Should any types of reptiles be banned???

I just thought I'd start a little poll on a PUBLIC forum.  I WAS a member of NAROA until I began a poll much like this one.  I keep venomous species, and consider myself to be an educated responsible person.  The NAROA was formed to "protect the righte of herp owners" in enabling them to have a national organization defend their local right to own their animals.  There was a poll before mine simply asking if ANY species should be banned.  50% of the responses said "yes."  I followed it up with my poll similar to this one to see exactly WHAT people thought was a "bad" herp.  While only getting a few responses before I left, the majority said crocodilians, while a couple had said venomous.  Well, that was enough for me to want to quit.  I don't need people that claim to be in the same "community" as I to feel the need to descriminate against their fellow herpers.  I personally don't see anything wrong with keeping ANY kind of reptile, amphibian, arthropod, mammal, etc.  

Herp societies in general need to strive for public education, even within their own ranks.  In my opinion, if there is a person out there that keeps corn snakes or kingsnakes, yet feels the need to talk about how "crazy" I am to keep tree vipers, then frankly, I feel that they are no better than the HSUS, API, ELF, PETA, or any other extremist organization.  

BTW,  The views of the people that responded to my poll on the NAROA community site are NOT shared by it's founder Kevin Lorentz.  I respect the man for what he is trying to do, but I personally do not see it happening with the group that he has.

Thanks,

WHEN YOU SAY "BANNED", IS THIS MENT IN ITS ENTIRETY?
OR JUST BANNED AS "PETS"?
SOME I THINK SHOULD BE BANNED IN SOME ASPECTS BUT NOT IN OTHERS (PETS VS'S BREEDING AND RESEARCH).

??
GOD BLESS!
BEN SPARKS <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Ben,

I mean banned as in "private ownership"

Like, if legislatures "banned" venomous snakes, I couldn't keep mine without having a scientific reason, or a zoo license, etc.


ALSO I noticed that the board will only let you vote once....DARN.....so, vote for the one that you feel the MOST important.

Thanks

THANKS FOR THE CLARIFICATION!
I'LL GO VOTE...

THANKS!
BEN SPARKS

Ok....so maybe banned is a vague word......

The original question was "what species do you feel should NOT be kept by provate individuals?"

that should clear it up

Thanks

BANNED
Two words
  Hell no
If you meet the requirements of the animal so it can breed and live a healthy safe life in its entirety
But then if you lived in a high rise, you wouldn't want an anaconda just like you wouldn't want a great dane, maybe a small terrier or a corn snake

clarification?  banned vs permits?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
i ask because of protected and endangered species.  people should be able to apply for permits to breed and study, but i dont think the general public should be able to have them as pets, lol.

maybe have three sections to vote

ban
permit only
free to keep

The whole key is education and responsibility. If you meet or exceed an animals needs and use sense in handling and caging to prevent accidents I see no reason to ban private owership of any animal. Besides think of all the knowledge responsible breeders and keepers provide to the scientific world. If you want to get technical, we are all scientists working towards the goal of better understanding. Look how little the "professinal" scientific world is restricted.
Sacha Skaggs

Dana,

I'm surprised I figured out how to do the basic poll......basically, the question is "do you think that there are ANY types of herps that the general public SHOULD NOT keep?"

If you apply for a permit, then in my book you are no longer a member of the general public.  

So, John, I mean BANNED, as in no longer able to keep, the law says no....you are no longer an American.....you have FEW freedoms, not otherwise stated to in the Bill of Rights.  They will take whatever it is you got.........regulations are one thing....people can and will get around them in some way or another, making us fugitives.

Anyway, I cleared it up I guess.....maybe....oh well......it's see through, if not clearly.

Thanks,

Yes it will be an uphill battle to get as many in the herping community as we can to put up a united front against unfair laws and what is blatant missleading  of the public by the HSUS and API regarding the CDC report on salmonila (sp) .  

Half our battle will be with the animal rights and environment extremest ( some of which have been daclared by the FBI as Terrorest groups )  And missinformed law makers and the general public . The other half of the battle is within the herping community its self .  What I have seen besides apathy in the herping community ( Todd  has seen it alot as well ) is the willingness by other herpers to discreminate against their peers . I really think it makes some look like hypocrets .


