums up a bit on the page would be a good thing. Begginers would see For Sale first, then discussion forums. Those of you with a "college level" of interest would know to scroll a little farther down for the in-depth info.

As a matter of fact, I currently have a question I posted in the Boa discussion forum that I'm still waiting for one of you "college level" herpers to answer. :)

Just my $.02

Thanks,
Dennis