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UPS and Shpping Snakes (a chance at legitimacy)

M

Mickey_TLK

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I have been going back and fourth with UPS for nearly a month trying to find suitable means for me to ship live animals via them. In the process of negotiations, I have found we may have an allie on our side inside the corperation. I recieved an email, that had communications back and fourth from my sales rep to a corperate guy named BRAD COOK (nrb1bxc). The letters in the ( ) I believe are a corperate id tag. Im not sure what his email is, but Im sure with some digging we can find it.

The reason I started this thread is this. I have this corperate guy Brad Cook on email stating to my sales rep that he has spoken many times with people up the ladder about shipping non venoumous snakes. From the comments made in his email to my rep, it sounds like he thinks its a sound business decision. He is also well aware people allready ship snakes "under the table" with ups.

I feel if enough of us directly email Mr Cook, explaining the amount of business that UPS could generate would they openly accept HARMLESS, NON VENOUMOUS, SNAKES.

We may even need to come up with a guidline for what would be acceptable to ship UPS. Maybe we need to start with asking them to openly ship harmless non venoumous snakes that are under 4'. I have a feeling the thought of a 20' Burm in a UPS truck has them nervous.

Anyone who wants to help me track this Mr Cook down, and would like to communicate with them on this option please contact me. I will email my sales rep later today, asking for Mr Cooks email addresss from her.

I can also forward the email with the comments made by Mr Cook to anyone who is interested.

Lets all work together to see if we cant show this corprate giant what kind of money they could make if they were to OPENLY accept live snake shipments. Anyone contacting Mr Cook should explain the amount of shipping, stress that its their premium services, and the realities of the snake market (i.e. we would like to openly ship BABY snakes). Again we should start with smaller snakes as it will likely be our best route.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
402-934-9906
 
I just spoke with my UPS rep in person when I was dropping off a package, and she says she will email me Mr Cooks info asap. She also said she thinks a letter writting campaign wouldnt be a bad idea at all. From the sounds of it, if we give the company enough reasons, and maybe enough assurance, we could make this happen.

However lets be realistic here also. How many people are actually going to play by the rules soo to speak. Thats the biggest problem with this industry. Say we are able to get UPS to allow us to ship snakes openly, with the only stipulation being they MUST BE BABY SNAKES. (I.E. under 4 ft and non venoumous, yada yada yada). How long do you think it would be before somebody decides, well that rule doesnt apply to me, and decides to ship a 12' retic. Thats the kind of thing that would bring everything crashing down.

I plan to try and put together as good a presentation as possible, and try and "pitch" the ups guy on allowing snake shipments. I figure if I get some pictures (i.e. photos of baby corn snakes next to a quarter, or baby boas next to a dollar bill, ect) and then add in some names and numbers showing what kind of money they could make, you never know they could just say why not.

I remeber a few years back when animal shipments were not allowed by UPS PERIOD. I cant rember who it was, but I think it was someone in OK that started the ball rolling, and got UPS to allow a few people to ship. Maybe we can do the same thing with snakes, to benifit all of us.

So again, anyone willing to step up and help out with this would be appreciated. I would love to get a few big time people on board, to help show them the money they can make. However again I will be realistic. Not many of us want to rock the boat with them, and risk them opening boxes that suprise suprise will likely allready contain snakes. Me personally I have nothing to loose by persuing this with them.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
Sounds like a great idea to me. Forward me the addy when you get it and I will write a letter to Mr. Cook explaining that while I would not be a massive customer, if they opened up and allowed shipments of harmless non-venomous snakes, I would be a new customer they would not get otherwise . There would probably be a LOT of new customers if they opened up to harmless non-venomous snakes.

Like you were saying, there will be people that will assume the rules do not apply to them. Maybe point out to them that these people already exist and ARE shipping all kinds of things that are "Not allowed" anyway...........it's human nature....there will ALWAYS be someone breaking the rules. However~ opening up and allowing harmless non-venomous snakes above board would just increase the profit margin from those who do believe the rules apply!

Here is a pic of a baby snake I took yesterday to try and sell this clutch. I took a pic of her with some change to show her size.....you can use it to demonstrate size of "Baby" cornsnakes. This one is a "Juevenile" at 4 months old.
 

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Thanks for the pic Cheryl, thats exactly the kind of thing I need (and since Im not a colubrid keeper, I dont have any to get the pics like that of).

I will forward the info once I know the address.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
You can count

me in too Mickey! If I can help, just HOLLER!!!
 
Firstly, let me say that I am more than willing to help in any way. I have been working on the same issue at the local level with a certain degree of success, but I would love to take this on to a national level campaign!

I would make one suggestion though. Let's just say that we won't ship animals above a set length (4 ft, if that's what works), instead of using the term "baby." There is no damage that could ever be done to someone by a 4 ft. breeding cornsnake, but it is not a baby. Let's be completely above board on this, and I think we'll get farther.
 
I agree a 4ft cornsnake would be fine. I think you are right a good 4 ft limit would likely do the trick.

One would hope with a bit of time and no incidents, that they may even be persuaded to ship "realistic" sized snake shipments.

I did have a person mention maybe going with a box size limit rather then a snake size limit (i.e. no snakes can be shipped that would not fit in a 12" x 15" x 12" box *just and example*). However the only problem I could see with this, is that a person who may be selling wholesale orders, surch as entire litters, or mixed lots, ect, may not be able to fit an entire shipment.

