ReptileDan07 (Daniel) BAD ??? You decide.

I posting this for several reasons. 1) To make people aware of this person 2) What to do if you are inquiring on someone selling hets.
Now, is this guy BAD ? Ill let you read the following below and you come to your on conclusions. Last night a guy named Daniel emailed me about a trade. I also seen one of his ads in Fauna's Boas/Pythons sections.

Subj: your corns  
Date: 6/8/2002 11:44:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: ReptileDan07
To: Jwoma



Hi,
  i am interested in your corn's. Will you be willing to trade for same of the reptiles listed?

0.1 Peruvian X Columbian X salmon DH for albino Red-tail Boa
1.1 FL "Speckled" kingsnake's
1.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake
1.0 Bearded Dragon Gold X Rust
0.1 Fire Belly Toad

aprox. how long are your corns? are they eating good?
Let me know what you think

Thanks,
         Daniel

Subj: Re: your corns  
Date: 6/9/2002 1:17<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>5 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Jwoma
To: ReptileDan07



Hi,

  In all honesty the Boa only attracts my interest. But, your title is a tad bit confusing or misinformed. I can understand about the different locality's. But a Salmon Hypo Het. For Albino is MUCH more expensive than $125. Who bred it ? If its not a Hypo, then its not a D.H. Let me know. Like I said the ad doesnt make much since. Thanks, Joe.D

Dembinski Reptile's

Subj: Re: your corns  
Date: 6/9/2002 1:21<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>3 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: ReptileDan07
To: Jwoma



It was bred by someboby named Mike. it is not hypo. It has bloches of salmon. hypo and salmon are two different thing's. Do you have anything else to offer to even up the trade?

Daniel

Subj: Re: your corns  
Date: 6/9/2002 1:32:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Jwoma
To: ReptileDan07



Hi Daniel,

 Thanks for the offer, but Ill have to pass. I don't deal in hets without the full breeders name, contact and papaerwork. It protects me and my customers. Also, Salmon in reference to Boas is Hypo (at least when you claim D.H. thats what people will assume). Just because its has some Salmon color doesnt make it a D.H. Unless he proved out some Salmon colored traits in his own line. With no full name theres no way to verifiy. IF so, Id like to see pics of his "salmon trait". Neither is it considered a D.H. because its a locality cross. At best its a crossed out Het. Albino. With a misinformed ad, NO paperwork, NO name other than a guy named "mike" and the fact that it cant be verified. Well, chances are its nothing but a normal crossed Boa. I would get ahold of this Mike and get some more info. I think you may have been taken. Good Luck, Joe.D

Dembinski Reptile's

Subj: Re: your corns  
Date: 6/9/2002 1:39:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: ReptileDan07
To: Jwoma



I know it is a DH because my best friend bread it and his name is Mike FRAIZER, and he bought two proven het's w/ paper work. Why would I need paper work if it is my best friend. If I bread her w/ a albino male and and no albino's came out, all I would have to do is go and talk w/ him, thats why I dont have paper work..


Daniel

Subj: Re: your corns  
Date: 6/9/2002 1:45:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Jwoma
To: ReptileDan07



Hi Daniel,

 O.K. Now your getting more confusing. Did HE breed it or not ? You claim he bred it in one line and in the other claim he bought two proven hets with paperwork ?? If he did breed them, then what was the ACTUAL breeding that produced THIS animal. If your going to sell Hets, its wise to have paperwork (friend or not). Thanks, Joe.D

Dembinski Reptile's

** He never responded to my last email **

Let's get some facts here.

1) This guy is claiming its a D.H., but there's NO way it can be. Let's rule out his confusing locality crosses. Now, your left with Het. Albino and Salmon. IF his buddy bred it, then he would have to be claiming his own "Salmon colored" line. He wont email me what was the actual breeding or pics of the parents, so who knows ?
Now, he claims that "Salmon" and "Hypo" are 2 different things. Here's a quote from Rich Ihle's site (The breeder who created his line of Salmon Hypos). QUOTE: "In watching these animals mature, I knew they were special. I was able to purchase the adults and again they produced a beautiful litter of these hypomelanistic boas. I was so impressed with their salmon colors, I decided to call them "Salmon Boas".

These are the animals that started the Salmon project in the mid 1990's."

So, this proves that "Salmon" is in one way or another, a Hypo. Not a Boa with Salmon color.

2) This guy first claims that somebody named "Mike" produced it. Then, claims its his friend.
3) NO paperwork.

People when buying hets, do the following and Im sure, youll get what you pay for. If the deal is too good to be true, it probably is.

