egreptile
New member
Hello,
I have a situation that has arisen over the last month, and I was asked to contact you by the person that the situation pertains to. Please take the time to read this letter through as I need a few responses by respectable colubrid dealers and breeders/keepers. I do appreciate your input and consideration. I know that this is kinda long, but I do appreciate you taking the time to let me know your thoughts. Again, thank you for your time.
On Oct. 19th, 2003 I received a group of baby white sided rat snakes. We asked the dealer if they were all feeding, and he said “oh definitely”. There were 24 in the group, and for the most part they looked good. There were 5-6 in the group that did look thin, and I thought that they would die. Still if I could save 2 of the six then I still have 20 babies for future breeding projects. I did not bother telling the person that I got them from about the thin ones because I just thought that maybe they were waiting on anoles, and they would beef up soon. Plus he gave them to me at a killer deal. There was a little smell of death in the container, but I assumed that he fed to close to having them shipped up. When we got home from the show that we were at when we picked them up we set them all up in separate shoe boxes on aspen with a water dish in a slide rack. We allowed them until the 29th to settle in before feeding them. At this point one of the thin ones had died. We fed them all small pinkies (as we always do when bringing babies home from a show). We feed f/t, and we lay it in the front of the container. This way we know that the snake ate or not, and on that occasion 3 did not feed. We have a vet that comes by every two weeks to check over all new arrivals, and anything that would be having problems. When she came by on Friday Oct. 31 she wanted to see all the new babies that we brought back from the show, and when I started pulling them out to show her I noticed that there were regurgitations in the containers. The vet asked me several questions about them like are they CB, who did I get them from, did they say that they had problem, you know the normal questions to ask. Well I thought this was very odd that 14 of them puked. The vet administered a very small amount of panacur to the babies that puked, and asked me to give them two weeks before feeding them again because of the stomach acid that comes up with the food when it is puked. When I went in to feed the next week the six that did not puke, and to check on the other babies that did puke I noticed that four more babies had died. I fed the other six, and e-mailed the person that I got them from to let them know that they were dying. I guess one thing that was really bothering me was that it was not only the skinny ones that were dying off, but the good looking ones also. This is on the 4th of October, and he still says that they were doing excellent. ALL were feeding (odd why were there 5 that were nothing but a skeleton and skin flaps if they were all eating), and he had not lost any. Then he said “well I take that back I lost one on the way to the show”. I told him all of what has been typed up to this point, and he asked me why they were given panacur. I told him that they were given it because a vet did it, and that they were puking. They don’t puke when nothing is wrong with them. We knew that it was not temperature or other variables because they are in a room with around 300 other snakes. There were no other animals that puked or had any ill reaction including the animals in the same rack system as the baby rat snakes, and we have not had a CB animal die in about a year before these. When we go through to clean on Saturday I notice that 2 of the six that were feeding fine are now puking, and were dead before the vet came back on the 14th of October along with 4 others. When we fed again on the 12th the same four ate again, and out of the other 13 that were left the two still did not eat, and the other 11 did. Two days later on the 14th twelve had puked, and 2 more had died. I cleaned all of their water dishes and cages well at this point, and did not check on them again until the 19th to feed the same three that were eating. The vet was coming on the 21st, so I thought better to leave the other alone until she got there. We checked on all of the babies again on Friday and the three that had been eating had puked and died, and along with six others. Now I am sitting at one month with them, and 22 dead babies in the freezer. I had called between deaths, but he did not return my messages. I got him on the phone on the 21st to find out what his thoughts are on the subject, and he still says that they were feeding fine. He says that he got them on July 1st, 2003, and they fed for him ever week since. I would think that if they had fed for 16 weeks strait that they would be a little larger than hatchling size. Basically he will not take any responsibility for them, and he does not know what to tell me. Then we argue back and forth about it, and he finally says for me to contact other colubrid breeders and get their opinions on the situation. Please send me your thoughts, advice, or opinions, so that I can get an outsiders view of the situation. Believe me I am not one to ever complain or make a stink about anything. I just don’t like being taken for $2,000 and given this for an explanation, and I just know what I would do in this situation if the tables were turned. Thank you for your time.