 Some might say you can take Todds western diamondback ratteler but like hell are you going to take my Cal King  . That type of thinking is a blatant double standard especialy if you are a large constricter or crocodillian owner . Trust me I have seen it since comming on line in late 98 .  Never have I since I have started in this hobby at age 7 ( been in it for 32 years ) would I ever dream of treating someone like Todd that way . It just aint right .


 Maybe someday things will get better  for us . But unless we unite as many herpers as we can our hobby will be a thing of the past  .


             Kevin Lorentz


              Founder : NAROA


                  " United we Stand Devided we Fall "

I am sure this is a logical fallacy but I love being illogical: Gunowners can buy guns with a permit so I see nothing wrong with owning potentially dangerous reptiles with a permit. Personally I think those owners are insane but I can understand their desire. What is needed is more money is this industry so their can be lobbying.

I chose "other". To clarify I believe that animals obtained illegally should not be allowed to be kept as pets/by private owners. I don't think that a person should profit from an illegal action. Controlling importation/exportation through a quota system will balance the desire to have exotic pets and the need to save those on the endangered lists. I think that for endangered animals certain established breeding programs should have the ability to obtain them over the general public (first pick if you will). By breeding establishements I mean zoos and places like the San Diego Wild Animal Park (which harvested the California Condor, bred them, and reintroduced them to the wild successfully).

I DO NOT believe that a government agency should decide what I keep as a pet in my own private home. If a pet of mine becomes a danger to those around me (i.e. I am an unresponsible pet owner) I should be held liable to the fullest extent (monetary and/or criminally). I refuse to be judged to be in the same class as the moron that lets their pet snake loose while their infant is in the room (or any other story we hear about that removes some of the lower forms from the gene pool). I don't keep venemous snakes. This is because I do not know enough about them and would get bitten and die. I can go to a show and appreciate the beauty of that animal and still have the common sense not to purchase it. This also doesn't mean you can't own a venemous snake if you have the knowledge (if you do buy a venemous snake and don't have the knowledge, thank you for taking yourself out of the gene pool <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>)   Sorry for the rant, but I hate governments and organizations that feel the need to protect us from ourselves.

I just wanted to touch on another point that I was reminded of by Daniel. ZOOS.......Our zoo in Pittsburgh is pathetic to say the least.  They have good mammals, and a nice aquarium (sort of) but the reptile "basement" is absolutely absurd.  They have some tree kangaroos in there, and other non reptilian exhibits.  The only venomous animals they had were gila monstors and a couple Central American rattlers.  I have a bigger selection of venomous snakes than they do.  They HAD a display of the areas only 3 venomous snakes, but they Massasauga cage last time I was there had a sign saying "closed for repairs."  Otherwise known as "we killed it"  The enclosures themselves are below standard as well....the Komodo Dragon barely has room to turn around.  I'm sorry, but if I want to see snakes, I come home.  Most people in the area as well know that they can see a larger more impressive selection at our reptile show.  Even the "venomous not included" show accross town has more impressive species than the zoo.  

One other thing they did that irritated me was to supply the local papers with EXTREME misinformation.  Last year they had a clutch of baby gree anacondas.  They claimed to the reporter that they had "the only captive bred green anacondas in 2 years"  This was AFTER I had seen them on pricelists from BREEDERS.  Not to mention the statement was a blanket form....not saying the only CB in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the Northeast, The country....but they implied THE WORLD.....Stupid people, I swear.....

Anyway, that is my rant about substandard reptile exposure at the Pittsburgh Zoo.....yet another thing that just rubs me the wrong way about reptile keeping in general.......

Thanks,

Hi,

This reply addresses only the original poster's initial posting. As I see it, in my opinion, you seem to be upset that someone else in the herping community has ideas other than your own. Actually that is, in essence, pretty much what you say. This is not Afghanistan, this is the US of A, and people here usually have different if not diametrically opposing ideas about things even when they are on the same side. Getting pissed at people and catching an attitude as experessed by you saying you don't ewant to be in the same 'ommunity' as those who would think of banning j the keeping of certain species only helps the other side in that you are alienating yourself and others from the main stream of herpetoculture.

