View Full Version : southern hognose pic needed

bud mierkey
01-24-2004, 04:23 PM
anyone have a pic of a southern honose?
several are for sale but no pics.
also what is the difference between a eastern and a southern?

01-25-2004, 11:47 AM
Easterns NEED toads, they will die early in life w/o them.

im not sure about southerns, not too familiar with them, they do look alittle like easterns though

Seamus Haley
01-25-2004, 01:23 PM
... it's a different species...

Two seperate populations which do not form a naturally interbreeding group.

Heterodon platirhinos is not Heterodon simus, the superficial similarities in appearance are pretty meaningless, especially since southerns are actually a bit more like the western complex than easterns if you look at something other than color. Like say... skull structure and dentation.

Remember how it had to be pointed out to you, Bud, that just because two animals had a similar common name, it didn't mean they were the same animal? The same goes for minor similarities in external appearance.

As to the differences, outside of BEING A DIFFERENT SPECIES, the Easterns are the largest of the heterodon species, the southerns are the smallest, the easterns demand toads and can get very unhealthy if fed rodents, the southerns are adapted to a diet which is a bit more varied and will do fine on appropriately sized mice if they'll take them, southerns are harder to find in captivity than easterns and suffer a bit more from overcollection and illegal collection in certain parts of their range, the colors really are completely different, as are the patterns, easterns are better at absorbing and "recycling" bufotoxins, making the toxins in their saliva a bit more dependant on what and when they last ate than other hognoses... Do you want scale counts?

The big similarity here though, that I doubt you'll be able to grasp is... NEITHER OF THEM ARE VENOMOUS.

bud mierkey
01-25-2004, 02:50 PM
SEAMUS wrote

"Remember how it had to be pointed out to you, Bud, that just because two animals had a similar common name, it didn't mean they were the same animal? The same goes for minor similarities in external appearance."

You pointed out nothing you wasted your key strokes.
I knew exactly what I meant.
you seamus not to smartus or to smart for normal comprehension of us lower life forms.
keep it up I almost respected your information.


01-25-2004, 02:55 PM
Easterns will not die an early death from eating mice only, please stop spreading such rumors. Thanks.

Seamus Haley
01-25-2004, 03:36 PM
Easterns are not built to eat rodents. They have evolved to consume ectotherms, which are far different nutritionally than mammals.

Much like say... Savs. They are adapted to a certain nutritional intake, by drastically altering that intake, health problems will result. Feed an eastern hognose nothing but rodents and I'd be very surprised if it lived more than five or six years.

01-25-2004, 03:41 PM
Sorry but there is no way I can believe that, I have seen a few eaterns over that with eating nothing but mice and where could I find this info that you claim is legit be found? I would also love to see reports done saying otherwise as for so far I have not seen any legit papers exept people claiming things also any can anybody explain the how they are different intead of justEasterns are not built to eat rodents I would like to see concrete evidence, Thanks.

Seamus Haley
01-26-2004, 11:07 AM
Unfortunately I can't, as much as I would like to evidence my position on this matter. I've moved around quite a bit in the last two-three years, most of my books and papers were left in Massachusetts, which is a long drive from Colorado in order to make a point.

The best I can supply you with is a few logical steps that you may or may not agree with, in order to arrive at the conclusion that a diet of nothing but mice isn't the healthiest thing for an eastern hog.

Animals adapt to their environments in every manner, as a species, rather than as individuals, generations of natural selection causing a general adaptation towards use of avaliable resources, be this food, shelter, protection from predators or what the opposite gender will accept when it comes to passing genes along.

Eastern hognose have adapted to an environment where there are many other species that are, when looked at in certain generalities, very similar. There would be a great deal of competition for avaliable prey species between assorted species of snakes throughout the south eastern portions of the united states if individual species did not specialize.

Specialization is both positive and negative for a given species. In this instance, eastern hogs have evolved to become very very very very very good at prey collection, provided that the prey is amphibious and, even more specifically, toads. This means that they'll out-compete just about any other species when it comes to toad eating, but will not do well if their usual prey source is removed. Just another example of the ongoing battle between specialization and generalization on an evolutionary scale.

Some of the specific adaptations towards their intended diet are quite advanced. A general resistance to bufo toxins is present in a lot of snakes from the area... Eastern hogs have developed not only the ability, but the required physiological apparatus needed to not just resist, but collect and reuse those toxins. Their digestive system is amazingly efficient when it comes to breaking down and metabolizing toad tissue and many of the toxins they produce seem quite specific in their function. I'm not suggesting that you actually do this but... if you were to feed a hognose a mouse, then pull it out of it's mouth halfway down, it would be a bit moist. If you were to do the same with the toad, you'd find that the skin had already started dissolving, being digested by the enzymes present in the hognoses saliva.

