Keeper Verus Vet Treatment With A Poll

Over the years I have noticed two camps regarding the administration of health care to herps, basically: they who tell you bring the herp to a vet for any such care, and they who would have the keeper treat the animal. This issue has always been a curiosity for me. I prefer to treat my own animals whenever possible. I am of the mind that if such treatment is good enough for humans, dogs, cats, tropical fish, and farm animals then it should be good enough for herps. After all you can go to a pet shop or a feed store and buy many over the counter anti-parasitic medications, antibiotics and so forth for all these other types of animals; however, when it comes to herps there are almost no really effective and relatively safe medications available over the counter. Many treatments for things such as parasites are fairly easy (almost foolproof) to administer and can be given with food items. Others can be injected, and this is not too difficult for someone with half a brain. Yet veterinarians, some pet owners, and animals rights activists would apparently have us believe that we are violating some sort of herps rights by not having an animal treated by veterinarian. While the owner of other more 'acceptable' types of animals can, in many instances, treat their animals without a visit to the vet, the herp owner often has no recourse except to do it at great expense with a vet, or illegally.

I think that keeper treatments of herps should at least be available for shotgun treating parasites (as is done with dogs, cats, birds, tropical fish, horses, cattle, chickens, goats, pigs and so forth), or should be available after fecal smear or float proves positive. I also think that the drugs used for such treatments should be available over the counter without a veterinary prescription. I am also for some other keeper treatments of animals such as administration of antibiotics for respiratory illnesses and so forth.

What do you folks think?

Oh, by the way, I put this here instead of under another forum so that it would get more widespread viewing by the whole of the faunaclassifieds herper community than by just those who visit the more specific herp health related forums. Since I have added a poll, I wanted it to be visited, read, and taken by the widest array of herpers on these forums to make it more objective and fair.

All the best,
Glenn B

In my opinion, there is not one answer that can be applied to all keepers.
The ailment as well as keeper experience must be factored in. Some people are fully capable of performing many treatments themselves, but some to be honest have no business keeping the animal at all let alone medicating it.

I don't have any problem with a person medicating at home, but it is not always best to do it completely without the supervision of a qualified vetrinarian.
One of the biggest points is dosage. There's just not many average keepers that can calculate the appropriate dosage for everything from a 2 foot WC kingsnake to a 17 foot burm.
The biggest problem presented is inadvertantly developing a resistant strain of a given pathogen through inadequate medication levels. Shotgun style medicating is often blamed for this. Enough meds are administered to kill many of the pathogens, but those that survive at times develop a resistance to that medication over time and become harder to treat in the future.

I personally think it's best to at least consult a vetrinarian. Most of the common medications have at least been issued a good idea of the appropriate mg/kg dosage and this is the most important information.
As time passes, a person who regularly finds himself needing to medicate new acquisitions will need the vet less and less as he gains the information on the various meds he uses.

The ideal situation would be that many things like common anti parasitic meds would be available over the counter, and anyone who is not well versed in their usage would take it upon themselves to consult a vet initially, and vets would be willing to work on a consultation basis.
The drawback is it simply will not work this way. Some will read in a forum to give flagyl, panacur etc, and proceed to randomly medicate their herps based on this information.
Many people do not know that a snake needs shots administered in a certain portion of the body. They read to give Xcc of Amikacin for URI and decide to save some money by picking up some at the local feed store and start medicating. They may have a 60lb retic or a half grown bullsnake. All they know is to give Xcc and think that's it.

People who are expereinced in medicating herps, and willing to seek help when needed should be able to. It's just difficult to prevent the unknowledgable people from playing armchair vet without punishing those who are capable.
The best answer in my opinion is to keep many meds available from the vet only, and for each keeper to develop a relationship with a qualified vet. Then as the vet becomes sure of the keepers ability, he can provide the meds without requiring the keeper to bring the animal in.
This maintains a stop gap to prevent inappropriate medicating by just anybody who is not capable of doing it properly while allowing the more experienced to economically treat what is often larger groups of animals.

clay wonderfully written i agree totally

In my area there are no vets who have ANY experiance with herps. They just call Madison to see what to do. Which I can do at home.

