Advice on who's good and who's not at the Tampa show.

http://www.reptileandexoticanimalshow.com/inter/exh.html

Above is the link to the vendors page for the Florida International Reptile Exhibition this weekend. It's my first time going to a bigger show and without any "experianced" herpers to help guide me to decent dealers.

I am just curious if any of the vendors stick out to you guys as someone I should avoid, or someone I can trust to do good business with.

Obviously, SerpenCo is a trustworthy vendor, but I'm from WI and don't recognize any of the names on the vendor list.

thanks much
hopefully I'll bump into some of y'all there!

i dont know many of them but of the ones i know (breeders only not supplies or feeders)

Leaping Lizards Day Geckos.

ophiological services

suncoast herpetological

cornutopia

serpenco

masterpiece geckos

jamie quick reptile

kevin and charlotte barnett of ectothermics


these people i have either bought from, personally seen their animals at shows or have had friends with good experiences from them. i am not implying any of the others guys are bad or anything,
im just sayig i dont know about the others or have not delt with or heard of them.
i may have missed others, i know alot of people by name but sometimes not by business name.... just look the animals over and the the displays over.. look for anything that stands out and go with you initial gut instinct...

good luck and have fun!!!!

There are alot of great vendors at the Tampa show. If you would like to stop by my table and ask about any certain one please free to do so.

The Tampa show is great, and so are the vendors.

What you need to do is look at the animals more then the vendors. Pay close attention to anything you may consider buying, and you should be ok. Thats the beauty of going to a show, hand picking your animals.


Like Rob said, stop by and talk with a vendor you trust (if any are there you know) and Im sure they can fill you in . However I doubt you are going to find too many vendors badmouthing other vendors, thats just no the way it goes.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
402-934-9906

Tampa show

The last one I went to had many reputable company's....glades herp just to name one....But I did buy a beautiful mail uro that died not 3 days later. Make sure you ask every question you can think of to ensure you are buying a healthy, quality animal. Unfortunately I do not know who it was that I bought the mali from, but most likely it was not treated after import(which was probably a day or so before the show). It is truely sad to have to be so leery in this buisness when there are so many GREAT companies out there. Too bad other people that really do not care about the animals have gotten into the business to make a quick buck at anyone/anything's expense. But tampa also had many beautiful and (I'm sure) healthy animals available. Good luck and happy hunting ;-) E. L.

You cannot go into these shows with

a preconceived idea that was planted in your head by reading a post of a bad experience someone had with a vendor.

For every vendor that someone can complain about, I am sure we can find someone who can tell you how happy they were with their purchase. So these posts can get quite subjective. The best advise I would give you is to go into these shows objectively, look at what your interested in buying, get as much info as you can, and make sure it fits into your budget, and you will do just fine. JERRY TRESSER

True, but you can go into any show in the country knowing that some animals offered may be sub par, and many of which are untreated imports that may or may not have health probs. You just have to be careful purchasing any animals from anywhere via the internet or shows, the show bonus is that you get to see and hold the animals first. I was just trying to make the point that regardless of where you buy your herps, you can NEVER be too careful in inspecting them closely for external parasites, and observing closely also for URI's ect. It's merely common sense, as all dealers' care techniques for the animals are not universal A+ methods, and that's not just the Tampa show, it's any show or anyone selling herps period. My previous post was simply a heads up to be careful, inspect thoroughly, and ask lots of questions for ANYTHING you may be interested in, and that's a little piece of universal advice for any show. -EL

Personally, I dont go

to these show with a preconceived mindset about any Vendor. Nor do I go looking for the best price. I am their to purchase. If the price is right and the animal is what I am looking for, I buy. I personally am not interested in their husbandry techniques, nor do I care if its captive bred or wild caught. I have my own methods for caring for these animals. Needless to say c.b are my geckos of choice, but sometimes in order to start a colony, my choices are limited to include imports.

But getting back to the above post, what Eric pointed out makes good common sense, but its something that a breeder or experienced handler already knows. The only thing that may come into light is the history of the parentage if its c.b. or additional information about the animal itself.

I also am not concerned, about looking for animals that are A+ or how the vendor cared for the animal as Eric pointed out. In many cases, these animals could be their on consignment, or just recently got into the hands of the vendor, or for whatever reason the vendor is looking to move out the animals. I really dont care. These shows are an avenue that I can travel down, and look for myself. Its an opportunity to see what I am buying as well as seeing what may be new on the market. Sometimes also I like to put a face to a name. I am just grateful, that their are shows. JERRY TRESSER

Agreed. A friend of mine made it all clear the other night for me when he simply said "the only guarantee in the reptile business is no guarantee", and it's sad, but there are people out there who make a buck at the animals' expense. You get what you pay for after all . -Eric

