CLAY, Let us Chat!

Clay come on, I live for the indepth conversation you And I could have.....

If we decide to start picking apart what each other say we will never get anything done....

Here, since you decided to snipe 2 of my quotes with out any regaurd to content.....The least you could do is use Quotation marks.

You Wrote, "sex is genetically determined at the time of fertilization".....Clay, then how do you expain the tens of thousands of Female Leopard Geckos born when incubated at 80*F......OR HOW can you dispute SCIENTIFIC evidence that points to Croc's Lay and hatch in accordance with specific temp. gradients. These temps. in all cases have a profound relation to SEX!!!

I never once said it was 100% determative or that the factors were perfect merely that I was triing to find a SEX linked CHROMOSOME for Albinism.....It may not exsist, I concede, BUT If the majority of Reptile Species has a High % of Sex determination do to TEMP. is it not reasonable to think that the Cal.King could too. BUT WAIT, by your 25-30 years of experience you say there is no way Temp.....determines.......Sex.........(I disagree)

Clay, I am triing to find out if it is linked or at best determinable by any factor, I don't care if the factor is Random, but I can tell you that Sex linked characteristics are found in every mating pair of animals on earth.....or did you forget that you shave your face...Take a close look at the genes that control Male characteristics.....if you new that a gene for Albinism was one of the few that were on the Y chrom. and that every time you had Albino offspring the US government gave you a million dollars, wouldn't you want all BOYS>>>>

Come on Clay, you know that the excitement of hatching eggs is just like X-mas when we were younger, its just now we look at the dollar signs when that oddity makes its way into the world. Wouldn't you like to be the one that knows what Santa wrapped.

First, for the benefit of others who will have no earthly idea where this thread came from, I'll post a link to the original discussion.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38876

As to the use of your quotes without quotation marks, I used the quote feature of this forum, as I will in this post, to designate things as being quoted.

Now, to the topic at hand.

Drunkenblade said:

You Wrote, "sex is genetically determined at the time of fertilization".....Clay, then how do you expain the tens of thousands of Female Leopard Geckos born when incubated at 80*F......OR HOW can you dispute SCIENTIFIC evidence that points to Croc's Lay and hatch in accordance with specific temp. gradients. These temps. in all cases have a profound relation to SEX!!!

Click to expand...

Do you refuse to read and comprehend the written word? As I stated in the other thread from which you took this from, I was referring to SNAKES. My quote had nothing whatsoever to do with leopard geckos, or any other reptile.
To be specific, I will restate my full comment here since you failed to do so:
I said,
"It's not that the kings follow their own rules, they simply follow the rules that apply for the vast majority of the animal kingdom, the sex is genetically determined at the time of fertilization."

Please read that once more, slowly. Notice where I said KINGS, as in KINGSNAKES. I did not say leopard geckos, nor did I say reptiles in general, I said KINGS.
Everyone knows leopard geckos and several other types of reptiles do display TDSD, but not SNAKES, which is all I was referring to.

Drunkenblade said:

If the majority of Reptile Species has a High % of Sex determination do to TEMP. is it not reasonable to think that the Cal.King could too.

Click to expand...

Considering that no other SNAKE species has displayed temperature dependant sex determination, I do not think it's reasonable to think cal kings will. I said SNAKE species, not leopard geckos.

As to the possibility of a sex linked chromosome for albinism. I may not be fully understanding what you are suggesting, but it sounds to me like you are looking for a correlation between either males or females being albino.
If this is indeed the case, I can't see the basis for the idea. Albinism is just a simple recessive color mutation and has nothing to do with the sex of the animal. Both male and female albinos will hatch from the same clutch.
I'm just having a hard time seeing the connection you are attempting to make with TDSD in cal kings and predicting the expression of the albino gene.

Drunkenblade said:

BUT WAIT, by your 25-30 years of experience you say there is no way Temp.....determines.......Sex.........(I disagree)

Click to expand...

Again you failed to even read what I wrote in the other post. I will restate that here as well...
"A last note, my wording was probably poor in my last post concerning the 25-30 years. I was not claiming I have bred kingsnakes for that length of time, but that is the general time frame in which they have been bred in higher numbers in the community as a whole. I have only produced them for the last 13 years personally."

To put this another way in hopes that it will sink in, cal kings have been bred in decent numbers by thousands of people in the hobby for over 25 years. I have not been breeding them that long, and never meant to infer that I had.
The reason for the statement was to make the point that with all these people hatching tens of thousands of cal kings over the last 25 years, if TDSD existed in this species (cal kings) someone would have noticed it before now.

I have no hidden agenda and I'm not contradicting what I have published on my website. I merely feel that attempting to discover temperature dependant sex determination in cal kings is a waste of effort. You apparently feel differently on this issue, so by all means explore it. Whether me or anyone else considers a particular area of interest to be worthwhile has no bearing on whether it should be investigated. I have a couple of research projects going on now that several people consider foolish, but I'm seeing progress.
I also never intended to pull you into any "BS". You have taken comments I have made regarding TDSD to mean things I never stated. Not once did I claim that TDSD didn't exist, only that it has never been seen to occur in snakes. You ran off on this tangent not me when you took what I said about snakes specifically and tried to apply it to reptiles in general.