I can have decent conversations with those who are opposed to keeping any sort of herps and sometimes even convert them to the herper's point of view. I did so recently on another forum at kingsnake.com, however I would never be able to convert a radical hard charger whose only true goal is to be anti something to the fullest extent possible. In your zeal to want to be able to protect the rights of herpers, don't let yourself become the antithesis of a psycho ultra anti herper, by becoming an ultra psycho herper. Just because someone's opinion is different than your's does not mean it is necessarily wrong or evil. You would do better trying to convert others to your point of view through educated forums and discussions wherein you provide plenty of hard cold facts and other evidence to support your idea, in a positive light, that all herps should be ok for private ownership.

Best regards,

Glenn

I think what this poll has proven is that it is difficult to get an accurate answer for these questions. I have seen a lot of people asking Todd to clarify what "this" or "that" means. I think this was the problem with the poll when it was presented to NAROA as well. People could only answer yes or no to questions that left no room for debate such as: Should endangered animals be allowed to be kept in captivity? I think most people would say "YES" but I think we would all agree that restrictions and regulations are needed. I think people should be allowed to keep them but not go out and capture them. If it is endangered a regulation should be in place that requires only those born in captivity to be kept. Also with venomous, I don't think they should be banned, but their must be safe guards in place to keep very small children from buying them without a parents consent. I'm not saying that a child should not be allowed to keep them, just let the parents be responsible if the child has a mishap. So as you can see, I believe your poll to be somewhat erronous and your bailout of NAROA unjustified. I am a member of NAROA and I never heard anyone say that venomous should be "banned" just "regulated". But nobody was allowed to explain their answers. In an article a couple of issues back in Reptiles, a child was sold a sidewinder at a reptile show and had no idea it was venomous. This was irresponsible of the seller and the buyer, but could have been prevented if the child's parents were required to sign a consent form saying they realized that the snake was venomous and they would accept full responibility. I won't answer your poll, but their is my stance!

Pandoras Keeper,

a) I think Todd's frustration comes in people only get upset when their particular hobby is threatened. They don't realize that the mentality that says "All herps are bad" is the same that says "All venemous herps are bad". It is only because of misinformation and the only solution is calm, logical education. What a lot of people don't realize is that once they take away your venemous reptiles they will then have laws in place that only need to be modified to take away your non-venemous reptiles. At that point the herp community would have lost the additional strenght of the venemous owners because they have been legistlated away.

b) I would think selling a pet to a child would be a very dumb thing to do based upon common sense, and a venemous only more so. I also believe that a person selling a venemous animal to a minor would be chargeable under existing criminal law. I know as a kid I would be repairing the hole in the wall that my father threw me through (slight exageration <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> ) if I brought home a pet without permission. And my dad would be down there chewing a new fecal excretetion facility for the showowner / breeder that sold the pet to me.

c) Why do you need a signed piece of paper for a parent to take full responsibility for their child? I thought that was implied by society (and legally) soon after the birthing process.

My concern with initiating registration/permit laws is then that you will have a million different conflicting codes/regulations (there is already enough confusion in the herp world with this) and these laws have a way of expanding over time.

Personal Pet Peeve: Why do we in America feel that we need to write laws to protect ourselves against everything including ourselves?

well, i didnt get to vote cuz i checked the stats first--oops, null vote.
so i'll cast my vote here instead.

i liked daniel's "other" vote--i agree that it should not be ok for people to obtain animals illegaly (ie smuggling).
i am also suprised that so many people here who seem to care about reptiles, would want it to be ok for any ole shmoe to house endangered species in their living rooms.  so can i go hunt down some gila monsters and catch a couple (right if i can find them)--put one in my bathtub and sell the other at the next herp show i go to?  how about texas horned lizards--i know i can still find some of them--the kids go crazy for horny toads--and these are the cool subspecies, hot sellers!(btw, some guy got on the ks horned lizard forum in the past few days saying he was sold a texas horned lizard at Lee Watson Swap without knowing it was a protected species--i hope he was mistaken).  so i definately think there are certain species that need protection from us.  i think that "private ownership" of these animals should be allowed for the sake of breeding and study, not for a show piece or pet...i also think that private breeders have a better chance of success with breeding these animals than most zoos and herpetologists.  