I also wonder if some vets and vet techs may be a bit sciddish around snakes and other herps. I don't want any shaky hands trying to care for my animals.

THat can be a toughy though. I'd hate to see someone abusing the system.

just my two cents

I brought a blood python into the vet who at the time weighed about 600 grams. He was hissy and nervous because he wasn't feeling well, but with slow gentle handling he was very tractable. And just a baby besides. The vet tech treated him like a gaboon viper and at one point was holding him by the neck with the rest of his body swinging in the air! If I hadn't grabbed him and supported him, she might have snapped his neck. And this is the most highly recommended exotics vet office in my area (and not the only story I have like this)!
I'm not saying don't go to the vet, vets are an integral part of herp keeping and doubly so for newbies. It's just best to educate yourself and try to discourage cervical dislocation as a treatment for minor complaints.

Erin B.

That is a thing about vets: Just because they are veterinarians does not mean they really know virtually anything about herps or are more qualified in a knowledgeable sense to work on them than a herp keeper. Of course, legally they can work on them, but you must remember that the great majority of veterinarians in this country are trained either on domesticated farm animals or the more acceptable house pet such as the cat or dog. Most know little if anything about herps, fish, small mammals, arachnids, crustaceans, or insects. There are a few more who know birds but nowhere near as many as there should be. Many of these veterinarians then turn to so called experts, such as Melissa Kaplan for advice. If that were the case with a vet I used, I would discontinue using the vet and I would rather have a shaman treating my herp.

By the way, anyone who thinks a vet can be sufficiently knowledgeable to competently treat a wide array of animal types is taking a big risk with his or her pet. Specialists are what is needed. Of course there are some real herp specialists out there, but very few and therefor rather expensive.


Here is one of my own experiences with trying to select a vet to do a fecal exam for parasites. I once brought fecal samples to a vet for some of my snakes and asked them to do an examination for parasites. The vet told me that one examination would suffice. I asked what type that would be of the kinds available and, he told me there is only one type of fecal exam for parasites. (That is not correct!) When I then asked if that was a fecal smear or fecal float the vet looked at me quizzically and asked what is a fecal float! This was supposedly someone who "specialized" in exotic pets - with an emphasis on reptiles. I walked out the door.

The story does not end there. When I checked with several other vets in the area, all but one (out of about 10 as I recall - but if you look hard you will find a thread on it somewhere in the fauna archives) had no to very little knowledge of the subject. Some agreed to do shotgun treatments for parasites, others wanted to get positive results from a fecal smear (and would only perform this one test) and the single guy out there who seemed competent would perform a fecal smear, fecal float and would check the snake physically for internal parasites (flukes in the throat and mouth) ( and he may even be from another incident I am thinking about).

You may think that was it, but then came yet another factor. That factor was the bottom line - price. Remember I said fecal sampleS not sample. This was for around 10 (or more baby ball pythons). Well some of the vets would charge per snake at their regular price, some would charge per snake at a reduced rate, some would charge a somewhat higher rate than for one snake for the test but would test all the samples then would charge to treat them all. Oh yes didn't I say, those first price quotes were for the test and only the test - of course any treatment would be more. Others were more price friendly and would charge a flat fee for everything combined - but it was still darned high. Some wanted to shotgun treat and charge per snake, and some wanted to charge for a visit for each snake, plus a test for each snake plus treat per snake. - you get the picture. If not let me spell it out - it was highway robbery in progress. Not only was each place fairly to very expensive, but if you heard the disparity between the price differences you would just about drop dead; and not just he disparity between the vets prices but the difference between the prices for the medication that is usually dirt cheap (yes Flagyl and Panacur are pretty cheap and those were usually the drugs of choice mentioned by the vets).

