Venomoid

I can't stand this malicious practice. Look at this poor creature. I just don't get it.....

Greed.

venomoid?

what is venamoid? i have never heard of this practice but from the loosk of it its not pretty! sorry for the ignorance. im kinda new to this site.

Andy

That's horrendous. Whose hackwork is that?

Venomoiding is the practice of butchering and mutilating a venomous snake in order to turn it into a harmless toy to prop up the ego of some wannabe who is too impatient or too stupid to learn how to handle real venomous snakes but wants to show off his cool pet cobra right now.

Theoretically this operation may be carried out by a veterinarian, but generally speaking they aren't. Most vets won't do this kind of surgery. The majority of the venomoids sold at shows and on the Net are the work of amateur butchers who are using "surgical" tools from Home Depot and no pain medication. In many cases it appears that no post surgery antibiotics are given either, which has predictable results - a lot of dead snakes.

Wouldn't it be nice if......

We held the guy who did that down and carve out his teeth with "Home Depot" surgery kits?


Bryon Adzic

looks to me like a snake eating a mouse.. he already has half the mouse (head, look for the nose) in his mouth...you can see the tail too.. the white mouse is kinda hidden in the paper towel. if you look further down you see the snake get skinnier then bulge out again.. it looks like this snake was maybe undernourished and has just been given a mouse(the bulge to the left in the pic). The reason his jaw looks "deformed" is because its not aligned right from eating the previous mouse.. i fail to see the "butcher" job in this pic.. according to this pic.....the snake IS eating and thats all i see.. I see this as an attempt to flame ppl even more about venomoids..

he already has half the mouse (head, look for the nose) in his mouth...you can see the tail too..

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The mouse is UNDER his head, the tail is emerging from underneath it's jaw.

... what's left of it's jaw.

Venemoids are controversial but I think they do have a place IF the surgery is performed properly by trained people.
Training programs for EMR personnel that may encounter venemous snakes should use venemoids to ensure the safety of the trainees when they are being taught about the species they may encounter. Educational programs that teach about venomous snakes should use venemoids to have a measure of safety when presenting these animals to the public.
I do not feel these should be kept by just anyone who wants to show off that they have a King Cobra as a pet but I do see where they can be valuable embassadors of their species in training programs if the procedure was done under sedation, in a sterile environment, and antibiotics were used to prevent infection.

look again:

The mouse is NOT under the Jaw.... look where the head of the mouse is... look at the black area under the mouse.. the head of the mouse is clearly in the snakes mouth..while the tail is under its head or jaw..

I'm against them 100% and personally can't think of a good reason to mutilate them for our benifit.

I think they do have a place IF the surgery is performed properly by trained people.
Training programs for EMR personnel that may encounter venemous snakes should use venemoids to ensure the safety of the trainees when they are being taught about the species they may encounter.

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Problem is that venomoids don't really act the same after the hack job and the few people who *might* be qualified to perform the surgery are against it for ethical reasons.

Educational programs that teach about venomous snakes should use venemoids to have a measure of safety when presenting these animals to the public

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Normal safety precautions when handling the animals combined with some kind of physical barrier seems a lot better than slicing open an animal's head.

The mouse is NOT under the Jaw.... look where the head of the mouse is... look at the black area under the mouse.. the head of the mouse is clearly in the snakes mouth..while the tail is under its head or jaw..

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I think it is you who shall take a look. It is plain to see the mouse OUT of the snakes mouth, I heve even highlighted it for you with the attached photo. As you can see, this snake has certainly a strong unhealthy appearance to it. I would hate to see what your collection looks like if this looks normal to you.

Venemoids are controversial but I think they do have a place IF the surgery is performed properly by trained people.

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This is also extremely rare, and cannot even come to placing the numbers of 'moids that are available to the general public. That would take the work of some seriously busy vets in order to produce this many that are being sold on a daily basis. I would like to personally know any of you who know of a vet that has done a surgery such as this, or does it enough to produce a quanity enough to sell.

