!!!!rock/sand Question!!!!

I'm starting to breed leopard geckos, (my state needs reptiles) lol, well I want a cheap real substrate, I don't like to use paper towel honestly I don't know why. Will the fish rocks work? Like the blue, or any color ones, if you know what i'm talking about answer me back ASAP, I use play sand right now, but my parents don't always take me to lowes or whatever, so you know, and there is a pet store closer to my house then any other place with play sand, well thank you very much, and I hope u will answer me back. Thank you.


ps:is it good for bearded dragons to? well could I at least use it.Also I see in crestedgecko.com that he uses the fish rocks.


From:Brent Allen email [email protected] AIM albinoleodotcom

Rocks...

ooohhh...if the geckos swallow the rocks, they will end up with a major impaction problem (most likely). The rocks would be easy to clean but it is way to risky. I use a very light layer of calcisand on top of the paper towels. Easy to clean & cuts down the risk of them swallowing the sand. Also looks pretty nice. Good luck with your breeding projects!
Ro Hill

I would not put hatchlings or any gecko under 6 inches on any kind of particulate substrate (sand, gravel, pebbles, etc). Hatchlings have very delicate gastrointestinal tracts and are very prone to getting impacted.

While it's not cheap, you can use stone tiles, but they literally last forever.

The other thing you can use if you want "natural" is very large flat river polished rocks (~2" in. diameter and 1/4 in. thick or just bigger than an adults head), however I wouldn't uses these for hatchlings as they can get their limbs stuck between rocks if they shift, adults are strong enough just to kick the rocks around. This is also a very bad substrate if you feed crickets (they'll melt into the rocks and never come out).

The last alternative is astroturf, if you like green... they also have it in the dirty brown color too I think.

-Dave

This is something which I feel fairly strongly about, odd as that might seem when it comes to a discussion about substrates...

There is nothing wrong with particulate substrates when they are used appropriately. Used inappropriately, they're virtually guaranteed to kill something eventually.

First- it's absurd to state that any animal is so fragile as to be unable to encounter a patch of sand or dirt. If they were, there would never be a sustained population of any of these animals in nature, they'd be dead within a generation... Little piles of impacted leopard geckos littering the mideast.

However, the nature of the substrates that are frequently used in captivity is not identical to the nature of similar materials found in the wild. Leopard geckos do not come from the loose, windswept sand dues of the Sahara, they live on dirt and rocks, but the dirt and rocks they are found on is frequently compacted by the natural elements. Loose sand can be dangerous... pour some water on it, let it dry... Now it's compact sand. It still allows the animals to dig around, is still far softer than the bottom of a glass tank with a paper towel over it and it looks much better for a display enclosure. Anyone else familiar with the problems that birds develop if they have only regular perches of a uniform shape and width? Do you really think the unyeilding bottom of a ten gallon tank can't have a similar effect on a lizard?

Prey size is a big issue too... people need to stop being so worried about making life "easy" on their lizards... Feeding two week crickets to a leopard gecko which is more than a month, maybe a month and a half old is simply absurd. I don't care if the big ones make noises or if they hop around too much so your gecko has to chase them around... Most of the time an animal becomes impacted, it's because some dink is feeding them prey items which are about a quarter of the size they should be, forcing the lizard to move it's head close to the substrate when striking and leaving them with a mouthful of sand. Don't go overboard and try feeding a neonate leopard gecko a full grown hissing cockroach, but lay off the pinheads.

Calcisand is garbage.

Natural sand, either the fine mixes which are bagged and sold or the forty pound bags of playsand sold at home depot are both appropriate substrates for many desert dwelling herps, provided it's used appropriately.

This crusade against particulate substrates falls into the same group as the crusade about how pet stores are evil and importing animals is morally wrong... it's a load of hyped up bull that's promulgated by people who don't have the facts and haven't thought things through but that has somehow become popular to repeat as a mantra.

sand and safety

I have used calcisand for years without ANY problems with impaction. As I stated earlier, only a light layer is used. I also use several rocks of various shapes, textures & sizes to give a more realistic habitat for my leos. I won't use play sand because it would need to be washed or heated to clean it before using it. It would be a cheaper alternative & would probably work if used similar to the way Seamus described. I agree about the prey size issue...but keep in mind it is also important to offer more than just 1 type of food (crickets are a good staple item). There are probably a thousand alternatives for substrate use...do a thread search for some more ideas.
Ro Hill

I used playsand for years for certain species of herps, never washed it either by the way.
Then I found the mortar grade sand at lowe's. This is basically river sand, it's brown and much coarser than playsand and is not uniform in grain size. It looks much better than the unnatural pure white of playsand and when it dries after being wet it forms a hard packed crust.
I use it for my acanthurus monitors now and they tunnel through it extensively. I also used it for laying substrate for veiled chameleons.
If I ever keep leopard geckos again, I'll use it with them too. It's cheap, and the best particulate substrate I've found.

I agree that for what it is calci-sand is garbage. Another over priced commercial gimmick now that herps are fashionable.