For anyone who feels a need to say "Don't buy an animal unless you can afford it..." allow me to say please come down to the real world with your head out of the methane. In the real world there is a large group of rather unscrupulous bums ready to steal our money in the name of healthy animals. I can afford my animals, each and every one of them, but I cannot afford to throw away money with charlatans and crooks. This happens with all sorts of vets, even those who mainly treat dogs and cats but is much more prevalent among those who treat exotics in my experience.

As it is now I don't even remember what I did. I think I wound up shotgun treating them myself. Of course I have used a vet for a set of fecals before. I used a guy who did what the honest guy above suggested at a reasonable price too. That vet was hard to find but I found him - I guess living in the NYC metro area helped on that account. Too bad that guy has moved away. Now I depend upon on some good husbandry, quarantine practices, and so forth to avoid parasites - but they are not always avoidable with my choice of herps. When I bring home wild caught - I shotgun treat them. This is never as hard as having to give yourself an enema; and believe me without my going into details, that is not fun but really none to difficult to accomplish! {ROTFLMAO but how true}. As for dosages, well dosages should be commercially available in graduated steps - that would simplify things nicely - just as has already been done for cats, dogs, and birds, farm animals, and tropical fish.

It all makes me wonder: Is it pretty much just those evil herps that can not be treated by their keepers. Do they need a guy in a white coat to do it because they are so alien to us that only an "expert" can do it. Or maybe it is because the vet industry needs more money. Or maybe it is because of the preconceived notion of what makes a herp keeper tick! After all, aren't we all weirdoes, bikers, criminals, gang members, animal abusers, and nerds? It was not too long ago that this was (and maybe still is) the notion by which others conceived us. I am not of that set (well maybe a bit weird). I know how to care for my animals to avoid most of these problems, and I know how to care for most of them should a problem arise. Just as dog, cat, bird, tropical fish, farm animal owners are allowed to decide for themselves to bring an animal to a vet or to diagnosis and treat many animal health problems at home - so too, I think, should herp keepers be allowed the recognition that they too are smart enough to take on the same responsibilities.

Best regards,
Glenn B

Going to a vet is way too much like going to a mechanic. "Well, it's sort of going 'hrrummph". "Hmm, really ma'am. Sounds like a misaligned valve. We're going to have to do some tests".

But this 'problem' is not just a reptile one, you should see what small rodent owners are expected to put their animals and their credit lines through to buy their pets another 2 months of life. And it's being shown that yearly dog vaccinations are a bit of a racket too. It's very tough to tell newbies what to do, because I can't help their snakes over the internet, but the vet they go to might not help too much either. I mostly tell them to go to the vet so they have half a chance of having a conversation with a living person who might be able to ferret out husbandry problems and such. That's always what I hope, anyway.

Heh, last time I was at the vet there was a lady at the counter with a box turtle who I think just had an eating problem. She was talking about how his blood counts looked better than last week. I think the vet just bought a new yacht called "the chelonian".

Oh yeah... my vet just has the Mader reptile book in the back. He does nothing but run back to consult it. He literally said that if we got the book we could put him out of a job. We stopped going to the vet so much after that (and we are planning to buy the updated version of the book). It's sort of to the point where if I don't know what the problem is and how to solve it there's an excellent chance they don't know either.

Erin B.

I guess I'm more fortunate than I realized.
While I rarely need his services, I have access to a very competent herp vet. He regularly attends conferences to keep up to date on the latest developments in reptile medicine, and is an all around good guy.

It is true though that much some of the vetrinarian services are nothing more than a racket. Annual vaccination boosters that Erin mentioned are an excellent example.
The AVMA reported in their journal in 1998 I believe, I'd have to check to be sure, that there exists no scientific support fo rannual revaccinations, yet I'd estimate that 90% of vets try to get you in there every year for more shots.
I hate to get off topic with this, but it's a subject that really rubs me the wrong way. I'll be brief, but make a couple of points.

Vaccines do nothing to prevent disease in and of themselves. They are merely a catalyst that triggers the immune system to protect itself. The time span varies slightly, but with the majority of canine ailments, the immunity has been shown to remain for an average of 7 years, in the case of some diseases it's easily good for the life of the dog.
Once you get the antibodies flowing, what happens when you re vaccinate? The antibodies attack the vaccine and destroy it just as it would the virus itself, and immunity is not actually enhanced, it's already there and working.

