Calcium/Vitamin Supplements: What's everyone use?

After reading and posting in the thread about supplementing to enhance color, I thought it would be interesting to see what supplements everyone likes using, how often, what they dislike about others, pros/cons etc.

I use Rep Cal with D3 for calcium. I keep a dish of this in each enclosure. I also dust the hatchling's food at every feeding with this.

When I use vitamin supplements, Herpivite and Vionate are the ones I use. I do strongly believe that if you are properly gut loading your feeder bugs, vitamin supplementation is not really necessary, however I do dust with herpivite once or twice a month. I also offer a dish of Vionate overnight maybe twice a month as well.

I did switch to Miner-All one year, and was not happy with it at all. That year I had problems with some of my egg laying females, and I had a higher percentage of babies hatch with problems associated with vitamin overdoses. I switched back to Rep Cal the next year.

I use only rep-cal which is provided at all times. I also gut load my crickets, superworms, and mealworms with veggies. I think I may add T-rex leo dust to their diet though, but just a little, like twice a month. I've been debating it for quite some time, and I think I may go for it, I mean, why not?

I do the same as Justyn and gutload the feeders, and leave rep-cal out all the time. I've also been thinking about the T-Rex leo dust/Sandfire Super Food supplement. I'm going to try it, and JUST use it for a while--still gutloading as usual though--and see what kind of response I get.

I use Vionate only. It does not contain any carotene, but has both calcium and D3. I do not gutload my mealworms (which is the only thing I feed my geckos) but I put a bowl of mealworms mixed with vionate in all the geckos enclosures and I think the mealies eat some of the vionate while they are in there and goutload themselves. I add an extra bowl of vionate only in the breeders boxes and I have seen females lick it many times. I had great result with this system, babies grow very fast and many times I have females gaining weight while breeding. To complete the mix I add a small pinch of sand in the bowl, I believe a really small quantity of sand help the leos digest their food better and clean up their intestine. I never had 1 case of impaction from this and it is working great for me.
Alberto
PS: as added bonus, vionate in much cheaper then rerti cal and repti vitamine.

I use Rep Cal calium without vit. D3 daily by dusting crickets and I also have it in small caps in the cages. Every sunday I dust the crickets with Rep Cal with vit. D3, herptivite, and Mineral O. My system has worked well I raised my first four leos to over 50 grams in 4-5 months. I kinda got scared about mineral after reading Kelli experience but it is only being used once a week and very lightly. No breedings yet its just what I decided to go with.
Xavier

Hmm...

I use Reptivite and dust all food items every feeding (thinking of switching to T-rex leopard gecko dust since it seems simpler with less unnecessary stuff in it). I feed my mealworms and supers a mix of oats (rolled and bran), wheat bran, powdered milk, carrots, apples, potatoes, yams, sunflower seeds and whatever is in the T-rex cricket gutload (has a lot of stuff, bee pollen, spirulina, calcium, protein, fat, fibre, etc etc).

Now my question is, should I NOT dust every feeding? How much is too much in terms of vitamins for leos? What are the signs of vitamin overdose?

-Dave

isn't vionate for endothermic animals?

I thought vionate was for warm blooded, not ectotherms. I use miner-all (indoor formula) for my leopards. I use repti-vite for some of my other lizards (iguana). Benn thinking about going rep-vite for all though!

Ro Hill

Alberto isn't carotene just Vitamin A? Vionae has it , just looking into more info after finding it odd, someone saw a very nice gecko and asked if vionate was being used.
Xavier

Alberto isn't carotene just Vitamin A? Vionae has it , just looking into more info after finding it odd, someone saw a very nice gecko and asked if vionate was being used.
Xavier

Dear Xavier,
I do not know if Vitamin A is carotene, I do not think so though. I want you to know that a lot of people in this business make assumptions instead of proving with experience and fact what they say. Some people make a rumor about something and other people believe. Here is a PIC of Fat Momma 2 years ago when I was feeding her crickets and wax worms. In the next thread is Fat Momma now, after eating mealworms mixed with Vionate for almost 2 years. Now, if Vionate would make orange color look better should she be a much better looking by now? No, she is not. I would recommend people to try to prove what they say before they said.
Regards Alberto

Fat momma now.