Okay first off guys, this is a GOOD discussion, so let's keep it on the lighter side. No need to imagine that there are hidden agendas or insults.

Clay raises some very good questions, so Ken I'll rephrase some of them and add a few of my own:

1. What EXACTLY do you hope to prove. It perhaps might help if you presented us with your "ultimate hatching day" .... describe the parent snakes, and the offspring snakes, and the actual Ah-HAH!!! moment where the phenotype observed bears out your hypotheses.

2. I think that both Ken and Clay believe that sex is determined in SOME reptiles. The difference of opinion is that Ken believes it can be determined in snakes, and Clay does not believe it can be determined. As a statistician (my degree, not my occupation), I would expect that in order to prove this out you would need to have a LARGE number of clutches, with a large variety of males and females involved.

3. Sex-linked traits. I find it fascinating that snake "females" have (what WERE those letters anyway?, I'll use HUMAN ones because I forgot the relevant snake ones)... females are XY and males are XX ?. Sometimes I wonder if the definition of female and male is sort of bonkers, if you get this level of differences in snakes versus humans. But that's just my early-morning thoughts. I believe I've heard of certain Cornsnake morphs that are brighter or prettier or more prevalent in males... could be kingsnake, could be some other kind. But if the trait is recessive, and sex-chromosome-linked then it would NEVER appear within a female who has only one of the X-chromosomes (or whatever letter of the alphabet).

I believe that Clay understands that we all have sex-linked chromosomes, packed just FULL to the GILLS with genes.... it's part of the condition of being alive on this planet. (as humans or reptiles). But the biggest question is ARE there PHENOTYPE genes related to gender. Recessive ones would only be seen on the males, Dominant ones would be seen in both genders. Calico Cats are a good example. It's a recessive trait. Female Cat who has one calico gene and one NON calico gene looks non calico. She mates with a male who carries the calico gene on his X chromosome, but does not express it because his Y chromosome doesn't carry it. He breeds with the other, and some of their FEMALE babies are calico.

I love to learn about different projects for many different reasons. My statistical mindset loves to analyze experiments and see flaws and brilliant strokes of genius (because of course all people who have good experimental design are either statisticians, scientists, or are brilliant! )

Clay, would you like to share some of your projects?
Ken, would you like to share some of yours?

Let's try to keep the conversation constructive. Do try to read entire sentences and if you think someone is telling a whopper, such as "no sex determination in reptiles" than ask for clarification. If they say "that's the way it is, i don't gotta prove it." then go ahead and present your proof, or your argument, but try to not assume that just because the other person is saying something really WHACKO, that that is what they really mean.

