Fauna Classifieds  insite

This is something i never thought i would be posting  but it seems  (more so now)  that  since the fiasco  with the whole snake pit  ordeal  that    reptile business has  dropped substantially    , i mean  due  to all this  my response for ads   has dropped to nearly zero  .... And im not used to that  
usually im answering  least 10 emails a week ... im affraid that this situation  that  came about has left some seriously bad tastes  in peoples mouths  ( which i can fully  understand to a point  )  about doing online business .. its hard to be trusting when u see  a highly known person    be questioned  as far as integrity    is concerned  .. myself have never  had a bad dealing  ( knock on wood  )  as i try to maintian highest customer stisfaction    .... but these things do happen  ..please people  i know trust is a big issue   and a sensative issue at this time  but  try to remain open minded   to the  facts  that everyone  is not   out to get you  ...
lets please bring some peace  and mind  back to the herping industry  ... cause   situations  such as these  only hurt the  people  that  try to bring people  and animals together  .. I myself  and a small   , slightly  well known business  (  but mostly  my hobby)      and i know  these kinds of  problems hurt us the worst   .... I'm  just asking  for people  not to close their minds  on everyone   be weary of the ones that are needed  but  dont put us  all on the list  ...Its  a SAD  day when  stuff like this  has happened  i hope the  day gets brighter  and we can go back to being  the happy  herping community  that i have known  and come to love about this board ..........
just a few thoughts  i  had ...

shawn skillings
TheVipersHouseReptiles&Exotics

Shawn,

I don't know if you were doing business online last year but it is not uncommon for there to be off seasons. As the weather improves people tend to unplug more and get out. I monitor traffic for about 75 of our clients sites (and have been for about 3 years) and we see this decrease in activity across the board this time of year. Graduations happen, wedding season is here, etc that all takes money away from luxury items which for those other normal people  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  reptiles are a luxury item.

Not to take away from what you posted but there may be other factors at work.

Shawn,

I too have noticed a alight decrease in the number of customers and e-mails lately , but I know it is just because of the season.  It happens every year about this time.  It will slow for about a month or so, and then go through the roof once again.  Don't worry I don't believe it has anything to do with the discussions on the BOI.

Personally, I think that sales will get worse before they get better. Shipping has become a nightmare, whether its by plane or mail. The introducton of combating terrorism has made me think twice about shipping. Everything seems to be examined one way or another. You can forget trying to get past security at an airline with carry on luggage that contains some harmless reptiles. Those days are gone. The risk of confiscation is to costly. So what you are left with a attending more local shows or physically meeting someone to conduct business. People will and probably purchase more locally. It will be interesting to see what happens this year at Daytona where some vendors would carry their inventory on their napsack, and the purchaser is now faced with the problem of how to bypass all these security headaches to get his item home. It may also turn out to be a buyers market since alot of prices have fallen off sharply (at least in my end of the business...geckos) but only time will tell. I hate being a pessimist, but eventually alot of people are going to quit this business as their products become less attractive and they realize that as wonderful as the internet is , its also a harbor for attracting the wrong kind of people. JERRY TRESSER

well Daniel
i did put  what u said  into consideration   when i was writting  but you must admitt   how many emails were u getting before  the fiaso started  ?
i understand what u are saying dont get me wrong    but  i still have to think  when a big namer gets  put on the spot  like whats going on   and his morality  has been questioned    that tends  to harbor more suspisions  about the so called HONEST DEALER    it stirs up more and more unhappy thoughts  about internet  dealings   .. i TRULY hope your reason is the reason     ,  cause i would hate to think   my 2Cents  was actually the case  because if it  were so  then we are all gonna suffer  alot more in the time to come
i dont argue 1 bit from the replies    that are posted so far   but in my end  i saw  the drop  from good to lacked  when the  &*!#  hit the fan  in a certain post   ....  my mailbox got alot emptier    than normal  HOPE IM WRONG  !!!!!!!  
shawn

Shawn,

I am positive that there was some fallout. Look at your market and see who your customers are (or were before the thread started). If they are dealers/brokers/breeders/shops/ other bigger name collectors you may have hit on it (these are the people that frequent this site).