The fact is a huge percentage of revenue in the average vetrinary practice comes from vaccinations and annual checkups. It's in their financial best interest for you to bring the dog in every year for a series of shots.
Furthermore, if you can find a vet who's been at it for 30 years or so, you'll likely learn that when he was schooled they did not teach annual vaccination. The change was brought about by the pharmacuetical companies during the early 80s. Today, these companies actually send reps to lecture at some schools, and of course they advocate annual boosters, so younger vets practice it by default since they were schooled that way.

I like to take this approach....
Next time your vet tells you it's time for the annual booster, ask him if his doctor told him he needed to come in every year for a booster shot for polio, small pox, measles, mumps, etc. what would he say?
Then ask what type of inherent deficiency is afflicting canine immune systems that prevents them from maintaining their immunity.

I've rambled way off topic enough. I won't even begin with the atrocity of store bought dog food and the realities behind it (including the precious Science Diet found in virtually every vet's office I've ever seen).
When you have a couple of hours, if you are so inclined, research the net a bit on canine vaccines and diet, very interesting reading for dog lovers.

I always always think it's creepy when I go to the vets and I see them wearing scrubs sent to them by some dog drug company or other. It's like... so HOW much are they paying you to prescribe this medicine? I also love how they want me to give my dog heartworm preventative in November when I live in Ohio. Well, we shouldn't complain too much, there are some vets out there who are really trying and someday I'll get to meet one.

Erin B. and the Bucket of Cynicism

I don't think it is that cut and dried.

I don't think blanket statements like the ones in the poll can really apply. When it comes to medical treatment, some herpers are perfectly capable of treating their own animals, some could muddle through with varying degrees of success, and some are more likely to kill their animals than cure them.

It all depends on a combination of experience and natural aptitude. I think those who are capable should be allowed to treat their animals themselves. Although, separating the capable from the incapable may be difficult. Maybe people should be required to demonstrate knowledge of proper indications, administration and dosage of medications before being allowed to buy them without a vet's prescription. This could be done by an application similar to the ones many herp rescues require before adopting out an animal.

That's my opinion, for what it's worth.

The fact is that blanket policies allowing keepers to care for animals by administering many medications do exist in with care of almost every type of animal except herps. Therefor such blanket choices do apply in the real world of pet or animal care.

I truly understand herp keepers complaint about unqualified vets and the expenses etc, however, It is against the veterinarians oath and most state veterinary practice acts for a vet to prescribe medications for animals they have not performed a physical examination on. That is the bottom line. Although I know once some vets get a doctor/client/patient relationship established they may do these things as "favors", but it is against most states regulations and they could get their licenses pulled for doing that. Also, it really is for the protection of your animal for them to want to see them before prescribing meds. This is because some of the commonly used (sometimes overly used) antibiotics in herps CANNOT be administered to herps that are dehydrated, so they need to check hydration status. Also, they need to make sure that what is ailing your sick herp will be "covered" by the antibiotic they prescribe. Antibiotics (such as Baytril) that are overly prescribed are eventually going to cause huge problems. Many bacteria that cause illness ( such as upper respiratory infections in herps) can become resistent to antibiotics if overly used and not given properly, or given the full duration of the prescribed dosage.
i have been a licensed veterinary technician (specializing in exotics) for over 10 years. Just know I understand your concerns, just understand where the vets are coming from. As a reptile owner, you need to make sure and do some research on local vets in your area and see who has experience with exotics. That is your responsibility. Not every veterinarian is trained to handle exotic animal species including herps. Most usually only see dogs and cats. That is usually not part of their course of study in vet school..
I know that must of us that are experienced can certainly medicate are own animals, but in cases of illness, I think you should see a vet for proper diagnosis.

Just my .02

Shannon Richards LVT
&
Christian Wright
C&S REPTILES