I look forward to some fun discussions!

~~~~~~~~

My own experiments with Cal Kings are: Will a High White Cal King and a Wild Caught Cal King with PURE white bands have all WHITE babies (as opposed to yellow) or will some of the white on the babies turn yellow. It's not a very exciting project and stems mostly from teh fact that I have 4 female cal kings, 3 of them have yellow, one has white, and I have two males, both of whom are very white and very black in their markings. I prefer black and white to black and yellow, so I am hoping to get some very beautiful white babies from that pairing. There's also the whole striped versus banded. Last year I bred Bishop (high white) to Queenie (Newport Locale, dot/dash, light yellow on dark blackish brown)... I got babies that were the mother's coloring more than the father's coloring, and all of them were VERY aberrant. None looked like either parent. This year I redid that same pairing and I also bred the high white to a desert phase banded cal king. It will be interesting to see if I get any banded babies, or if they will all be aberrant. It's fun and exciting! But not really your deep experiment.

Okay, I'm going to offer my own ideas about Albinism being sex-linked... because I'm still forgetting the proper letters for the sex chromosomes of snakes, let's say a male snake is XX and a female snake is XY. (I know it's wrong). But for instance, let's say that is the way it is. Now I'm extending my much greater understanding of mouse genetics to a discussion of snake genetics, so I could be wrong, or not..... but for the sake of argument, I'm going to present what I believe to be true. I of course welcome any discussion on this topic. Remember, my specialty is statistics, my husband is the one with the degree in genetics.

Before we go further, let's ONLY discuss the simple amelanism, rather than getting into different genes for albino. We can muddy the debate later with those other genes.

Okay lets take a simple situation. A snake has TWO chromosomes. Their AA chromosome, and the XX for the male, or XY for the female. If Albinism is sex linked, it is located on the X or on the Y chromosome. If it is on the AA chromosome then it is not sex-linked. Linkage in genes has to do with two genes locted within a certain distance on a specific chromosome and I do not believe that linkage from chromosome to chromosome is something that is discussed. (again, I could be wrong).

So let's introduce some snakes (C is the gene for NORMAL, c is the gene for ALBINO)

Snake 1: Female, heterozygous for albinism Cc
Snake 2: Male, heterozygous for albinism Cc
Snake 3: Female, homozygous for albinism CC
Snake 4: Male, homozygous for albinism CC

Now, if it is a sex-linked trait then the above definitions are actually fallacious, as it would be impossible for the female to be homozygous. I believe, but this is a weak point on my part, that they would be called hemizygous at best.... their one X chromosome, or their one Y chromosome would carry the gene, but the other would not.

Okay, now if Albino is recessive, which I believe has been sufficiently proven by breeding albinos to wild type snakes and getting NO albinos in the clutch, it would follow that only males would be able to display this characteristic. The trait cc would appear on the X chromosome, and only the male would be able to have a pair of those, thus resulting in an albino male.

If it was dominant, or co-dominant, then we would get different phenotypical appearances with an animal with one of the genes, and with two of the genes, and whenever you bred an albino to another snake, you would get a phenotypically obvious difference in some of the offspring. This does not occur to the best of my knowledge, therefore I submit it cannot be a sex-linked characteristic. Thus the gene must be on the AA chromosome.

There probably ARE some phenotype genes that appear on the gender chromosomes. They probably do result in a different phenotype for males versus females. BUT albinism is not one of them.

In general, as far as I know, I would say that if you bred snake 1 and snake 2 enough times, you would eventually see that you get 25% of the offspring are albino, 75% are NOT, and the distribution of gender is random and not attributable to outside influences.

If you bred Snake 1 with snake 4, or Snake 2 with Snake 3, you would expect roughly 50% of the offspring to be albino, again without any bias in distribution of gender.

And if you breed snakes 3 and 4 together, you would expect to get 100% albino.

(Just confirmed with hubby, he says "Linkage groups are on the same chromosome, by definition)

I do agree that there are probably worlds of things to discover if a person can shed their preconceptions and be willing to go out there on a limb. If I had zillions of snakes, I would do a number of experiments, some of which would include:

1. Incubating eggs at specific temperatures, probably using cornsnake eggs, to see if I got any sort of temperature differences. I would especially want to see if there was some temperature that would result in kinked babies.

2. Turning eggs. I would like to see if that would cause "death" as is the main assumption.

3. Kinked parent snakes: is it genetic? I would breed kinked snakes and see if I got kinked babies.

I can't really think of anything else specific at the moment, but I do believe that there is a LOT of things out there that can be proven definitively with any sort of researcher willing to sacrifice some of their hatchlings to questionable incubation techniques.

Oh, and as far as statistics goes, it is essential to have a large enough sample size to eliminate specific variables that can result in improper conclusions. A single male, or a single female, would not be a large enough sample size. I think that I would not accept the results from an experiment that does not include a large enough sample size. I would consider a too-small sample to be merely anecdotal evidence, and would wait for further data to make any sort of conclusion.

Okay, I've blabbed enough. Remember, all good heart. Use the smileys to hte left to make sure to EMOTE so that if you think you're sounding harsh, show "your" face to be sure people realize your meaning.

