Killing 100's and 1000's for the mighty dollar

Why do this well known businesses keep trafficking in ball pythons and savannahs? I understand the little known people doing it (yea right) but companies that don't have to are selling lots of 100 and more and it is disgusting. Yes i know they are cheap and so on but my list of who not to purchase from is growing. The main one i see lately is B.S. reptiles. Defend the practice if you will as i only want to know why a person who enjoys herps would destroy a population of wild animals. Ben Siegel i would like to know from you since you sell them. I am not attacking you but want to know first hand what goes through your mind when you see all those animals cramped into boxes and arrive at your door? I know they don't come individualy packaged. Also how many die before they even make it to your door? Please enlighten me as to your reasoning.  
  Please don't make an excuse for these people such as they're habitat is being destroyed so they are helping or the numbers taken from the wild are still low. I only mentioned the two (balls and sav) as they are good examples. Times like these make me wish they're was a total ban on imports, yes a total ban on these wild caught herps. I know all the arguements but if someone is abusing a honor not a right then hell take it from them and let them find a another way to make a living. Why don't some of their peers comment on this or is this a line you don't cross. Watch and say nothing as your peers sell 100 lots of them until they no longer can sustain a pop. in th wild. We all know inport export laws mean nothing or their wouldn't be a list longer than my arm of endangered animals. Speak up those of you who do this and those who don't (so i know who else to ad to the list). Enough ranting and people, have a voice and stop buying from these people til they get the message it's not ok...  Joel Holloman

First off, just for the record, the EARTH is not doomed, the species that live on it are in trouble.  If we blow each other all to hell with nuclear strikes, humans and thousands of other species will likely be wiped out, but the EARTH itself will still be here, we will not.  

Now, that being said, I think this is an issue that no amount of reasonable or unreasonable argument will help.  I ride both sides of the fence when it comes to imports.  I agree that some are fine, and others are not.  And if you don't understand what these hundreds of ball pythons are exactly, you will rant and rave that it is the rape of the natural world.  In some respects, it is, but in so many others it is not.  It is a fine line to be on either side of, but you have already made up your mind and it does not matter what anyone says, you will call them criminals or destroyers of nature or whatever makes you feel better at night, so why is there any point for these dealers to come defend themselves to you?  
If you hate the importation of animals so much, why aren't you doing something about it?  I have no respect for someone that complains about something they disagree with, yet do nothing but whine about it anonymously on a web forum just to gain some attention or start a flame war.  If you wish to seek change, DO something to inact that change.  Don't just whine about it.

Also, before you so admonish the importation of animals, just think about where the captive bred beauties you have in your home originated...

Joel, great idea!  Here's how it will work.  The US will ban all imports on animals.  So the exporters will have to send them somewhere else.  The asian market loves them, so most of them will go there.  OH Wait, did I mention they really love them, like w/ rice, as dinner.  So there will be no babies because the exporters will just catch the adults and ship them no matter what season it is.  They won't hold them and let them reproduce they'll just ship them to their deaths.  That'll fix the problem.
The animals that make it to this country and into the pet trade at least have as shot at reproducing.  Most animals don't, check the numbers, the skin trade still outweighs the live animal trade big time.  If you really want to fix the problem go to Africa and open up a company that pays a desent wage to Africans, and take a couple thousand other companies w/ you.  Oh, and while you're at it make sure your business doesn't destroy the land or pollute the air or cause any habitat destruction while being built. Because the only way to fix this problem is the give the people in the exporting company an alternative means w/ which to support themselves.
We can't even conserve our own species.  Hell here in FL they bulldoze acres and acres of Indigo and Gopher tort habitat every single day.  Why? Because we so desperately need another strip mall?  Because we just can't live w/o another retirement community?  No, because we are the dominate species on the planet and we are hell-bent on proving it.  We won't stop until the planet stops us.  Never have, never will.  
Importing animals into the pet trade is an imperfect answer to a horrible situation.  But, captive propagation is the ONLY chance many of these animals have period.  They can not, and will not survive in the wild because of the pressures we exert upon them, with collection for one means or another and most horribly habitat destruction.  So until you, me, and every other person on the planet is willing to turn off all our appliances, walk to work, grow our own food, and stop having kids, this explotation of the planet and it's resources will continue.
There's good news though, you're right, Africa's wild population cannot support these habits much longer, eventually there will not be enough animals left to supply us with babies this cheap.  As the price of imports rises the value of cb animals will rise w/ it.  Soon cb balls will be about the same price as farm raised, and then the demand for farm raised will drop.  Unfortunately, the adults will still be sold for skins and food until CITES bans their export.  So bitching at Ben or whoever won't fix a thing.  But, possibly if you donate funds (lots and lots of them) to a study of the effects of the export trade on wild populations, and then bribe the right people in Africa to look at it, and then bribe some more people to pass some laws about it, and then pay for the troops to enforce it, maybe you can make a difference.  Or you could just take the nice baby ball python that you can get from Ben to your local school and EDUCATE the kids there about them, and maybe someday after the planet (or ourselves) kills most of us off, they can do something about reintroducing these animals to the wild. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