In the article in Reptiles Magazine this month the owner of Sandfire Ranch was stating he is seeing an increase of professionalism in the industry. That is a very good thing as I think the general public's perception of the reptile industry is that they are a bunch of "reptile nerds". You are 100% correct in that when a larger name in the business comes underfire it puts the industry a step back instead of improving the public image. I just know from looking at online traffic across a number of industries this is a normal slow time of year. That was why I asked if you had records of last years leads/sales. As Rob (see I spelled it right this time <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> ) said it is probably just normal seasonal ebb and flow.

Personally, I think that the Snake Pit thread has NOTHING to do with how online business has been lately.  Jerry makes some good points, it is not as easy to ship as it was through most services(although UPS seems quite accomodating for my geckos), and forget trying to get your prize show buys through the airport anymore.  And yes, it will probably get worse before it gets better.  
I personally think there are more factors at work than just the season.  Historically for ME, May, June, and July have been my best months doing business online.  This year, I feel like I almost have to give away animals that I could have easily sold less than a year ago.  But all year long it seems there has been a lull in the herp market(at least for geckos, and from what I see on ks and here, snakes as well)and for once, the supply seems to be far out weighing the demand in many species(this is the first year I have ever seen ETB's under $300 retail/online other than wholesale price sheets, and they aren't selling at all like they should).  I have seen many of the same animals for sale on ks right now that have been on there for months.  And not just super high dollar stuff either.  Alot of the cheaper stuff is hanging around alot longer as well.  
But oh well.  We will all just have to roll with the punches.  The herp market will survive and we will all be able to start making money again doing what we love, but we just need to be patient and wait out the drought.  The rains WILL come again <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Wow!

What a topic, one that people never really ponder socially.
Which is a shame.

I dont know what to add here, Jerry Tresers post is genuis in my opinion and Rob from R.K.Reptiles post is great also. Here's my two cents, just my opinion, for what thats worth,I dont know.

  With the summer months comeing and 911 wake up call to how life can change dramatically, people ARE more interested in social events , going places, expereinceng life, seeing relatives than buying THINGS. This includes reptiles I'm afraid.
I think as more people breed and broker reptiles , it becomes a buyers market. There are a finite number of customers and a plethra of vendors to choose from, which is great for the public, but can be hard on breeders.

 Shipping?  Shipping is a bit of a nightmare, especially Legal shipping via airlines. For most unless you are a known shipper with an account, house inspection, and business license, you cant ship with them. period. Others will accept you shipping but want a vet certificate affixed to the out side of the box which states that the animal has been examined an is healthy. And require shipping parameters that are next to ridiculous(Bag, wooden box, in a bag, in another box)
I think that shipping is really slowing down the trade, I am sure some will come on here with tales of great shipping experiences without a glitch, and I am glad for them, but thathasnt been my expereinces, at least with air cargo.

  Lastly, I think that consumer confidence is eroded when big name breeders are rightfully accused of fraud or cheating or lieing. I try VERY hard to maintain good customer relations and so far have had an excellent record in doing so. But it only takes a few guys that take peoples money or cheat them to make folks gun shy of the masses of people that are working SO HARD to bring them captive bred herps at fair market prices. Its a shame really, the baby thrown out with the bathwater. I think that we all suffer when new customers get a bad tastes in their mouths because of an unscroupulous breeder or broker.

E mails? I get tons of them.some asking me questions about snakes, others asking me if they should buy from so -and- so
(name a breeder or broker) I am flattered that they would trust ME enough to ask me who is an honest person to deal with. 911 hasnt slowed down the emails, for sure, but it has decreased the number of them that are intending to purchase my snakes NOW versus in , say maybe 6 or 8 months.

 I think people wil get out of the hobby, new people will come, I have no idea how it will turn out. The BIRD  HOBBY was very much like this many years ago, I kept and bred a wide variety of birds then, the only reason i left that was because of my interest in reptiles and my kids allergy to bird dander.

My suggestion: Keep what you like and never, ever expect to make one red cent on it. And dont watch what other people buy, being influenced by others is a major pitfall, and one I have fallen into time and time again. When will i ever learn?

                   *Cheers, its Friday!*

                          Fred Albury
                          (Aztec Reptiles)

  Specializing in Drymarchon,Pituophis, and Rare Boas

Here's another twist. In talking with clients (for my other business that is not herp related) I notice a difference between east coast and west coast at this time. Two clients exactly same industries but on opposite coasts and their businesses are seeing opposite numbers in leads/sales. Just curious how that plays into the herp industry as well. Experiences anyone?