I had a REALLY hard time following your post. I made a few punnett squares, using males as ZZ and females as WZ (as Clay pointed out... only it might have been males WW and females as WZ). My husband (whose degree is genetics) says that the Y chromosome in males is one that merely determines gender, otherwise it has no function, so if a male human being has an X chromosome with a specific gene, then they express it. I'm not sure about that but he says that in these situations the sex-linkage is on the chromosome shared by both genders. For snakes I've decided that will be Z (it could be W, but what's in a name?). I also changed the C for albinism to A and a for ease of reading, since it was hard to tell the differences between upper and lower case C. I came up with a counter-example, which assumes that the sex-chromosome W is only there for determining gender, and does nothing else, as it is for humans... in which case there is an easy counterexample I've listed at the bottom of my graphic below. My head is spinning with all these letters. If you can present your argument in some sort of punnett square, that will make it easier. I'd also love to hear Clay's input.

It doesn't matter what letters you use as long as the odd pair is MALE!!!!!!!!GET IT RIGHT!!!!!

Click to expand...

Clay stated that it was the other way around with snakes than it is with human beings (or mice). You say it isn't. I really guess we need another person in to add their own information then right?

Clay... where did you learn that it was XY (or whatever) for the FEMALE snakes? Your source seems important here.

Ken, the way that you "spoke" in the above quote. Your yelling (all CAPS, multiple exclamation points) at me, when I'm using information pertinent to this thread that is either within this thread or within the "parent' thread, is not really constructive. So even if I'm wrong and you are right, the counterexample at the bottom of the graphic would still work, just change male and female and you get the same result.

if you fix that wreck you created then you would see you proved my point.........100% male albinos

Click to expand...

Hardly polite. Try for some tact?

Your pointless attempt to play genetic goddess needs to be corrected before you POST.....IF your HUSBAND was WHAT you SAID he WAS you would have seen that I was RIGHT BEFORE YOU USED THOSE OUTDATED PUNNETT SQRS

Click to expand...

Um... are you deliberately trying to be tactless? Or are you deliberately trying to sound like God of KNown Creation here? I don't mind if you think I'm wrong, but you certainly do not need to insult me to assert your different opinion.

ANY 1st year biology student can figure out that after the 2nd gene punnett sqrs are almost USELESS.....we don't use slide rules any more, so move into the 21st century....Get a calculator, down load a Genetics formula and figure the Probability out for your self....

Click to expand...

Um.... as far as I understood, we were discussing ONE, and ONLY ONE gene. And for SIMPLE MENDELIAN genetics one does not need a computer. It is slightly complicated by the fact that we're discussing it being sex linked, and of course there is a difference of opinion on the allocation of chromosomes that determine gender. Probability is simple to figure out in mendelian genetics. One, two, three genes, I've done those, beyond that, it would take me more time than it is worth and I'll pull out my handy dandy genetics whizard on my computer (yes, I DO have one). Remember, when we speak of probabilities, this is MY realm. Biology is NOT my realm. For that I rely on my hubby.

And who told you that the Y chromosome only controls SEX, what you are saying is that all males would look like their mothers, but with facial hair and a wee dangler......(PeePee) If male baldness is passed on then where did the gene come from if the male only passed on the Y........That mans sons would have to be bald.

Click to expand...

What about the other 22 chromosomes? Do they not determine your appearance? You know, the ones you got from your father? By the way, the technical term is PENIS. If you are goign to fllaunt your amazing intellect, please refer to those terms that you can with their technical term, rather than the terms used by 3 year olds. I can take those technical terms, and do know how to look things up that I don't immediately know. It will probably help our discussion as well.

You, your Husband, Clay nor I have all the answers about Genetics....fundimental rules govern theories....and thats it.

Click to expand...

Amen to that.

Shades of Henry Lizardlover!

So Drunkenblade... you said on another thread that you were getting a "Herpetology degree"

You do realize that there's no such thing in the United States, right?

You clearly are unable to comprehend basic english and have shown an amazing depth of ignorance as far as herpetology in general is concerned. You make some really impressive leaps of absolute trash non-logic and arrive at conclusions that can be called naive at best (or would have been had you been polite about it) and bloody stupid at worst (and since you seem to think that insulting Shasheena and anyone else who didn't attend UC Davis, this really is what you clearly are).

Since you're still a student at UC Davis... Who are your professors? Specifically any of them teaching you biology/zoology and ESPECIALLY anyone lecturing you in a herpetology related course or class segment. I really think that someone should have a few words with them about your blatantly poor educational level and general attitude.

The private sector has out produced the institutionalized efforts of zoos, research facilities, universities and government sponsered programs every year for the last three decades when looking at the number of animals successfully produced. This is in terms of sheer volume (number of animals) and variety (number of species). Despite what you may think (with your faulty reasoning and experiences in a sheltered environment as a student) the majority of private individuals do keep accurate records of their breeding and incubation methods. Clearly not all... and clearly there are certain hypothesis which can only be tested with more expensive equipment but... I'm going to go even further than Clay and point out that California kingsnakes have been bred in captivity for well over fifty years by private individuals, zoos, universities and corporate labs. In all that time... with all those animals... with ALL those notes about incubation progress and conditions... You don't think anyone would have noticed if sex determination were a simple matter of incubation temperature?

I mean... leopard geckos are hardly a species that's being widely bred for reasons other than the pet trade and haven't been widely avaliable for anywhere NEAR the duration of time that cal kings have. After captive breeding efforts began, it certainly didn't take long for the temp determination to be discovered, tested and exploited, did it?