The HONEST Biological perspective.  IMHO

Rob,
I asked a question not for you to tell me what or what i am not doing. It says discussion forum so if you don't like my question feel free to not answer. I did not whine about anything. I stated a question and how i feel. You don't me and i dont know you so until you do don't feel free to tell me what i am doing. This is a discussion forum and i can and will do so.  Now as for the captive bred beauties i have in my house, i have  are not imported by the ton. If Ben or any other chooses to not reply thats their right. I wanted to here from someone who does this to see what there reasons were. My mind is not made up on anything, but i appreciate your telling me about myself. I have not a thing against Ben or any others. I talked to him via email before and he seems like a nice guy. I did not bash him so straying from what i asked is irrelavent. I forgot tht old saying if everyone else is doing it then it's ok for me to. I know what other countries are doing and i can't fault a starving people from doing what they're doing hell were paying them,  but i haven't seen anyone here starving enough to import tons of one species. So Rob stop trying to attack me unless you know me or what i'm doing don't judge as i haven't judged you. In the future try and stick to the point. You complain about flame wars but you yourself couldn't wait to as you say "rant" about me who you know so well.  Last thing i know all about species needing to be imported to add new blood, and so on but not by the ton and if you believe that i have some land to sell you.  Remember Rob if you don't like a topic feel free to not reply it your right...

My feelings on this subject are this: importing animals that are not commonly bred in captivity is one thing but importing thousands of ball pythons every year is just not right, especially considering the fact that many of them die within a few weeks or months. Yes, we all have to make money but this way? It makes me sad to read all the "Farm Hatched Baby Balls $10 ea" ads this time of year and I wish it would stop. Those of us who feel this way should do our best to educate others and to teach them that animals should not be treated this way. I am aware that there are many that disagree with me on this issue and that's cool, public forums are for discussing and debating issues such as these (in a civil way of course).

Peace

Actually Joel, I found the topic very interesting and offered my opinions on your post and the ones that followed.  As you say it is your right to post it, it is mine as well to respond.  

However, it was not my intent to start a flame war.  However, your post seemed to have a very negative opinion towards the importation and sale of large quantities of animals.  And you seemed very opinionated on the subject and bothered by it.  I do not blame you at all as the importation of thousands of ball pythons every year when there is already a very viable and apparently stable CB population does NOT make alot of sense(more on that in a sec).  By pointing out that you should do something more than complain about it here, I meant if you feel strongly enough about the subject, do something to bring about change.  And yes, no matter what species you keep in your home, be it a Green Tree Python or a Leopard Gecko, at one point in the captive history of the species, only wild caught imports were available.  That was my point, no matter how rare or common, all captive bred reptiles are descended from wild caught stock, whether rare or common.
I was not implying your animals were imports(and there is nothing wrong with that if they were).

As far as why thousands are imported every year, there are two reasons from what I can see.  One is the chance for something wierd to pop up.  Everyone is hoping to get the next piebalds or albinos out of their import ball pythons at some point.  So they buy tons of cheap imports to breed and see what pops up.  The chances are better for odditties when you have few thousand as opposed to a couple dozen.  
The second is obvious and you pointed it out yourself, they are cheap.  Most import ball pythons are "ranched" in Africa by the thousands and are cheap.  The majority that come in are not simply pulled from the wild, though of course a good portion of them are.  Most are from gravid females caught in the wild, which lay eggs, the eggs hatch in Africa, and then the babies are exported.  I have read and have been told that the adult females are released back to their capture site, but I highly doubt this is always the case.  And since they are so cheap, they can be brought here and then resold for a low, but still profitable price.  So for those that do it, it is an easy way to pay the bills and sell animals without a massive overhead, at least in my opinion.  