Training programs for EMR personnel that may encounter venemous snakes should use venemoids to ensure the safety of the trainees when they are being taught about the species they may encounter. Educational programs that teach about venomous snakes should use venemoids to have a measure of safety when presenting these animals to the public.

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Again, how can one not get training by sight of a non-moid if they are simply getting trained for encounters and to know what a species looks like? Training with non-vens is certainly available to and many act like them. Some vens are by all means non aggresive as well. So this arguement is weak at best. Also, dealing captive snakes is far different than those that are wild. No better way to train for wild vens than to handle wild vens. I never could grasp this meak agruement.

Any training can be done without 'moids. There are plenty of other options available out there for folks to get the proper training in. I have still not seen a good example of a reason to keep or produce 'moids by pro-moiders out there. They seem to all have the same basic general assumptions and thoughts on the subject.

I attached a pic outlining the mouse ..compare it to the first pic that was used in the thread..

The mouse is bent backwards.. the nose protrudes from within the mouth.. you can see in the attached pic...

I never said the snake looks healthy . I said it looks like the snake is just eating and hasn't been fed in a while.. hence the bulge on the left (pointed to in my attached photo). The jaw is dislodged cause he is/was eating.... does the original thread starter have any more pics of this individual snake,.. as it is confusing.... i would like to see them..


Venomoids and venomoid surgeries have been around for at least 25 years....they have come a long way since then..

I do know ppl who do the surgeries and they are excellent at what they do.. but why would i post the names in here like you want....?

........ so you can lambaste them like you do everyone else in here who not against venomoids.. I don't think so..

I work with a collection of venomoids. Many of them are going on 10+ years..without any ill effects.. did some snakes die....yeah..did many live as well..yes..


My opinions:

1. When everyone speaks of hackjobs and butchers and that poor harmless defenseless snake.. it really makes you sound like a bunch of PETA and HSUS ppl..seriously..

(maybe some ppl are HSUS and PETA members..just my opinion)


2. if venomoids are so bad, why aren't ya out there campaigning against spaying and neutering of dogs and cats.. they get their nuts chopped off don't they..

a dog without Nuts is like a snake without its venom glands.. Is that fair assumption?

3. Maybe Venomous reptile dealers should be more careful who they sell venomous animals too.. too many times i have seen ven. snakes go to ppl that clearly should not.. while this is clearly a whole other issue in itself,
I would much rather have a 17 year old kid down the street get a venomoid gaboon (or a cobra) than to have a actual HOT one and him have a mishap with it....

See, you just go to help prove my point even further.

1. When everyone speaks of hackjobs and butchers and that poor harmless defenseless snake.. it really makes you sound like a bunch of PETA and HSUS ppl..seriously..

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I do not see how this is? Can not a person care for an animal these days without being clumped with morons like those organizations? As I see it...this places you as a selfish person with only your cares in place, not the animal in question. After all, it is a poor helpless and defenseless animal that is being altered for a persons lack of reasearch and understanding of an animal that is generally accepted in the herpetoculture field. It helps only those to lazy to study and train effectively to captively and responcibly keep such animals. It does nothing to help the livelihood of the animal, much like neutering and spaying are proven to do in domesticated household animals like cats and dogs. These animals are also given proper after-care by a qualified vet (as well as the surgery itself).

a dog without Nuts is like a snake without its venom glands.. Is that fair assumption?

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Another weak and completely odd assumption. Any person that is a logical and sound thinker would figure out that these are two very seperate issues and not in any way the same. One helps an animal while one does not.....

I would much rather have a 17 year old kid down the street get a venomoid gaboon (or a cobra) than to have a actual HOT one and him have a mishap with it....

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Again, I argue, that one strong point with venomoids is the fact that many are done by persons without any proper vet schooling or study. Many of these venomoids are capable of envenomation because the surgeries have not been done correctly. This places a false sense of security for a mindless moron (or simply unknowing person) who does not believe this new cool animal posses such a threat.... Although a person who does take time to research and train effectively to captively keep hots knows what he or she is getting into, and has taken proper protocols in order to make sure that when an emergency does take place, that risk is as minimal as can be.