1) Ask who produced the animal
2) If they didnt produce it, then who did ? Contact the breeder and get the story verified.
3) DEMAND paperwork from the dealer !! This way you'll have the documented breeding of that animal and all personal info. on the dealer, so you can get ahold of him if its NOT what its supposed to be.
4) Ask to see pics of the parents and if possible a pic of the actual birth.
5) Ask references.
6) If the dealer/breeder seems to be getting annoyed with your requests, Dont do business with them. These are questions that help protect YOU. Its YOUR money. You have every right to ask and request these simple things.

Thanks,

Joe Dembinski

Joe,

Talking about red flags!

</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>Why would I need paper work if it is my best friend.</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

This guy hasn't obviously read some of the threads in the BOI! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>3) DEMAND paperwork from the dealer !! This way you'll have the documented breeding of that animal and all personal info. on the dealer, so you can get ahold of him if its NOT what its supposed to be.
4) Ask to see pics of the parents and if possible a pic of the actual birth.
5) Ask references.
6) If the dealer/breeder seems to be getting annoyed with your requests, Dont do business with them. These are questions that help protect YOU.</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Joe,

I will take it one step further. In my opinion paperwork from a reputable breeder IS NOT ENOUGH. In words of one of the most reputable ball breeders... "hopefully the papers were kept with the right snake!!..

100% heteros have to be sold WITH A PICTURE (signed by the original breeder) of the animal in question showing his particular markings/color.

In my opinion paperwork from a reputable breeder IS NOT ENOUGH. In words of one of the most reputable ball python breeders... "hopefully the papers were kept with the right snake!!..There is no way a breeder will remember a particular snake he sold a while ago if he doesn't have a picture in record to compare the animal to. At least that's what I am requesting when I buy heteros and it seems serious breeders are now understanding why.

What's at stake here is the reputation of the original BREEDER not that of the middle man. Who are you going to complain to if you don't produce what you expected? Mr. "X" that disappeared after the sale? or the original breeder from whom you have the paperwork?

You have probably noticed I made reference only to 100% heteros. Paperwork from animals that are 66%, 50% (and you can go as far down the line in percentages as you like) are IMHO worthless, unless they are bought DIRECTLY from the breeder. They are just a disclaimer for the seller explaining why you paid what you paid for a snake that turned out to be a normal.

Best regards,  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  

HI Daniel,

 You make good points, but paperwork IS one key into insuring the purchase. Why ? You can go back to the dealer/breeder that you purchased it from. He would have to prove or disprove your claim. I know your next question is how ? 1) Issues like what it was bred to ? If it was a het to het breeding, then you still MAY not get that trait in your first try. I know of a well known breeder who purchased a pair of hets and it took 3 tries to finally get 1 animal expressing that certain recessive trait. 2) If it was a het to het breeding then are you sure the other animal that bred the animal in question is a ligit het ?? If all other avenues have been explored, then the breeder or dealer should buy back the animal in question. That way the dealer/breeder can then go back to the breeder and request a refund as well OR prove it out himself. If it doesnt prove out, then the dealer can go back with a strong claim, that he wasnt sold a het.
Now, Hets are great, but you have to be sure your dealing with someone honest (breeder or dealer). Honest dealers and breeders would clearly do the following (at least). It always seems the dealer/breeder is made out as the bad guy in situations like this, but I will tell you, the customer can be just as much a "con" as well. As far as poss hets go, thats a shear "trust" issue. I have had ALOT of people ask me if I had and 50% or 66% poss hets available. I tell them "rarely" unless I KNOW the breeder. If my customer is buying a "Ligit" 50% or 66% het, I want to make sure their getting just that. A HONEST chance.
Now, I know you can disect this all you want. That's how I view buying, breeding and selling Hets and Poss hets. If you chose to trust NO ONE, then thats your choice. Your only left with doing the following steps. 1) Save the money up. 2) Buy the morph itself. 3) Breed and produce your own hets 4) Raise up the hets. 5) And breed it back. Thats the only 100% sure way. I only stated ways to "help" customers look at ways to try and make sure your geting what they are paying for. Is it full proof ? No. But, like I stated above, the only way to be full proof is to do all the steps listed above. Im VERY picky on who I get Hets from (usually VPI, Joliff, Sharpe, Kahl, etc.) and after being taken myself for thousands before, I cant help but be somewhat untrusting. Some people wish to "trust" NO ONE. I can, to a point, understand. I guess I still have a part of me that still believes there's honest breeder and dealers out there.

Joe Dembinski

Dembinski Reptile's

BTW, that is another great point to ask Daniel. I feel the dealer or breeder SHOULD supply pics of the hets to be purchased. Simple, but makes since (thats why I have pics of everything i sell. Het or not. You buy what you see). If the breeder says he's too busy to supply pics, then move on. I guess he doesnt want your business anyways.