Since people are not sure. Here's what it is:

carotene

n 1: an orange isomer of an unsaturated hydrocarbon found in many plants; is converted into vitamin A in the liver [syn: provitamin A, carotin] 2: yellow or orange-red fat-soluble pigments in plants


Carotene isn't Vit. A, its a Vit. A precursor.

Thanks Alberto,
I hope I didn't upset you in any way I was very surprised when I read this morning the info I found. I'm not saying anything more for now and as always trust you 100%. I would go to you for another gecko before anyone else. I mean that when I say it cause you have shown ME that you produce some of the best albinos and super hypos out there today. Any have always provided me the info I ask be thru here or e-mail ect, caesar doing great and all the babys I be producing this year will be from him. Hopefully all 13 eggs I have right now will hatch.
Thanks
Xavier

Vionate

Here are the ingredients contained in 1 kg of Vionate:

Vitamin A:...220,000 I.U.
Vitamin D3:...22,000 I.U.
Vitamin D3:...22,000 I.U.
Thiamine B1:...36.9 mg
Riboflavin B2:..79.2 mg
Vitamin B6:...9.98 mg
Vitamin B12:..0.15 mg
Calcium Pantothenate:..110.0 mg
Niacin:...275.0 mg
Folic Acid:...2.2 mg
Choline Chloride:...5.72 mg
Ascorbic Acid:...4,494.8 mg
Vitamin E:..119.9 I.U.
Calcium (Ca):...(MIN)9.5% 94,802.4 mg
Calcium (Ca):...(MAX)11.4% 113762 mg
Phosphorous:.. 4.79% 47,828 mg
Salt:.. (MIN).5% 4,994 mg
Salt:.. (MAX)1.5% 14,982 mg
Iodine:..0.0022% 22 mg
Iron:..0.055% 550 mg
Cobalt:..0.00055% 5.5 mg
Copper:..0.0055% 55 mg
Magnesium:..0.0424% 423.06 mg
Manganese:..0.0076% 75.68 mg

As you can see there is no beta caretene in it. What it does contain is a high amount of Vitamin A. That is why I would not recomment giving it to your geckos on a daily basis. Now, as I understand it, beta ceretene is transformed into Vitamin A inside the body "as the body requires it". If Vionate were high in Beta caretene it wouldn't bother me as much but as you can see there is no beta ceretene in it.

Now, Vitamin A is a "fat soluble" vitamin, which means it is stored for a long time in the body. This is why you may not notice for quite awhile, years even, that anything is wrong.

I want you to know that a lot of people in this business make assumptions instead of proving with experience and fact what they say. Some people make a rumor about something and other people believe.

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Alberto, I want you to know that none of the above is a rumor, it is all fact with a tad of my opinion thrown in. I have done my research on this subject, trust me. My husband works for a zoo, they have tons of scientific papers on animal diet/supplementation. I have checked into this. Don't you think if I felt Vionate was safe for the longterm health of my animals I would use it? I mean, the stuff's dirt cheap! Of course I would, I would use it and recommend it to others. I just feel that too much Vitamin A will definitely cause major problems and/or death to a leopard gecko eventually. It may be 3 or 4 years down the road, maybe more, but still it's not a risk I am willing to take. Now I do think it would be ok to offer Vionate a couple times a month or even one time a week, as a Vitamin supplement.

As far as Vionate making leopard geckos look brighter and oranger, all I can speak of there is my own experience which was that it did, in my case. I remember looking in on them a day or so after using Vionate for the first time and I was like, "wow!", they all looked like they were glowing almost! Now that is just my experience with the product. I don't think I was making a rumour about it or anything like that, I was just stating my honest experiences.

In closing I would like to say that we are not always going to agree on what is best for our geckos. That's ok! I can have my way of doing things and others can do things differently, and I would hope we can debate these sorts of topics frankly, honestly, and with some dignity here in the forum. But when the topic comes up for discussion, I am certainly going to respond and give my opinions about said topic. Not to make someone look bad, not to hurt anyones business, not to make myself look like I am the be-all end-all when it comes to leos. Just because I want to share my information with people to try and help them. That's all!