Are you REALLY so thick that you think you're the first person to think this *might* be the case and test it?

HAVE you even tested it? You accuse Clay of doublespeak (although by doing show you really only demonstrated your poor reading comprehension) yet yourself show the edges of what I suspect are lies... You could have been breeding animals for so long that you've forgotten what it's like to use homemade incubation devices... And you could be a student at UC Davis... and you could also have been born in 1967 as your profile states... Combine the three and then throw your piss poor attitude and obvious lack of anything regarding logical thought, respect for other people and blatant inexperience with the animals in question though and I think a couple of those (or all) are lies.

Your statements are poorly worded. You blame this on an inability to add inflection and gesture to your written words, which isn't really an acceptable excuse (especially for your last post) but I suppose I can accept it for a moment...

You think that a possibility exists of certain phenotypical traits being directly related to gender?

Well, mystery solved, some are. Size and shape have pretty clear cut genetic tendencies in many species. Congratulations on your discovery, I look forward to seeing the write-up and the response it gets. And hey, look! There are even species which display sexual dimorphism, although the only one coming immediatly to mind is an arboreal colubrid from Madagascar who's name eludes me at the moment. Twig something probably.

Of course if you're stating that the proven recessive strain of albinism in california kingsnakes has a gender linked determination, you're a fool. If it was related to gender then there would be either an incomplete or totally absent expression of it in one gender or the other. Meaning albino x albino breedings could produce animals with normal melanin levels, which simply is not the case. Now... There are multiple ways an animal can display the phenotype of "albino" and multiple points in the melenin production which can be interrupted. If you'd like, you can scour the deserts looking for a mutation which is sex linked but anyone who really had the educational level you claim to would understand the chances of finding something not known to exist.

I do realize that my post here is likely wasted. You've got one of those twisted attitudes where you seem blatantly proud of your inability to read, write or think but someone else might wander along and, while you seem beyond help, they might take something from it.

Ken, you seem to have missed the part where I asked you to present your information in an understandable format. I tried to present my information in an understandable format, and instead of constructive criticism, you just blasted it.

So my word on the subject is that I can't understand your presentation of the subject. Since I have read many a genetics text full of words I don't understand and have been able to understand with some work and some research I don't think it has to do with my own shortcomings.

Since your only attempt to clarify what you originally presented was to attack everyone else, that leads me to believe you cannot present your information in an understandable format.

Good luck with your experiments. I would love to hear your statistics when you have something to report.

Yes, actually, I did read Seamus' response, then emailed him privately to thank him for taking my "side" if there is such a thing.

Good day to you too.

Drukneblade seems to have deleted many of his contributions to this thread. I'm truly sorry I missed them.

I would hope that they contained an apology to Shasheena and Clay for the blatantly rude manner in which they were treated.

I somehow suspect that they were more along the lines of a whiney hypocritical tirade about how "mean" I am, but what else is to be expected from someone of Drunkenblade's character?

I had far more important matters to attend to yesterday and was unable to check in on the thread. At this point any reply at all is fairly useless since Ken decided for whatever reason to remove most everything he said.

To answer Sasheena's question as to my source for the information regarding female snakes having the dissimilar chromosomes.
It's hard to source it exactly, I've never traced it back to the original researcher. I've always considered it a type of "common knowledge" so to speak. It is the same in birds, the females have the dissimilar sex chromosomes. I've seen it mentioned in writings on many occasions, but as an accepted fact and unreferenced.
I do know herpetologically that research was done by Dr. David Chizar and Dr. Hobart Smith. Where exactly they published it I can't say right off, but I came to the knowledge of their work through an interest in parthenogenesis in reptiles, particularly automictic parthenogenesis where the offspring are all male, rather than clones of the female. This is only possible due to the female having dissimilar sex chromosomes.

Since I have no idea what was posted during my absence, I can't adequately respond to much else.
I do remember Ken accusing me of double speak when I stated I felt the exploration of TDSD in cal kings was a waste of effort so I will clarify that point.
I do believe it is a waste of time. I see no possibility of TDSD in kingsnakes to have avoided discovery for this length of time. I also feel that there is no correlation between albinism and gender.
I also stated however, that my opinion as to the validity or usefulness of a project should have no bearing on whether Ken or anyone else decided to undertake the research.
I merely used the fact that I have undertaken research that others felt was foolish to underscore that sentiment.
By all means, if you do feel you can control the gender of kingsnakes by incubation temperature, set yourself to prove it and report your findings.
My personal opinion is and remains that it does not exist in this case. Reptiles which demonstrate TDSD lack sex chromosomes. Snakes simply do not fall into this catagory, since they do have the chromosomes and this determines their sex.
TDSD exists and is well documented in several gecko and other lizard species, as far as I know all crocodilians, and most if not all tortoise species which have been investigated. Snakes however lack even a single instance of TDSD.
While as always it's impossible to make a statement of a complete negative by saying it absolutely does not exist in snakes, I find it at the least to be the remotest of possibilities.