Joe Dembinski

Dembinski Reptile's

Joe,

Don't get me wrong I trust people. Sometimes too much (I was taken by the same indiviual not once but three times&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>.

Simple business math. You buy a baby 100% hetero for albino ball python pair from a known breeder for $1,400 shipped. Between both they will eat on the average $20 worth of rodents per month (I'm assuming you are buying the mice). That's $240 per year. On the third year (pushing it) you get your first clutch for a feeding cost of $600 (I deducted almost 3 months for the off-feed breeding period). So now you are in $2,000. Let's assume you breed them and you get a clutch of 4 eggs (normal for a primiparous female) and you get lucky and hit in the first try the "statistical" proportion of 1 albino and three "possibles". This year albinos sold for $2,500. Could you adventure how much they will go for 3 years from now?

I agree there is still honesty out there. But there is also a lot of lying and I'm a sucker when it comes to give people a second chance. It doesn't hurt to "buy" insurance...A signed picture from the original breeder (or a microchip for those that want to be even fancier) will give you that. Believe me, it's already starting and morph breeders that don't adhere to a fool proof ID system will be left behind.

Have a good one! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Well, getting back to the original subject, he's either bad, or extremely ignorant of the genetics of hypomelanism in boas.

Hi Daniel,

 Was never hinting that YOU were untrusting. In my reply "YOU" meant whoever was reading the reply. Sometimes these threads come across the wrong way. Reason I see alot of "flame wars" started. Let's just say my point is, deal with someone who will back up what they sell and ways to help prevent a scam. Thats all.
 As far as the market goes, thats just the way it works. Morphs come down, its a fact. NO one can predict the market on any givin morph. As far as your "feeding totals" go, something can always get worked out. Honest breeders/dealers will work with you and I feel a honest customer would do the same. Well, in a honest world at least. I just hate when someone tries to scam me or anyone in our hobby. Why ? It makes it that much harder for everyone else.

Joe Dembinski

Dembinski Reptile's

This same guy wanted to trade me these same animals last week for a super tiger retic I had. The only difference is the boa was just a cross when he offered it to me. Nothing was ever mentioned about being het for albino. I wish I had the email saved but I lost my hard drive and all the past emails I had saved on it. I showed some interest in it also until I saw the picture of it. It was a very bad pic and hard to see any qualities of the boa. I decided to pass as well.

Mike Jones

Daniel thanks for the idea.
I did not have a Brazilian redtail male this season so i thought it would be interesting breeding my albino male to see how nice the widows peaks and tails would come out on the Hets. I will definitely be taking pics of eack before selling now to varify they are hey for albino.  Also about this ReptileDan post man none of that ---- mad any sense.  Red Flag and a half.  Well thanks for the idea later herpers!
Jeff Draesel,Jr.
Herps Limited Inc.
[email protected] <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (rujonesin @ June 09 2002,15:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This same guy wanted to trade me these same animals last week for a super tiger retic I had. The only difference is the boa was just a cross when he offered it to me. Nothing was ever mentioned about being het for albino. I wish I had the email saved but I lost my hard drive and all the past emails I had saved on it. I showed some interest in it also until I saw the picture of it. It was a very bad pic and hard to see any qualities of the boa. I decided to pass as well.

Mike Jones</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
MIKE JONES!

You are full of it! I never wanted a Super Tiger Retic much less a normal Retic. Where is your proof that I said my Boa ( Which is now gone ) is not het? You dont have any, thats what I thought! Your hard drive or whatever didnt shut down, you just have no proof of that so called "e-mail" making me look bad! That just makes you look bad for being a liar! Sorry for being rude but, treat poeple how YOU want to be treated! You have NO RIGHT posting a lie that makes me look bad!

Daniel

Well, that's TOO funny!  This Dan guy has this whole thread about how he either completely misunderstood or misrepresented his own animal's genetic makeup, and he's upset about Mike saying that he did the same thing about another deal!

It reminds me of a TV show where a woman of less than honorable reputation was called a French "lady of the evening."  Her response?  "I'm not FRENCH!"  LOL

Dan, is Mike lying because you didn't do the same thing to him that you tried to do to Joe, or is he lying simply because he can't prove he's telling the truth.  I have no idea what the truth is, but Dan, say something to disprove Joe's evidences or admit that you're hung out to dry!

This is too funny we have gotten an e-mail from him saying he wants to trade for some of the things we have for sell and wanted to trade.  And that our stuff was only worth 250.00 and his was well over 450.00 and we were getting the deal. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>   No, we declined and now reading this I am soooo glad we did cause he offered up the same animals.


Torie Miller