Mr. Albury, thanks for the kind words about my posting. One other point to mention. Our parent company is the Drosophila Co , we are fruitfly suppliers and have been in business for 15 years. Aside from our mainstay customers  whom have been with us for years, new people are becoming more difficult to comeby. Its not a reflection of bad business but a greater demand for local dealings. Live food dealers have had their difficulties as well. With the new irradiation machines through the post office and some of their prohibitions on live animals have also brought alot of headaches to this industry. The cricket business for example has more people attempting to sell than buy ! You would think that after all these years that these companies (ourselves included) who provide quality service would be enough to oversaturate the market. But people are attempting to corrupt every facet of this industry. Without mentioning names I went to a show where almost 15 cricket vendors were attempting to sell. I dont have a problem with fee enterprise, but I knew none of these food people, who are looking to capitalize on local markets. I think as restrictions increase the role of the local herp gatherings will increase as people are sick and tired of getting ripped off through the net, dealing with unknown entities, and loosing monies on a daily basis as this Board of Inquiry has shown. Under conditions that choke the life of an industry, only the strong will eventually survive, and hopefully the bad dooers will fall by the wayside. But time will tell. I think the upcoming Daytona show may enlighten some of my fears. But I think people in general if they are not local are going to be more concerned about how to get what they bought home, and that can mean a considerable loss of revenue. No one benefits, and in the end it becomes a buyers market. Prices get lowered and people get desperate. That is the fermentation of deepening problems in the horizion. JERRY TRESSER

Going back to the original post in this thread, it is my opinion that the thread concerning Neil Gubitz and Dave Lawson had nothing to do with anyone's drop off in business at this time.  The entire thread had nothing at all to do with the quality of animals or service that either of those two gentlemen provided to their customers.  The issue was completely unrelated to that sort of concern, and I would be hard pressed to try to twist the logic around to fit that assumption.  It would also be a pretty far stretch of the imagination to presume that it affected an entire industry nationwide within a period of a couple of weeks.  I would like to think the BOI is well read, but certainly it is not THAT well read!

Personally, this has always been a slow period for me, saleswise.  Last year it was my own fault because I was sold out by March.  In previous years, my stock was so low, that the selection was rather poor and I just naturally write this off as a slow period of time and hope the money holds out OK until the new babies show up in mid July.  Always been that way, and probably always will, for me at least.

Since the 9/11 attack, I have to admit that I have been surprised at how brisk business has been for me.  Surprisingly so.  We did the Mid-Atlantic show the weekend after the attack and were on pins and needles driving up to the show and during setup, not knowing what Saturday would bring in attendance.  But the show exceeded everyone's expectations, and quite frankly, I have to say that this entire season has been better than average.

So yeah, maybe we have hit a slump, but I don't see anything related to 9/11, the BOI, or anything we as a group have done to bring it on ourselves.  This is the beginning of vacation season for many people and quite frankly, a lot of people just don't want to be tied down with any more animals at the moment when they will be out of town for a few weeks.  I have personally had people tell me that.  The pet shop trade in general just takes a nose dive this time of year, just for this very reason, and they are well aware of this fact of life.

Last week was the first week since last hatching season that I didn't have shipments going out.  And I was thankfull for the break! Certainly it was no reason to start worrying about the wolves at the door, so I just take it all in stride and don't worry about it.  It's all just part of this goofy business we are in.

Well folks....here's my take on this subject....It's simple business at work here....supply and demand....that's it! My thread has nothing at all to do with the downswing, or total lack, of selling that some of you are having right now....like Geckos, for instance....a breeder who breeds Geckos is stuck with Geckos, he's at the buyer's mercy....too many Geckos, not enough people that want them, and remember, for every pair of Geckos that are sold....they will be the start of another breeding colony, and on, and on, and on....there are millions of Geckos around right now, and people want something new and different....
My store business has not slowed down one iota!! It's a lot easier when you own a store....if something isn't selling, you get something else that is selling....it's real easy IF you're "in the loop" and stay on top of things (like any good businessman should)....that's why (IMO), breeders that breed only one type of animal, are basically locking themselves in to the market in a do or die situation....sometimes it isn't pretty when the public wants to move on to something new....you've got to go with the flow if you want to succeed....