Excellent post Seamus, I agree with everything you stated. Many just don't give their herps enough credit for the ability to thrive in a harsh natural environment where prey size isn't always ideal, temperature flucuates widely, and rats aren't served defrosted.
They're not delicate littel creatures that must be sheltered from every possible, often imagined, threat. They are hardy tough creatures who specialize in survival. Once it is realized just what they are capable of, a new depth of appreciation develops.

I know it's much more interesting watching a gecko navigate the uneven terrain of a naturalistic enclosure while it hunts various sized crickets as opposed to watching the same gecko merely exist in a plain paper towel lined cage while it picks small mealworms from a dish because it's all "safe".
I tend to think the former conditions provide a better "quality of life" as well.

Excellent topic and one that has been on my mind recently.

I know I used to be very much against substrates with the potential to be ingested when giving advice to new keepers, and I still don't feel I would ever suggest "digestable" substrates.

For every argument about natural setups being better and the animals being fully capable of thriving in them, you can make the argument that Leopard Geckos probably do not live 20+ years in the wild.


That said, I've spent the greater part of the weekend and will spend much of tomorrow moving my leopard geckos back into glass tanks with playsand substrate.

I found keeping them hidden from sight in racks to have taken away much of my appreciation and love for the hobby.

For every argument about natural setups being better and the animals being fully capable of thriving in them, you can make the argument that Leopard Geckos probably do not live 20+ years in the wild.

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This is true, but why don't they live 20 years in the wild? Wild geckos have to deal with predators, parasites, and pathogens that captive geckos normally don't have to deal with.
It's unlikely that purely environmental factors contribute to any real degree to the shorter lifespans of wild geckos.
As Seamus said, if geckos were that prone to impaction, they would have gone extinct eons ago.

While there are some I'm sure that would disagree, as far as I'm concerned, even if it halved their lifespan I would still prefer to house them naturally. I'd rather see a gecko live for 10 years in a stimulating naturalistic environment, where both me and the gecko can truly enjoy the full range of their behavior, than to see one live 20 years in a paper towel lined sweater box with a butter bowl hide and nothing but mealworms to eat.
The fact that they can survive their full lifespans in such an alien environment is a testament to their ability to deal with their environment.

While those with 1000 leopard geckos have to house them in racks and such, for the pet keeper, or small scale breeder, naturalistic enclosures are far better from both the perspective of the lizard and the keepers level of enjoyment.

Seamus, i think you are a leo lover in disguise!!!




hehehehehehehe

Leopard Geckos can be prone to impaction and still thrive in nature. With their ability to thrive on minimal nutrition and their rate of reproduction, its not a stretch to believe the continued existence of the species is not that difficult without living a fifth of their potential lifespan.


I'm willing to bet you could make a naturalistic rack setup fairly efficiently. Right now in a 4x2x6' space i have 16 ten gallon tanks with heat lamps. If I had the need to conserve space even more i could easily move to half height 10 gallons and use a more space efficient heat/lighting and still achieve my goals. Of course at this point you could look to stackable cages, but the cost would be outrageous I'm sure. I'm doing this with 30 geckos, would I do it for 300? That would be 40' of wall space. Not likely.

Seamus, i think you are a leo lover in disguise!

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I do love leopard geckos... they're so full of nutrients and inexpensive.

Leopard Geckos can be prone to impaction and still thrive in nature. With their ability to thrive on minimal nutrition and their rate of reproduction, its not a stretch to believe the continued existence of the species is not that difficult without living a fifth of their potential lifespan

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But... at what age are leopard geckos most prone to impaction?

Responses within this thread would lead me to believe that it's far more of a problem with neonates kept on very loose particulate substrates than it is with adults. If adults are pretty impact resistant, then another cause must be cited for the length of the wild lifespan and I think Clay pegged it dead on.

We do strive to make the environment as safe as possible for our animals, we don't expose them to their natural predators, we don't force them into temperatures which may be unhealthy, we don't cause dehydration or introduce parasites deliberately and we minimize environmental dangers as well.

There are different types of risk though, there are those which have no benefit or where the likely outcome is far more negative than positive (like planting ticks because it's "natural"). Then there are those with a truly minimal risk but with a great deal of positive ramifications... I think that using sand appropriately gives many positive returns and isn't as risky as some would like to believe. Using sand inappropriately is entirely different of course.

I kept all my adult breeders on playsand for several years and I never had an impaction problem. Not once. I think sand is fine for healthy adult (40 grams +) leos.

Seamus Haley said:

I do love leopard geckos... they're so full of nutrients and inexpensive.

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oh i see! you feel about the same as i do corn snakes!!!
YUM!! i hear they make for some good eatin!!!!!

delicacies...MMMMMMMMM!

with a nice tangy orange sauce and a side of sauteed red potatoes and a ceasar salad. corn snakes make a very nice and colorful meal. i seen it once on Emeril. *BAM*

battered and deep fried tempura style, i bet gecko tail tastes like calamari and they grow back.