I do agree that some animals should be imported to help strengthen captive bloodlines, establish a species in captivity, and help prevent inbreeding depression within stable captive populations, however, the massive importation of an animal with a very stable captive population like the Ball Python is ridiculous.  Maybe if they were only brought in a few hundred or a thousand per year, the situation wouldn't seem so nuts, but when thousands upon thousands are imported during the spring and summer each year, and when thousands are successfully bred and hatched here in the US, it makes you go...HMMMM, why are they still coming in by the cratefull?
But as long as pet stores and consumers are still buying them, and as long as laws aren't put in place to more closely regulate these things, this will continue.  

I am not against all importers, though.  I know several.  And to be honest, without them, we wouldn't even have this hobby to discuss and enjoy and bicker over.  But for some species, I belive that the focus should move away from importation and toward captive breeding.

See how easy that was to say hat you did with out telling me what i'm thinking and i'm ranting and so on. You said what you had to say without all the negative comments. Simply saying it the way you just did makes more sense than what you did the first time. I know the captive hatch thing but these are coming in way to much for that to be true. You asked what am i doing aside from commenting? I am doing what one person can do. I do not buy from those that sell these or other wild caught, captive hatched by the hundreds of thousands. I spend my money with those that captive breed rather than sell cheap imports. I pay a higher price for my normal looking animals but i am happy with them and can sleep at night knowing i am not supporting those that do. I tell people i see and talk to that are new to the hobby about who is selling these and why they should not buy from them but to pay a higher price for a healthy, feeding, captive born animal as opposed to a possibly sick, infested, non feeding wild caught reptile. If all people would do the same and not buy from these guys until they stopped the practice i would not need to bring this up. Go to the boa forum on kingsnake as see the others that have the same feeling as i. It's easy to justify why you do something it's harder to say no to easy money at the expense. When these countries shut down the importation like Austrailia ( i agree with them) then all of those who see nothing wrong with what's going on can complain and make excuses for not doing anything. Rob glad to see your comments were on the subject and not myself where i was hoping comments would be.... Joel Holloman

Ill dig out the old pics, you guys may find these rather intersting, some of you may have seen them I had a web site up about the conditions reptiles have to live through while in transit, its prety graphic I pulled it down because the humaniacs were trying to steal and use the pics in their bullsh!t lawsuit, but gimmy a week and ill throw them on my site and put a link in here, I dont really think its the fact many species are being imported its how they are being transported, i mean I dont agree with ball pythons but it would be nice to see some more dumerils or ground boas for genitic diversity, but seeing these animals come in crushed and everything else is waht really sucks, anyway ill throw those up in a few days

Steve,

whoa there! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  I was saying that although we humans and our environment are in danger, the PLANET is not.  Humans do not have the ability to destroy a planet.  Destroy the environment we live in and rely on, yes, but the planet we live ON, no.  No matter what we do to ourselves, the Earth will survive the human race.  No matter how highly we rank ourselves, we do not possess that kind of power.  Nothing personal at all about it.

one of the reasons baby balls and baby savannas are imported in such large numbers is that there is not enough captive breeding going on to keep up with demand.  One of the reasons is because breeders can't produce them and compete with the prices of the imports, and they aren't willing to lose money on the deal.  Stop all imports and you will see a HUGE increase in the number of people producing ball pythons and savanna monitors.  Why, because the price will increase substantially.  Look at what has happened to prehensile tailed skinks.  A year ago no one wanted to breed them because they only had one or two babies a year and it was cheaper to buy imports.  Now that imports are banned and you can get 500 bucks for a baby, people are falling all over themseles to cash in on the action.  

Its not just the importers who are "In it for the bucks"   I guarantee that if the majority of reptile breeders couldn't make money at breeding their animals they would not be doing it.  I'm not ripping that,  I would not want to keep pouring money into a venture that was losing me money either.  On the other hand,  I am not going to sit back and rip somebody else for making money if I am not prepared to do something about it.  

If I had the room, the first breeding group I would set up would be green water dragons (oooh, lots of money in that)  next, collared lizards and chuckwallas (I'd be rolling in cash then)  Why would I choose these animals, Because I LIKE them, and I think that they as a species, could benefit from captive breeding. Not that my efforts would make a difference in the big picture, but if I could produce a few dozen animals each year, and get them into homes of people who would otherwise buy WC animals I feel that I would have done some good.  

My female ball python has just laid six eggs,  they all look good so far,  I am so excited about it I am looking for more females to add to my collection so hopefully I can produce more next year.  I just wish I had a few of the half dozen or so adult females back that I have sold over the years. This is the first year I have gotten fertile eggs from her, and even though I have other snakes that I like more than the balls, I am more excited about producing CBB babies of that species than anything else I have.  Why, not because I can make more money off them,  its just that I will be able to provide my customers with a better alternative than they will be getting at most other places.