BTW....as a side-note....Josie and I have "kissed and made up"....we had a very nice talk on the phone this afternoon, and after we both closed down at 7, I swung by her store to "get re-acquainted"....it was great! Very nice store, too.... I was impressed!! Josie...thanks, kiddo...you really made my day! ....Neil

well ok  rich   u said this
Going back to the original post in this thread, it is my opinion that the thread concerning Neil Gubitz and Dave Lawson had nothing to do with anyone's drop off in business at this time.  The entire thread had nothing at all to do with the quality of animals or service that either of those two gentlemen provided to their customers.

im am not directly pointing fingers if my post was read correctly     you would have seen that
i was stating that the incodent   cuase more doubts  to people  dealing  on internet  cause of like Neil   is well known   but when u have a person like neil  who has had no problems in the past    so serious as the issues going on  now  to all of a sudden   get his character and his  ethics questioned  with such  harsh results     would no doubtedly  add doubt to anyones mind of wether or not internet  was the place to shop
not 1 time did i say  Neils or Daves  customer service  or animals had anything to do with what i posted   i said     IT WAS THE SITUATION OF THE WHOLE FIASCO     that  might have caused such a  drop in business  i know for a fact  if i was coming on for the first or 2nd time  and i read all that chit  in that post i would seriously  have my doubts about dealing  on internet   i mean come on   just the thought of a person   as well known as neil   to be   havin this happen  and all the doubts in the air  about guilt or innocense      does get the mind  wondering HOW SAFE IS INTERNET NOW !!!!  ( just want to make clear im in the neutral on the whole thing )   but dam    like i said i never attacked Neil or Dave  1 time  in my post   i think you  actually missed the point i was making when i posted it ........ CAUSE IN FACT TO SEE A MAN IN NEIL STATUS  OF WELL KNOWN    NEVER A PROB (EXCEPT FOR SOME THAT PERSONALLY ATTACKED HIM)   HES NEVER REALLY HAD A BAD THING SAID ABOUT HIM UNTIL NOW  ...WELL IN MY MIND I SAY DAM (NOT TAKING SIDES )  IF WHAT THEY SAY COULD BE TRUE   AND IF NEIL SOME ONE OF HIS STAUTE HERE COULD DO THAT HOW MANY OTHERS  COULD TO .... do you see where my original post  is going now
not that fact neil has done bad or sold bad stuff  nor dave  but the fact that the idea is infact out there   would be the same thing i said if that thread was about bob clark   i mean come one  i  deal here alot to  and it even scares me to a point  to do internet .... the poitnof my post was the thoughts and mindwandering issues   NOT ATTACKING DAVE OR NEIL  ...........

Shawn,

Yes, I believe I did understand your message.  I just disagree with your conclusions.

There is no way to prove it, but my opinion is that if that thread never took place, you would not have any more orders being placed for your merchandise than you do today.

I, more than anyone else here would probably like to think that this site has a tremendous all powerful influence in the herp industry.  But I don't.  Not by a long shot.  Heck, at the next herp show you go to, ask everyone you can if they have heard of the BOI.  Probably less than 10 percent will have even heard of it, much less read anything on it.  At the last three shows I have been to (March, April & May), probably only a DOZEN or so people even mentioned it to me!  And I literally had thousands of people walk by my tables.

Darn!  Maybe I should advertise!  Duh!!

So as I said, I SERIOUSLY doubt the cause and effect you are stating.  And more to the point, but with no disrespect to either of them,  although both Neil Gubitz and Dave Lawson are frequent contributors and popular visitors to this site, neither one is a household name or a really major player in the herp industry.  So it's not like any wrong doing, real or contrived, by either of them would shake the herp world's foundations to its very core.

ok richs but see thats just it   i dont 75-80% of my dealings on fauna  
i never said the whole industry   yes it will have an effect on a %    but   neil or dave may not be the biggest here  but they are known    and thay have  by choice or not by choice alot  of weight    so it comes to this  and if you read my topic title     INSITE  ON FAUNA !!! note i didnt say industry   i said fauna .....

when u cant trust the namers ,   how can u trust the smaller guys <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>??

Rich,

I think what Shawn is saying is that when he does 80% of his sales off Fauna. The thread has hurt him in sales. Which could be true to a point.

Then again as everone has said business slows down this time of year. So people aren't bring in the cash to spend on more reptiles. That too can hurt sales.

The beging of summer is always slow we all know that and the begining of the school year sales go up.


Back to what I believe Shawn was trying to point out is the when someone who is know so well on the BIO. Then thier character is challenged. It will hurt the person who only sells on Fauna.


Just me thoughts. Frank