I will say to the end, that the need for venomoids is not needed. Not only has more information been available in herpetoculture in the latest years, but in general people have no excuse to not do things in a correct and responcible manner. The keeping of hots should be left to those who take the time to effectivly train themselves for such a task. There is still plenty of risk for those who buy an "alleged" or "possible" venomoid.

I do not agree with the practice of venomoids. Its a bad thing to do even when done correctly, but even worse when the proper tools are absent. If you think you are not ready for a venomous snake, then dont get one. Dont go get a venomoid. Hopefully, this will all stop soon.

I have to agree with Geckogod2. The mouse is obviously in the snake's mouth. Those who can not see the little nose sticking out of the side must be blind. No, this snake does not look healthy, but where is the evidence that it has had venemoid surgery?

Because

I took the pic off of a KS ad that was marketing it as a Venomoid.

That thing was for sale???

By who???

You know, I'm not one to open my mouth much in threads like this, because I usually go off the deep end. Especially when the arguements start up on Venomoids, etc... but here we are, bickering over whether the mouse is in it's mouth or under it....here we are screaming bloody mutilation...when the fact of the matter is - it's human nature.

Now I'm not pro PETA or anything like that but what the hell is the difference between a cute little puppy with it's ears cropped, a happy little cow on your dinner plate, a dog with no (censored) a kitten with no claws, and a snake with no venom glands??? We as humans do so much (censored) to other living things as well as each other that it's not even funny.

I'm not pro-venomoid either, but I also don't place myself up on a pedestial and scream bloody murder either - barking about morals. Morals???? Are we for real???? We keep these things in a freaking CAGES for godsakes.... they're forced to live their entire lives in a 2 x 2 x ???.... and why??? So we can "look" at them, or "hold" them, or "sell" them for MONEY. We alter EVERYTHING in the world for whatever the reason.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - it's in my humble opinion that if you eat them, spank them, declaw them, crop their ears, put 'em on a chain and forget about 'em, or throw them in a cage - you're guilty as the next.... I'm guilty....

Now I know I'm going to catch alot of fire for this - cuz' it probrably reads like I blew my top - but I didn't...I'm cool & collected, but I just didn't want to see another venomoid war start up - it's sensless for us to waste our time and energy. Go do something nice for a neighbor, or a child....or what the heck - clean some cages

Peace

what the hell is the difference between a cute little puppy with it's ears cropped

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Done by a vet.

a happy little cow on your dinner plate

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Done in a manner which complies with all applicable animal cruelty laws surrounding euthenasia/butchering.

a dog with no (censored)

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Done by a vet.

a kitten with no claws

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Done by a vet.

and a snake with no venom glands???

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Done by some yokel in their garage with no anesthetic, no proper tools, a pretty unsterile environment and with an extremely low survival rate during and after the procedure. Long term health effects are still not entirely known and there's a possibility for gland or duct regrowth (if the proper areas were removed/cauterized in the first place) meaning that someone owns a potentially lethal (in some cases) animal and believes it to be harmless.

Now I'm about as sharp as a bag of wet mice, but I know that chances are pretty good that rednecks all over the US are cropping ears and tails in garages more than we care to think. I'm also under the impression that not all venomoid surgery is done by yokels : )

I want to make myself clear to everyone when I say I am 110% against the "butchering" of these animals - for any reason, at anytime, but I'm against anything that involves hurting any living thing...yes, even an ant.

Seamus - I am no match for you, and I can honestly say I have most likely agreed with probably 99.9% of you have written here at fauna over time.and I actually agree with you on this subject as well, but my thoughts are simple...I am sometimes angered by many things we choose to do as human beings - not just one or two, but "many" and IMHO there is a right and a wrong way to do almost everything.