Im still waiting on a return email from my rep, and with the holiday season upon us, I dont expect anything to come about in the near future on this. So I will update everyone as I learn more.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
Box Size

I think that to would spur some people into PACKING a larger snake into a smaller box if it were only size limitations of a box to ship by.Actually i think a bteer way to approach them and i know some will complain would be to counter ship before you blast me this would assure two a few things FOR US!!!
  1. That an agreed upon size limitation would be upheld
  2. No one could ruin it for everyone if they shipped a larger then allowed snake and it was opened to find a 10'+ snake
  3. Let the UPS people know that we are not trying to put one over on them
    [/list=1]

    It would be nice if drivers could "field verify" the shipping but somehow i dont see UPS letting there employees makethat call as im sure theres many that are terrified of snakes and wouldnt even think of looking at one to see if it was " the right size " to put on there truck lol
 
I dont know that it would get to that point, but I can see what your saying.

Me personally I always take my shipments to the counter. Thats half the reason this whole ball got in motion on my end. I had to fight to get them to allow me to ship live from the counter, rather then dumping them in a truck to roam the city in the cold of winter or heat of summer.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
I understand the fears that the company may have in regard to the abuse factor if they were to allow the open shipping of smaller reptiles through their company. However, they need to understand one thing: It is already happening.

They are not going to stop those 12' burms from being shipped through UPS by keeping the restrictions they currently have in place. All they are going to do is remove themselves from the THOUSANDS of honest, above board CUSTOMERS that they could have, if they would simply remove the restrictions in a modified manner!

It's like gun control. All you end up doing is affecting the honest citizen, because criminals, by definition, do not follow the laws and turn in their guns. If UPS bans the shipment of small snakes, all they have done is guaranteed that they have run off those people honest enough not to use them (obviously there are honest people who use UPS with permission of their local UPS managers, but you see my point)!

I would be very much interested in speaking with whomever can make the actual decision on this. Everyone to whom I have spoken at UPS has been very understanding, and has been interested in seeing things change. I have just never gotten to speak with the right people.
 
Hey Mickey,

I would love to help any way I can. Please, also send me this guys e-mail address.

By the way, I had a really good time after the Tampa show with you, Howard and Bob Pott's!! What a blast!!
 
LOL me to man.

However same situation in Philly was tragic for me so always be carefull.

LMAO

I will give you a heads up when I get his email address.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
I was just thinking about this issue a bit more, and thought of a few more ideas I think MAY be helpfull in winning support for shipping snakes.

I think part of the "presentation" to Brad or anyone else who will listen at UPS should include photos of some of the larger expos. This may help them gain a bit of perspective as to the size of our hobby, and the amount of business they could gain from shipping snakes. I may also include a few of the reptile mags, again to show the reach of the hobby.

They have to know we are shipping snakes allready, if nothing else from all the snakes they catch people shipping. But on the other side, they also have to realize how much money they are gaining by shipping live animals. As such if we play to there greed we could get them to listen. To me it makes scence to loosen the rules to a realistic level, if nothing else to increase volume on their part.

I dont know about other business, but I am 100% sure that were I able to reliably ship snakes my sales would increase. I often no longer post snakes worth less then 500$ as its not worth the trouble to ship it. Say I sell a baby boa for 100 shipped assuming I can pay 30$ for ups shipping. Well lets assume UPS opens that box, and I now have to fing an alternative means to ship the snake. Now I may be forced to ship that snake via Delta for a 75$ cost, causing me to sell the boa for less then what the animal cost. Because of that fear (or reality in my case) I have just said screw it to low end snake sales on the web.

Anyways, I sent an email reminder to my sales rep asking for Brads email, so hopefully the ball will be rolling soon. Once I get his email, I will need more pics of baby snakes next to coins or dollar bills, and pics of the larger shows would help (funny I go to them all the time, but have no pics from them myself).

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
Ask and you shall recieve

Brad Cooks email

[email protected]

Now I think we need to really stiffen the game plan before we start dumping emails in this guys lap. If anyone hasnt noticed I have poor grammar, punctuation, and spelling habbits (always have always will...lol). So I may not be the best person to type out the letter if we go with a form letter approach. However a form letter may not be as effective as a bunch of unique responces showing our concerns. So let me know what you guys think and over the next few weeks or months I will work on this on my end also.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
I'm not sure which would be better--a bunch of letters, or one well worded one that we all agree on.
Whichever, you can count me in to help.
Dana
 
I agree with Dana. Instead of hounding him with hundreds of emails, which would probably pi$$ him off and he would start deleting messages instead of reading them. I like the idea of 1 thought out letter stating all the facts and benefits to UPS. Show them how we would ship snakes properly, safely and responsibly (at least most of us). We could somehow have everyone sign their name to it or something.

Count me in and let me know if I can help out in any way.
 
agreed

I think maybe all of us here that feel that we could HONESTLY keep a high order of properly labled , packaged shipments w/out violating or threating the offer at hand with possibly being able to ship with them have someone draft a professional letter to him. Then with that all that think they can ship to whatever across the board rules we as shippers could agree on to keep us all on good faith with them and no reason forthem to NOT let us ship provide email addresses,names and contatc info that can be attached to the form letter to him. i think that if we can show him the potential volume of people willing to do it "right" it may have impact and then have him the chance to contact us randomly or at hiswill to ask us such questions on how we would ship and how that we would not endanger or threaten there drivers etc with our buisness
just my.02
 
If it is not too presumptious of me, I'll volunteer to write the first draft of the letter. Then any additions, subtractions, or rewordings we all deem acceptable could be edited into the final product. Is that all right with everyone?
 
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