I believe that Drunkenblade felt justified in his posts on here. He attributes his lack of "tact" (for want of a better word) to his newness to the internet.

I do not know what he attributes his lack of conviction in his previously written word to.

As far as I can tell there were no apologies forthcoming on this thread by Drunkenblade.

Never Fear however, I remain UNinjured.

NOW .... onto the topic at hand, Seamus, Clay, what do the two of you think of my graphic? Can you see where I might have gone wrong or not? Even though I think we all agree on the issue, for want of preciseness I'd like to know how my graphic should be modified so that I come the closest possible to representing known facts regarding snakes.

Seamus Hakley

After Printing out a copy of your 2 page reply, I find it necessary to clear up a few things for future readers.

I've already stated that I was a student of Herpetology and that I had retracted the Degree portion of the statement. I also Make NO mention that I was a student at UC Davis, you sir needed to take your own advice and read more clearly, I said I was retreating to a UCD lab. Some of the Greatest minds have come from UCD in the related field, so why not compare all others to them. They are the bench mark we all strive to be!!

Your premiss that there was years of data concening my original topic was what I was questioning... If the Data exists then where is it? The Private sector out producing Institutionalized efforts mearly reflects your ability to use big words. Without Data to back up the years of side line research no conclusions can be made. Temp. links can not be dismissed just because no one has published such links. I never disputed the fact that I maybe chasing ghosts, isn't that the basis for good research? Or can we never challenge the norm?
And it is 3 spieces since the 1890's that have been bred in captivity, so yes I'm sure that if the evidence either way was known then it would be published by now....I just wanted to know where it was!!!!

I posted a Thread that clearly pointed out that there was no significant value to Cal. Kings and that Leopard Geckos were mass produced for the Designer Money! So in retrospect your claim to Temp. linked sexing being exploited in Cal. Kings is laughable at best. More money is to be Made in Designer Leos, because of the wide variety....Where is it in Cal. Kings? just Albinos!!! all the other variations(50/50, striped, aztec, ect) are still at or around $25 for babies....

As far as your muddled threat of me being the first to think of this, once again is laughable. I was merely triing to get info that may or may not have been available....Where did you get that I thought I was the first to bring up the Idea? Is this A case of you not clearly reading what was wrote?

Once again without reading all the info you accuse me of Knocking home made Incubators.....I have clearly stated that I have gone tooooo high tech in my approach to Incubation and that I remembered the time inwhich I had used a Tupperware container and a heat lamp...or did you miss that?

Please don't muddle the post with claims of phenotypical links unrelated to my original thread....Stupidity only points out that there are other such linked evidence...DUH!!!! It was specific to Albinism, not size or shape!

I already stated that there are other factors involved in the albinism trait that I'm not concideing....Mother Nature! It was that I was just triing to make it simple to understand.

As for your attempts to belittle me and Question my intellegence, I have filled out my backgound info and you have not, but I will go a little deeper in your quest and provide you with some additional info for scrutiny:

Degree in Aviation electronics, specializing in Rotor-head aircraft
Degree in Mathematics
Degree in General ED.
Teach and/or Tutor Math and Chemistry at the college level
VP of my College
President of Vet Tech association
Founder of a Reptile Breeding Ass.
2005 will finish degrees in Vet. tech...Reptile Research as the goal
My list of academic awards is quite long and boring.
Honour role
Deans List......Blah , Blah, Blah.......

Come on, how many research trips have you been on that were fully funded?


Seamus, Your opinions are on the internet, I can hardly respect someone that has so many Warnings filed against him.

The World is looking at 2 fools and laughing......Who will out play whom.....

And who really cares? Monday we will all go back to our regular lives anyway...

It has been a great escape from finals for me and I am truely sorry if I offended Sasheena. I would have Liked to have a chance at posing genetics problems to her hubby.....he does work in genetics.

Remember This all started with Clay, so thanks for nothing Clay!

J. I. C.

Seamus Hakley
After Printing out a copy of your 2 page reply, I find it necessary to clear up a few things for future readers.

I've already stated that I was a student of Herpetology and that I had retracted the Degree portion of the statement. I also Make NO mention that I was a student at UC Davis, you sir needed to take your own advice and read more clearly, I said I was retreating to a UCD lab. Some of the Greatest minds have come from UCD in the related field, so why not compare all others to them. They are the bench mark we all strive to be!!

Your premiss that there was years of data concening my original topic was what I was questioning... If the Data exists then where is it? The Private sector out producing Institutionalized efforts mearly reflects your ability to use big words. Without Data to back up the years of side line research no conclusions can be made. Temp. links can not be dismissed just because no one has published such links. I never disputed the fact that I maybe chasing ghosts, isn't that the basis for good research? Or can we never challenge the norm?
And it is 3 spieces since the 1890's that have been bred in captivity, so yes I'm sure that if the evidence either way was known then it would be published by now....I just wanted to know where it was!!!!

I posted a Thread that clearly pointed out that there was no significant value to Cal. Kings and that Leopard Geckos were mass produced for the Designer Money! So in retrospect your claim to Temp. linked sexing being exploited in Cal. Kings is laughable at best. More money is to be Made in Designer Leos, because of the wide variety....Where is it in Cal. Kings? just Albinos!!! all the other variations(50/50, striped, aztec, ect) are still at or around $25 for babies....