I guess I have gotten a bit off topic.  It just makes me mad when I hear people bitching about the number of imports, but then say they are not willing to do any captive breeding of the species in question because there is no money in it.  Mind you jusmebabe, I am not putting you into this category.  You are bitching about the number of imports, but I have no idea if you fit into the latter category.  

Steve Schindler
Tropical Oasis

Thanx for you thoughts Steve. I wanted to get other views and others input. I am not a breeder so i don't fit into that catagory so no harm no foul. I am doing what i said i was and that's not purchasing reptiles, cages, supplies from those who do. I if i am going to purchase from who ever i check their  lists. If i see those type of ads i go elsewhere and let them know why i did so. If you consider my post b---ching so be it i will b--ch until i die. None the less thanx for your input as far as the topic goes.

you all might be interested in checking out the recent thread  on ball python imports in the kingsnake boa forum.  Robyn from Proexotics had some interesting stats.

Dana

Be careful who you agree with in a thread like this. Do some research before you answer. Don't just research the Ball Python dilemma, but look at other similar issues that have arisen in the past and check out the results of those. The people posting lots of the emotionally inflammatory rhetoric herein may actually be trying to get herpers (note I did not say fellow herpers) to agree so that they can strengthen there own stand, one that may not be beneficial to the continuation of the herping hobby. What I mean is be careful of the wolf in sheep's clothing. The people saying oooohhh look at how awful this is for the snakes, maybe extremely happy when you agree because now those people can show that even snakekeepers agree with them. If those people are members of groups like PETA or the Humane Society of the US - my belief (and this is just my personal opinion) is WATCH OUT. Now they would be able to show that they have the support of members of the actual groups that they have been trying to squash (herp owners if I understand them correctly are one of their targets). I am not saying that this is the case here, I am simply saying that it is a possibility that it could happen, and this is just the type of issue where we would be given enough rope to hang ourselves.

So b careful when you call for extremist measures such as complete bans on imports, be even more careful when you agree with someone who does, especially if you do not know the complete agenda of the people calling for such extremes, and be careful of those who would capitalize on our agreeing that such extremes are necessary.

Please note that I am not giving my opinion about the issues of whether or not there should be an extreme move like a total ban on imports, but am just giving a friendly warning about those who I believe (in my personal opinion) would maybe try to screw us with our own words.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

Dana, I glanced at one of Robyn's posts concerning baby balls and was amused that even though this time of year "makes him sick,"  his company still participates in the baby ball market every year.  I also find it amusing that so many people choose to complain about the practice even though they themselves participate.  If you own a herp, it's bloodlines can be traced to the wild, plan and simple.  I don't think it's fair, for now experienced herpers, to complain about dealers selling baby balls and savannahs to an eager public, when they themselves either used to be part of that eager public, or where they were once the dealers themselves.  Just because your herp business has now progressed to be one that deals w/ nothing but c.b.b. high dollar animals, don't forget what got you there.  Many of the "BIG Names" in this industry made the money that got them where they are from albino burms.  Those bloodlines can be traced to the albino burms IMPORTED by Tom Crutchfield years agos.  Many of those same people now "look down their noses" at dealers selling imported animals.  Hypocritical if you ask me.
This is an industry.  As with all industrys, we live and die by our customers.  When our customers no longer want imported baby balls and savannahs we will stop selling them, until then, if you don't want them, don't buy them.

I agree about people having an agenda. I have none. My point is bringing these animals in by the ton is ridiculus.

Of course all herps came from wild caught no one is denying that.  Your point? You as well as everyone selling thm have to know what damage is being done.
I happily spend my money with those who don't buy herps of any kind by the thousands and don't buy from those of you who do it's that simple.
I love when people ask what are you doing to stop this instead of complaining. Ask yourself the same question when you finish selling you inventory of thousands of imports.
What does the fact that known breeders have moved away fom wc and sell cb/cbb? They may have sold some wc or strengthened their blood lines not a problem. It's good they did.
I guess when it's all said and done those who can will and those who can't won't (survive).
Glenn Bartley, i don't and never worked for the ASPCA and i would never work or have anything to do with PETA as i disagree with their views. If you believe i started this in an emotionally inflammatory way to spread  rhetoric then you are not seeing what i typed.