Jeremy Coates
I have a situation that has arisen over the last month, and I was asked to contact you by the person that the situation pertains to. Please take the time to read this letter through as I need a few responses by respectable colubrid dealers and breeders/keepers. I do appreciate your input and consideration. I know that this is kinda long, but I do appreciate you taking the time to let me know your thoughts. Again, thank you for your time.
On Oct. 19th, 2003 I received a group of baby white sided rat snakes. We asked the dealer if they were all feeding, and he said “oh definitely”. There were 24 in the group, and for the most part they looked good. There were 5-6 in the group that did look thin, and I thought that they would die. Still if I could save 2 of the six then I still have 20 babies for future breeding projects. I did not bother telling the person that I got them from about the thin ones because I just thought that maybe they were waiting on anoles, and they would beef up soon. Plus he gave them to me at a killer deal. There was a little smell of death in the container, but I assumed that he fed to close to having them shipped up. When we got home from the show that we were at when we picked them up we set them all up in separate shoe boxes on aspen with a water dish in a slide rack. We allowed them until the 29th to settle in before feeding them. At this point one of the thin ones had died. We fed them all small pinkies (as we always do when bringing babies home from a show). We feed f/t, and we lay it in the front of the container. This way we know that the snake ate or not, and on that occasion 3 did not feed. We have a vet that comes by every two weeks to check over all new arrivals, and anything that would be having problems. When she came by on Friday Oct. 31 she wanted to see all the new babies that we brought back from the show, and when I started pulling them out to show her I noticed that there were regurgitations in the containers. The vet asked me several questions about them like are they CB, who did I get them from, did they say that they had problem, you know the normal questions to ask. Well I thought this was very odd that 14 of them puked. The vet administered a very small amount of panacur to the babies that puked, and asked me to give them two weeks before feeding them again because of the stomach acid that comes up with the food when it is puked. When I went in to feed the next week the six that did not puke, and to check on the other babies that did puke I noticed that four more babies had died. I fed the other six, and e-mailed the person that I got them from to let them know that they were dying. I guess one thing that was really bothering me was that it was not only the skinny ones that were dying off, but the good looking ones also. This is on the 4th of October, and he still says that they were doing excellent. ALL were feeding (odd why were there 5 that were nothing but a skeleton and skin flaps if they were all eating), and he had not lost any. Then he said “well I take that back I lost one on the way to the show”. I told him all of what has been typed up to this point, and he asked me why they were given panacur. I told him that they were given it because a vet did it, and that they were puking. They don’t puke when nothing is wrong with them. We knew that it was not temperature or other variables because they are in a room with around 300 other snakes. There were no other animals that puked or had any ill reaction including the animals in the same rack system as the baby rat snakes, and we have not had a CB animal die in about a year before these. When we go through to clean on Saturday I notice that 2 of the six that were feeding fine are now puking, and were dead before the vet came back on the 14th of October along with 4 others. When we fed again on the 12th the same four ate again, and out of the other 13 that were left the two still did not eat, and the other 11 did. Two days later on the 14th twelve had puked, and 2 more had died. I cleaned all of their water dishes and cages well at this point, and did not check on them again until the 19th to feed the same three that were eating. The vet was coming on the 21st, so I thought better to leave the other alone until she got there. We checked on all of the babies again on Friday and the three that had been eating had puked and died, and along with six others. Now I am sitting at one month with them, and 22 dead babies in the freezer. I had called between deaths, but he did not return my messages. I got him on the phone on the 21st to find out what his thoughts are on the subject, and he still says that they were feeding fine. He says that he got them on July 1st, 2003, and they fed for him ever week since. I would think that if they had fed for 16 weeks strait that they would be a little larger than hatchling size. Basically he will not take any responsibility for them, and he does not know what to tell me. Then we argue back and forth about it, and he finally says for me to contact other colubrid breeders and get their opinions on the situation. Please send me your thoughts, advice, or opinions, so that I can get an outsiders view of the situation. Believe me I am not one to ever complain or make a stink about anything. I just don’t like being taken for $2,000 and given this for an explanation, and I just know what I would do in this situation if the tables were turned. Thank you for your time.
Jeremy Coates