As far as your muddled threat of me being the first to think of this, once again is laughable. I was merely triing to get info that may or may not have been available....Where did you get that I thought I was the first to bring up the Idea? Is this A case of you not clearly reading what was wrote?

Once again without reading all the info you accuse me of Knocking home made Incubators.....I have clearly stated that I have gone tooooo high tech in my approach to Incubation and that I remembered the time inwhich I had used a Tupperware container and a heat lamp...or did you miss that?

Please don't muddle the post with claims of phenotypical links unrelated to my original thread....Stupidity only points out that there are other such linked evidence...DUH!!!! It was specific to Albinism, not size or shape!

I already stated that there are other factors involved in the albinism trait that I'm not concideing....Mother Nature! It was that I was just triing to make it simple to understand.

As for your attempts to belittle me and Question my intellegence, I have filled out my backgound info and you have not, but I will go a little deeper in your quest and provide you with some additional info for scrutiny:

Degree in Aviation electronics, specializing in Rotor-head aircraft
Degree in Mathematics
Degree in General ED.
Teach and/or Tutor Math and Chemistry at the college level
VP of my College
President of Vet Tech association
Founder of a Reptile Breeding Ass.
2005 will finish degrees in Vet. tech...Reptile Research as the goal
My list of academic awards is quite long and boring.
Honour role
Deans List......Blah , Blah, Blah.......

Come on, how many research trips have you been on that were fully funded?


Seamus, Your opinions are on the internet, I can hardly respect someone that has so many Warnings filed against him.

The World is looking at 2 fools and laughing......Who will out play whom.....

And who really cares? Monday we will all go back to our regular lives anyway...

It has been a great escape from finals for me and I am truely sorry if I offended Sasheena. I would have Liked to have a chance at posing genetics problems to her hubby.....he does work in genetics.

Remember This all started with Clay, so thanks for nothing Clay!

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Drunkenblade said:

Remember This all started with Clay, so thanks for nothing Clay!

Click to expand...

Yeah, yeah, it's all my fault. You read my first post in the other thread, apparently only bothering to actually read every 3rd or 4th word, completely miss the point, then add in a bunch of things I never said then proceed to start another completely useless thread about it and it's my fault.

Interestingly I have enough confidence in what I said that I do not feel compelled to delete it all to prevent anyone else from reading it.
I do find it humorous that after deleting all your dialogue, you proceed to refer back to it and complain that Seamus wasn't reading it clearly and claim you want to clear up a few things for future readers. Deleting your entire side of the discussion sure went a long way toward clearing everything up as well haha.

Just for the potential benefit of others, I did happen to have one of his posts in the cache of another browser that hadn't been cleared.
This was from what was the original first page of this thread.

Originally posted by Drunkenblade
New Day
Thanks for the link, like I said before I new to this format and hope to figure it out soon.

One of the biggest problems we face is that EXACT phrasing and punctuation gets lost when sending E-mails or threads. The fault is not ours, but that facial expressions, a laugh or raised I brow are hard to relay through the computer. Our exact inferences are lost to interpratation through miles of cable connection.

Point By Point:
1. Clay, I know you are refering to Snakes, Kings or Cal Kings.
2. I do not believe sex is determined at Fertilization in Snakes.
3. You stated several times that no snake spieces exhibits temp. related sex determination.
4. Why don't you get the possible potential if there is a link between sex and Albinism.
5. 25-30 years, actually I had either sent the post or was writing the post before I completally read yours....I formally retract those statements and accept your clarification....this was a perfect example of inferences I stated before...my Bad.
6. Clay, you did it again...you say that my research is a "Wasted Effort", and in the same paragraph say that " your own research has been deemed foolish, but you still go on." I find it hard to continue when you consistantly DOUBLE talk.
7. Sasheena....brings it all together as a mediator, but Phenotype is not what I'm Specifically looking at, yes Albino is the Phenotype....Albinism is the allele I'm looking far as a linked Sex Chromosome. Lets not get those mixed up, both important , but not exactly the problem.
8. Sasheena...Albino Parents only gives a higher Satistical probability for Albino offspring....Genetically linked traits are the focus, Mutations of a trait or ressesive traits are once again a small fraction of the problem. Significant, YES, but not the focus. I also reserve the right to change my oppinion on that given proper Scientific evidence.
9. Sasheena, your large population theory will only Statically muddle the information. Small defined populations with stricked controls will isolate gene ID at a quiker rate. Utalizing Pairing for life or trait possesive Kings will prove or disprove allele dispersion faster and with a more difinative outcome. In the case of known Phenotypes this will also speed up the results, but not conclusively. The resesive allele is what I'm looking at as a Possible link to sex. If you think about it, if I put 2 normal Kings together and after breeding find that out of 10 clutches approx. 100 offspring that, being that I was fortunate to get 50 males and 50 females, that all the males were the desired phenotype, Albino. Would you not conclude that it was sex related? LOOK, I know this is Hypothetical. Would you not also conclude that the Male parent had the Albinism allele.

What I'm getting at is, And I hope Clay is understanding me By now, is that IF it was possible to find a Sex Linked trait would you not then try to determine sex to exploite the trait? In the case of Reptiles there is overwhelming evidence that points towards Temp. as the factor that controls Sex......Clay you keep saying that no one has documented this relationship in SNAKES...I can't dispute this, but how many other things in this world are discovered that we knew nothing about 25 years ago.

Ken