Eric, you stated that you purchased a "beautiful mali." If you thought it was beautiful, I'm going to reason that you spent some time inspecting it. If you, an educated buyer, could not find enough wrong with it to know it would die 3 days later, how is the vendor whos trying to take care of 100's or maybe 1000's of animals supposed to know? Outwardly healthy is the best you can hope for when dealing w/ imports, especially low end imports like malis, balls, common boas, etc. Everyone has those animals, the only way to compete is to try and have the same low price, spend time talking to the customers, and explain to them what exactly it is they are buying. Yet, even when the vendor does that, some people think that when the animal dies 3 days, 7 days, 3 weeks later, because they, the true "owners," didn't treat it, or house it properly, the vendor owes them something. The only thing a vendor owes you is HONESTY. That honesty may be, I just got these in Thurday and it is sold as is w/ no guarantee, that's ok. You, the buyer, owe yourself, and the animal the honesty to know whether or not you are ready to deal w/ that type of animal, and are you willing to take the risk that comes with owning an animal like this. If not, don't buy it!

Agreed! I'm not saying anything bad about any vendors anywhere! The mali we purchased was in pristine external condition, it simply had not been treated and had been sold to us saying that it had!!! There's no way to know, and that was my point!!! If the vendor had been honest about it we would have treated it ourselves!!! It was just a shining example of my point, whether you buy reptiles online, pet shops, or at shows, that there are people out there who will not be honest with you to turn a buck. Isn't that why the BOI is here in the first place, to sort such persons out ??? I mean no offense to anyone whatsoever, just trying to lay down some common sense to the original inquiry about the vendors at the Tampa show. It's better to know what and most importantly who you're dealing with in the business. Not knowing may plainly and simply cost you money and heartache in the long run. My post was simply a call to be careful, know what you're getting and who you're getting it from, nothing more. This isn't meant as anything other than a warning, and I don't care where the show is, just be selective in your purchases!

Oh, so they told you it was treated! That's BS! I'd post them here. People ask me that all the time, and I always wondered why anyone would think a $10 ball or $25 mali was "treated." It costs more to treat them than the animal costs. Yeah, lying show vendors should get the same treatment online lyers get. Folks if you're paying low prices for imports, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TREATED! When someone tells you otherwise, quiz them. Ask them with what, for what, dosages, etc. That story would breakdown real quick.

Alas, this was before I began using the BOI and I've since lost the vendor's business card so I can't point out the sack of dung that sold it to me, and I was just trying to spread a little common sense to ask questions and throughly inspect any animals that anyone purchases to the original poster. I meant no offense to anyone, like I said, save the guy who misrepresented the mali we purchased. -Eric Lago

well BRIAN, your point is well taken,

however, honesty has nothing to do with selling reptiles. At least not to diehards like myself. I would prefer to see a sign on a table that says, sold as is, no guarantee, . My experience has shown me that its guaranteed that a percentage of the reptiles will die anyway. I look at it as a " get it while you can attitude " and if its a good price , then thats even better.

The obligation of the vendor is to the money, not the reptile. Unless you can afford to loose business because of your honesty, it does not pay for a vendor to cut his own throat with guarantees, information that may or may not be true, whether its captive bred or wild caught. Even under the of circumstances, and being an honest abe, the animal can die, and the reason is inconsequental, the buyer is out the money and the animal. Your honesty now relies on a refund or a replacement. JERRY TRESSER

On Uromastyx we've found it better not to just shotgun treat imports. It's better to only treat those that test positive with a high level of parasite infection. I've talked to a number of Uro "specialists" and they have the same belief. Just an opinion.

The obligation of the vendor is to the money, not the reptile. Unless you can afford to loose business because of your honesty, it does not pay for a vendor to cut his own throat with guarantees, information that may or may not be true, whether its captive bred or wild caught. Even under the of circumstances, and being an honest abe, the animal can die, and the reason is inconsequental, the buyer is out the money and the animal. Your honesty now relies on a refund or a replacement.

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While I usually agree with a lot of Jerry's posts about business I'm going to disagree with this one. I feel that providing as much education to the customer about the animals they are purchasing (how to take care of it as well as if it's import/cb etc) is part of doing good business and pays off in the long run in repeat business. This education increases the chances of the purchase being a success and the customer being happy in the long run with their experience. With the large number of new people coming into the hobby making sure that they are successful in keeping their reptile (or at the very least that they are satisfied with the purchase and customer service) builds a repeat customer base. If your customers are just reading your sign posted on the front of the cage and moving on you should look at how your doing shows (generic "your" not targeted towards anyone). If they think every WC at the show is the same then they will ONLY buy on price, give them a reason to buy from you other than price.

why anyone would think a $10 ball or $25 mali was "treated." It costs more to treat them than the animal costs

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Don't know where you get your numbers but I can get enough Panacur to treat 2500 lbs for about $8.00 and 50 grams of Flagyl for $16.00 so that would equal mere pennies per animal.

Brian,

First off you are wrong with your statement

bpc said:

Folks if you're paying low prices for imports, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TREATED!