Brian Conley, you are right until people stop buying from those selling cheap , disposable herps, i guess you and others will continue to sell them. Last thing, i know you always inform your customers how difficult it is to get these imports started feeding, and to take the snake they bought for 20.00 to the vet and get it treated and that it could cost them 7X or more what they paid for it if it survives?. Do you suggest they buy your cb ones (if you have any) for more money but they are healthy and feeding and will give them years of enjoyment instead of tossing it in a trash can because they weren't told the difficulties that lay ahead and the animal failed to thrive?
Joel Holloman

A point I just thought of. Many industries have trade tariffs and quotas to protect the native industries (steel being one that was in the news recently). If this were done so that a CB would sell at the same rate as an import but at a level that is profitable for the breeders then you would see more breeders and less imports.

Joe Bloe General Public Person going from booth to booth at a reptile show or looking through the mom/pop petstore doesn't know what WC and CB means. They see snake A for $x and snake B for $x+5. They will 9 times out of 10 buy snake A UNLESS they are educated in why snake B is worth $5 more and convinced that justifies the price.

In an open market place demand always drives sales. If vendor A refuses to sell a product then the gap will be filled by another vendor. I've seen a few posts on the BOI where someone has inquired about a vendor, gotten negative responses about them and then bought anyhow, only to be burned and come back to complain. Customers do not purchase based upon logical decisions (as a rule of thumb). One of those illogical reasons is "getting a deal". As a society we place a point of pride (peer pressure) on getting a good deal and saving a buck. As a vendor you will need to override (you can't remove the impulse) that purchase impulse with one stronger (quality). [sorry, I wrote a paper for a marketing class on why consumers purchase <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> ].

Joel, I don't think Glenn was "targeting" you per se but rather just throwing up a caution flag. He is correct in that lobby groups will utilize ANY sliding of our position as herpers to get the momentum on their side.

Thanx Daniel i justed wanted to make clear that i have no affiliation with any group what so ever. I do appreciate your opinion here and the way you stated it.  If we want to keep outsiders from getting involved in herp related issues i think those out there who are giving them ammo should act responsible and think about the fall out over the long term and not the short term financial gain..

I can't complain about importation of snakes.
I am sure the ones I have originated from wild caught adults somewhere in their blood line.

I am not gonna say.."I will not buy ANYTHING from someone who imports animals"  because...SURPRISE.......somewhere along the line I would not have my animals if it were'nt for imports.

I'm not complaining about the importation of wild animals as everyone knows they come from wild caught. The topic was the importation of thousand upon thousands which all herps are not.
I think most know that somewhere along the line reptiles come from imports but buying from someone who sells them in 100 lots "wild caught" is not good "SURPRISE".... One thing i'm glad of is they stopped importing Prehensile Tail Skinks and now those who want them have to pay a higher price to get them. At the rate balls are going they hopefully will fall under the same umbrella...

Joel, I'll assume you were being sarcastic when you said you were sure I told customers about all that stuff.  If you weren't, then you've probably been to one of my tables somewhere.  The truth is, yes, I tell the customer everything they are willing to listen to.  Just this weekend I spent 10 mins. basically begging a woman not to buy an iguana, she nodded politely and bought it anyway.  I had three groups of balls on the table.  Labeled as follows:  "c.b.fresh from the farm," "c.b. feeding," and "c.b. pastels feeding."  The public chose to buy two pastels, the flea market guy took 3 of the fresh from the farm.  All the animals came from the same place, the only difference was that the feeding groups came in a week sooner so I had a chance to feed them.  There's a market for both, so I'll cater to both.
The damage that you speak of will happen whether we buy all the babies or not.  The people of third world countries MUST use every means at their disposal just to stay alive, exporting animals is one of those means.  My opinion is either we take them as pets or they will shipped to asia for food, or killed for their skins.  I like my plan better.  
Finally, your opinion of imported and w.c. herps is extremely poor.  Does it come from personal experience or just what you've read and heard.  I ask because I deal w/ 100's if 1000's of these animals every year and frankly if I had half the problems you're expecting from them I would have pulled my hair out and ran away screaming long ago.  The fact of the matter is that most of the animals is questions do very well in captivity with very little "special" care.  I think one of the reasons we see so many balls, savannahs, niles, uros, etc, is because they readily adapt to life in captivity.  Yes, we still get animals like forest hingeback torts that don't do well, but at least some do survive because they do find good homes w/ knowledgable people, instead of a stew pot in somebody elses'. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>