i see no problem with hots as long as people are a little scrupulous with who they sell to (kids) and try to provide some caresheet info that includes handling.  but i think that should be up to show promoters and breeders/dealers--not the govt.

it stinks that there are so many irresponsible people out there keeping, breeding, and dealing in reptiles--these are the people that give the govt the excuse to come in and take away our rights.  i do agree that any regulation can often be interpretted losely by judges and we could wind up not being able to keep herps at all.  so, people, let's try to set the best example possible with responsible keeping, breeding, and dealing.  there are plenty of times i feel like taking away someone's animal for it's own good.

so, my vote
other (illegal) and endangered species shouldnt be pets for a 12 yr old.

Dana

Todd, I just want to say to you I think the poll is a great idea for imformation's sake. It's nice to know how our fellow herpers feel.
To everyone else, our opinions are just that: OPINIONS. It hold no bearing one way or he other on how our hobby is goverened. As far as I know, none of us hold any state offices and all the pissing and moaning and fighting amongst ourselves is going to get us no where. I take the slamming of venomous keepers very persnally. I've been working with and keeping hots for years and I absolutly love it. I am aware, however, that not everyone feels this way. Keep in mind kids, a few herp keepers that are anti hot aren't going to cause a major downfall of the herp industry!!! Grandma loves her poodle, but would never in a milloin lifetimes have a pit bull. Guess what? Her opinion means jack! The pit bull breeders can't keep up with the demand for the dogs because others have an opinion that differs from hers about what makes a good pet.
A large python with a bad attitude can be just as deadly as a crotalid, and that, my friends, is a fact. I'm sure we all remember the boy that was killed a couple years ago by the family's rock python when it once again escaped from it's poor enclosure. If that isn't considered a bannable offense by the general public, I can't see how keeping hots would be.
Again, this is just the way I see things. Am I bias? Absolutly! I've never had a mishap with a venomous snake and I fully intend to keep it that way. It was nailed on the head above: it's about education, respect and responsability. I'm  sure some of you will be unhappy with what I've had to say, and that's ok with me. We don't all agree on this subject but is that really a big surpise? We don't HAVE to agree, but we should, IMHO, have a mutual respect for one another.
Todd, again, I want to thank you for bringing this to light. I'm proud to call you a fellow herper.

Latha math an drosa

Galadriel

Well its no secret how I feel folks . And I find the poll results so far very interesting . I also like a format that lets you make comments . I love all herps so I guess that kind of puts me on both sides so to speak .

 Gala is right about large boids . How could I say keep large boids legal and turn around and say ban hots ? That  would be illogical. One pissed off adult Burm could kill   a big guy like me just as a Mamba could kill me . She is also right about education . If we do not tell people about the animals we keep and how we keep them as responsible herpers how will they know about it ? Now I know not everyone out there will listen But maybe we can get through to  some in Government and the public and they will find out they are not evil animals that myths and legends make them out to be .

  We will never know untill we start getting out there and telling people about them . In the mean time respect your fellow herper and what he our she keeps .  You  never know that person may help us save our hobby or help restore what some states have lost . Its up to ALL of us .


              Kevin

At one time I would have been totally against any type of ban. And I still lean that way. But I'm not so sure that some type of regulation isn't appropriate for some species. What changed my mind is that a friend of mine (who I consider a very responsible keeper) was bitten by one of his Cobras. Fortunately he survived and was able to contain the animal before going to the hospital. My point is we have laws and regulations to protect the public from people who drink, handle firearms, and many other things irresponsibly. It may be appropriate to have the same type of regulation for some reptile species. Freedom is a fine thing until someone elses freedom kills one of your loved ones. Buy the way I find venomous animals fascinating and enjoy visiting friends who keep them. But I'm also glade I don't live next door. this may not make any sense but who says it has to?