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EVERY animal that is an import that comes into our place IS treated at least once with Pancur. Most receive multiple treatments to help rid them of possible internal parasites. You can't sit there and say that everyone that says the animals have been treated are lying. Treating animals is not expensive to everyone. Luckily I have been treating animals for many years and have a great success with treating them the way we do. It usually only cost less than 20 cents each for the meds to treat each animal and the only other thing is my time in doing so. You obviously don't know the cost of the meds and are probably referring to a Vet's visit and such. There are alot of Vet's that will only charge for the fecal that is performed and not for an entire office visit all you have to do is talk to your Vet and see what they can do for you.
I am unlike most importers who will tell you "most imports are wormed before shipment" when in fact they have never treated an animal in their life. Now we don't guarantee the animals are parasite free but we give them a good start. We always suggest that an import animal is taking to a Vet and given a fecal to ensure if the animals is clear of parasites and if not they need to be treated again. I would suggest that anyone that purchases an import animal (from anyone) have a fecal performed by a vet to ensure they are free.

I'm curious as to whether all the fresh WC animals at the Tampa show keep a lot of the larger breeders away. If you bred high end captive born animals how would you guys feel about setting up your table inches from a tank of untreated WC herps that had just arrived in the country the day before? I know that CB animals can harbor illnesses as well but obviously there is a huge risk exposing your animals to tanks full of freshly imported ball pythons, boas and half dead uromastyxs.

Jerry, I'm hoping I misunderstood your last post or you were just using sarcasm to make a point. That is really unfortunate if those are your true feelings.

DANIEL, The part about doing good

business is being a good businessman. I am certainly not suggesting that you lie to your customer if they ask a question, but the scenereo that Ive seen to often with vendors who will answer a question to insure a sale is to often the main course for getting the sale. For the neophyte who probably has no business even buying herps. Is the lizard cb, sure is!, had it for a year, sure , its a long term w.c. but in great condition as you can see!, these animals have all been inspected and are in great health! we dont sell w.c. on and on! As you can see, it would best serve the vendor not to entertain these methods, to consummate a sale, but this is the rule and not the exception. So when someone makes a purchase and the animal dies within 3 days,one really begins to wonder. I am by no means taking shots at the vendor , what I am saying is that if he changed his method of operation when dealing with the public, it would serve the market better when dealing with the public. Let them know, if they ask, but relate everything to the terms of the business and not the animal. Thats their obligation. I would have very strong reservations selling a knobtail gecko to a kid. Even if he had the money! I dont want you to think that I am relating this converstation to vendors specifically, but generally their are a group of " low quality vendors" who will provide a " yes " to every question asked. In the end, the poor soul who makes a purchase is faced with a contradiction once the animal dies. When brought to the attention of a different vendor, he will say, you should have come to me first. and so the merry go round. JERRY TRESSER

Rob, "treated" and treated properly are 2 different things. Yes, flagyl and panacur are cheap and relatively easy to get. Albon, baytril, and some of the other stuff is not. I believe shotgunning as often as not, does more harm than good. Shotgunning can lead to antibiotic resistant organism's which could spred throughout the industry.

PROPERLY treated animals should MINIMALLY be stool checked and then only treated for the pathogenic organisms present. I do understand what should be done, I am a Biology teacher. $5 ball python + $7 stool check + gas and time to get it done + meds (hopefully the cheap ones) + needles, syringes, tubes, catheters, scales + more time to do the treatments + more time to feed, cage, and clean up after the animals while waiting to finish all the treatments needed to call the animal TREATED (full course for panacur is what, once every 2 weeks for a total of 4 treatments), adds up to way more than $10 for a ball python.

Rob, you may very well "treat" your animals, but one shot of panacur is not a "treated" ball python. As you said, it's a start. If that "treatment" is not continued, all that will happen is that some of those organisms will die (the weak ones) and the rest will have a field-day because there is now less competition. Your "good start" could lead to resistant organisms which could wipe out entire collections. It's the same reason you're supposed to take ALL the bills the doctor prescribes, and not just take them until you feel better. Those animals that finish thier "treatments" could then be called successfully treated only after they have passed a second or maybe a third fecal, weeks or even months down the road. And they could only be called treated for the pathogens which are succeptable to panacur or whatever drug you are using. Additionally, if all you're doing is fecals, then you are not treating for blood-born or respiratory pathogens, unless said pathogens have a life stage which includes the digestive tract.

Rob, you don't sell the animals I'm talking about. You sell animals only after they have been in and passed you tests. That is why your animals cost a little more than the animals I am talking about. You have more in them. But even so, I would not call one or two shots of cattle wormer "treated." If you are saying it costs less than 20 cents to treat an animal then you are not using a new sterile tube after each treatment. And if you're not then each time you stuff that tube down another aniamls throat you run the risk of infecting said animal with another pathogen.