Species which have adapted to a specific diet have done so to a degree which generally precludes them from reccognizing other food sources, except in an opportunistic manner. Their digestive systems evolve right along with those prey reccogniziton instincts to consume a certain type of food. A drastic example being say... Horned Lizards (I miss calling them horny toads) and ants. A more common example being savannah monitors fed nothing but dogfood and rodents, which get obese or green iguanas fed insects, which causes quite a few problems. Eastern hogs seem to fall someplace between the horny toads and the monitors... they're not entirely dependant on the chemical composition of their usual prey item, but they are adjusted to digest a certain nutritional balance. Toads and rodents are pretty different nutritionally, when it comes to caloric content, fat content, the amount of calcium present, the amount of indigestable tissue present... Long term, too much of a food that a species is not adapted to consume can be pretty damaging.

I know I've read studies which analyzed the digestive capabilities, geared mostly towards the accelerated digestion of amphibians, especially toads and I've seen at least a few veterinary reports which cite general, long term malnutrition as being the cause of death in specimens that were fed exclusively rodents. I also have no idea who wrote them, when they were written or, to be honest, if they're still sitting in the piles, shelves, boxes and furniture covering stacks I left in Boston.

Basically just a situation, like so many others, where the diet in the wild should be identified and something as similar as possible nutritionally should be given in captivity. If you agree with the logic presented above, good deal. If you don't, to be honest it's really no skin off my nose. I could probably find a few ebsites which support my statements but I'm distrustful of most websites and don't easily regard many of them as being a valid source of information, especially not when someone educated is requesting evidence. Too many people with too few qualifications writing most of 'em.

Seamus Haley
01-26-2004, 11:09 AM
Oh yeah... And Bud, if you just want pictures to see pictures...

http://www.google.com then click the tab marked "Images" do a few keyword searches. Some of the results won't be worthwhile but most animal species will turn up a good number of photos, so sifting through will probably net you a good idea of what the adults look like.

01-26-2004, 11:37 AM
Thanks for the polite reply, And I have seen an western and eastern together there is not much difference between them as for looks but there is a difference and one thing I just don't see eye to eye on is that southerns have not had this problem and come from the same range, I also know someone and have heard stories but once again they are just that 2nd hand info of Easterns living with no problem on mice, But yes I do agree that there is more is a problem, I have once again heard of Easterns not living and eating nothing but a mice diet, to me this sounds like a lack of nutrition on the prey items part as the toads eats insect among other thing and have a well balanced diet but the mice that were fed were probably kept on a dog food diet which will lead to not enough nutrition and that means not enough nutrition for the predator in the long run so I believe that Easterns need a either well balanced diet high in protein or an additive to help maintain a healthy prey item such as feeding better foods to the prey. Also has anyone ever done a study to feed nothing but mice to an eastern and then do a necropsy later on to see if there is in-fact a fatty liver problem?

01-26-2004, 01:22 PM
Thiink of it this way, would you eat SPAM for the rest of your life? i dont think so, its not verygood for, besides the taste, and is high in fat and such. humans can eat meat, and vegetables, and we should to have a well balanced diet.

hognoses need these ectotherms for a well balanced diet, mice are like spma for hoggies, the fill the void, and have some nutrition, but in the longrun are dangerous to their health

bud mierkey
01-26-2004, 05:30 PM
I figured the guys selling them on this site would provide a pic but guess they dont want to sell them too bad.
but the search tuned up a couple nice pics.

05-24-2004, 01:53 PM
Crazycorn you've said this in numerous posts and this isnt true so shutup, it can happen, just because one hognose lived because it doesnt mean it will measure out with the rest of the hognoses that have died because of it.

06-19-2004, 12:39 AM
easterns need Toads??? haha, BS. Southerns Are the ones who NEED toads and frogs, you have your opinions backwards. I own 2 Southern hognoses and I have to breed my own frogs. I cant buy them elsewhere, too hard. So dont tell me easterns need toads, i fed my eastern Hognose white footed mice its whole life, then i sold it for $400. How do you like that? Here's a pic of my SOUTHERN (who NEEDS toads)lol:D

01-01-2005, 11:30 PM
I'd like to see a better pic of that southern. Sure looks like an eastern to me.

01-01-2005, 11:36 PM
female adult simus. Better (months) late than never???