Kelli
Your opinions and experiences in leos are always welcome especially if done in an appropriate way and matter, which you always do. I did not do any study on this matter, I have to be honest. I shown from the PICS, and I could do tons of other examples, no color change in my leos and no customer of mine complained of having the gecko lose the color because of his/hers different diet. I tried many thinks in the past 10 years that I devoted in leos and when I visited Ron Tremper facility 2 year ago I decide to change the diet of my gecko in to the same that Ron was giving to his geckos. I had no worry, and I still have none about the health of my geckos because I have seen hundreds and hundreds of geckos, way more then 2 years old, doing just fine with that. I think, that if there is a chance that the gecko will get anything other then good from vionate it would have shown in Ron's older geckos already. I did not find anything bad about it, as of now, I only gained in time working with my leos, I can have more now because I have to spend less time feeding .
Alberto

Oh. I forgot the most important think, the vionate I offer to my geckos is in the mealies bowl and most of it is consumed by them before the geckos get to eat it. I do not know if this makes a difference but it sounded like a good point to add.
Alberto

A&M Gecko said:

Kelli
Your opinions and experiences in leos are always welcome especially if done in an appropriate way and matter, which you always do. I did not do any study on this matter, I have to be honest. I shown from the PICS, and I could do tons of other examples, no color change in my leos and no customer of mine complained of having the gecko lose the color because of his/hers different diet. I tried many thinks in the past 10 years that I devoted in leos and when I visited Ron Tremper facility 2 year ago I decide to change the diet of my gecko in to the same that Ron was giving to his geckos. I had no worry, and I still have none about the health of my geckos because I have seen hundreds and hundreds of geckos, way more then 2 years old, doing just fine with that. I think, that if there is a chance that the gecko will get anything other then good from vionate it would have shown in Ron's older geckos already. I did not find anything bad about it, as of now, I only gained in time working with my leos, I can have more now because I have to spend less time feeding .
Alberto

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Alberto, ron trempor uses vionate. How long has he been using it and other as well use it? I wonder if anyone has seen overdoes of vitamin a from it?
Thanks
\Xavier

I do not know who uses it. I know Ron does and as I said, I have seen his geckos doing very well. Ron is being working with reptiles for about 30 years and I consider him one of the most knowledgeable person out there (for sure on leos). A lot of people consider him ruthless and just a money maker, we all free to think what we want about others, but I have seen him with his geckos and after 30 years he still calls me all exited when something new comes up. I think that is rare after so long and I am sure he would not do anything that would be bad for his "babies" and so am I.
Alberto
PS: I hope you guys can forgive my poor English, I got my high school diploma in Italy and I never studied it. I learned what I know by myself.

Alberto-

I of course respect your opinions as well and I always welcome healthy and intelligent debates and discussions on our geckos. As far as color, I think that when you have beautiful geckos (as you do) Vionate or no Vionate isn't going to make much of a difference, genetics is the key to nice colors and patterns, not supplements! Just FYI, I have noticed similar results a day or two after offering herpivite as well. My main concern is the high Vitamin A content, but again, it's just my thoughts on the matter based on what I have read, not personal experience.

I'm glad we can discuss these issues here on fauna, and I am so grateful to Rich for offering us such a great forum.

I wonder if anyone has seen overdoes of vitamin a from it?

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I would think if this happened (death from Vit A overdose) it would not be known why the animal died, unless a full necropsy is done, which most times it is not.

Just remember that Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin, and that because fat soluble vitamins are not extracted from the body, they can build up to toxic levels. That is a fact. I would advise people do do some research on Vitamin A, and how it builds up in the body.

I of course respect your opinions as well and I always welcome healthy and intelligent debates and discussions on our geckos. As far as color, I think that when you have beautiful geckos (as you do) Vionate or no Vionate isn't going to make much of a difference, genetics is the key to nice colors and patterns, not supplements! Just FYI, I have noticed similar results a day or two after offering herpivite as well. My main concern is the high Vitamin A content, but again, it's just my thoughts on the matter based on what I have read, not personal experience.

I'm glad we can discuss these issues here on fauna, and I am so grateful to Rich for offering us such a great forum.

I agree 100% with you Kelli. I think we can only learn more and more, but I believe that most of it is going to be with experience. I will post, you can be sure of that, any negative aspects of using vionate through out the years if I find any, because the health of my geckos come first and I will let everybody know not to use it.
Alberto