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I always find that any logical discussion of genetics is wonderful! The great thing is that any person who CARES about it will do their best to educate others who have an imperfect understanding of the basics of genetics, and then go on to try to explain in a manner that makes sense. So for the merit of a GOOD discussion on genetics, I think I'm glad we discussed it, as I've learned a number of things about snakes I did not know before.

Clay I agree with you about the deletion of the messages. All that demonstrates is a lack of confidence in the previous arguments. But everyone is entitled to their own foibles.

Thanks for sharing what you had in your cache.

Well I asked some pertinent questions on another forum, and i'm posting one of the responses I received here... it will include the questions I asked. I'll put my questions in bold, and the responses in italics:

On another forum a debate has arisen. SEveral of the questions have me wanting to verify some of the things I know, and also find out some of the things I don't know.

Someone there said that snakes have W and Z chromosomes instead of X and Y chromosomes like humans as their gender determining chromosomes. Does anyone know if the gender determining chromosomes in snakes have been officially named?

It was also mentioned that in snakes females have a WZ (two different gender-determining chromosomes) and that males have ZZ, which is exactly opposite of humans. Does anyone know if this is true and can you cite references if possible?

I've seen snake gender chromosomes referred to as Z and W in several papers. I'd have to dig around a little to find some. The university library has an atlas of karyotypes (chromosomes) from a variety of species that includes some snakes. I can post that reference in a day or two.

The gender chromosomes in most birds are Z and W, and colubrid snakes follow the same pattern. Boid snakes do not seem to have sex-determining chromosomes of different sizes. I don't know about other families of snakes.

Another item for discussion is temperature-related sex-determination. Have there been any formal (or informal) studies to determine that temperature does NOT effect the genders of the babies? I would love to hear of any studies informal or formal that go to proving or disproving this.

I know of one formal study where northern pine snakes were incubated at a variety of temperatures, but I don't think the sexes of the babies were recorded. Have to hunt that up.

Finally: Albinism. This question relates specifically to California Kingsnakes (though I'm sure that the answers for this question would relate to all kingsnakes, and perhaps all north american colubrids, if not all snakes everywhere)... Is it possible that albinism is a sex-linked trait in California Kingsnakes? Can anyone give me a logical argument using mendelian genetics (or any other way) that is clear and concise about why it COULD NOT be sex-linked? (or if they have an argument that is clear and concise as to how it could be sex-linked, I would love to hear about that too)

I have never bred California kings, so I can't give you a positive answer. But here is an argument for why amelanistic is not sexlinked in corn snakes. You can use the same reasoning for kings:

1) The Z (or mammallian X) chromosome is much longer than the W (or mammalian Y) chromosome. Generally a sexlinked locus refers to a locus on the Z (or X) chromosome that is not paired in the W (or Y) chromosome.

2) A female MUST show the effect of a mutant gene that is sexlinked in her single Z chromosome.

3) A male shows the effect of a mutant gene if the mutant is recessive to the normal allele and is homozygous for the mutant allele. This is true for both sexlinked and autosomal loci in males. As amelanistic corns can be produced by mating two normally colored snakes, amelanistic must be a recessive mutant gene.

4) Theoretical results of crosses if amelanistic is a recessive mutant. Symbols--W = female chromosome, a = amelanistic on Z chromosome, A = normal allele on Z chromosome.

Male homozygous amelanistic (aa) x female normal (AW) -->
1/2 Aa = male normal (heterozygous for amelanistic)
1/2 aW = female amelanistic

ALL the amelanistics from this cross MUST be female.

5) Actual results of a male amelanistic corn x a female normal corn: all babies, both male and female, are normal. (Source: Bern Bechtel's original cross of an amelanistic male corn x female normal corn. Same results in a mating of my corn snakes.) Therefore, the amelanistic locus in corns is not sexlinked.

If the same results come from a Cal king mating, then you can rule out sexlinkage.

Paul Hollander

Here are a couple of sources for snake karyotypes:

Baker, Robert J., Greg A. Mengden, and James J. Bull. 1972. Karyotype studies of thirty-eight species of North American snakes. Copeia 1972: 257-265.

Benirschke, Kurt, and T. C. Hsu. Chromosome atlas: fish, amphibians, reptiles and birds. Springer-Verlag, New York. 3 vol, 1971-1975.

The Baker, et al., paper is probably the best for the purposes of this thread as it contains the Lampropeltis karyotype. The W chromosome is nearly as big as the Z chromosome, so testing for partial sexlinkage may be more productive than testing for complete sexlinkage.

BTW, I understand that there are two forms of albino in California kings. Then there is what I've heard called ruby eyed. Will all of them be tested for sexlinkage? Whatever, AFAIK there is a woeful lack of genetics information available on Cal kings. I'd be interested in any pointers to web sites, etc.

Thanks for the information Paul.

I do believe that any information/research into genetics is going to be fabulous. I love mouse genetics due to their simplicity, but I really enjoy snake genetics because of their complexity also. I'm especially interested in the Cal King genetics.

While I'm not rabidly pro or con towards hybridization, I think that sometimes the ability to cross species lines helps us to learn about the genes also.

For example, albinism (simple albinism, not the Lavender albino or any other albino).... Since an albino kingsnake mated to an albino cornsnake results in all albino offspring, wouldn't that result in the conlcusion that if albino was sex-linked in one, it would be sex-linked in the other? Otherwise they would not line up and you would not get albino babies.

One of my interesting "experiments" is a complete wild type cal king bred to a several generations "designer" cal king, who is mostly white with just some black stripe left over. It will be very interesting to see what I get... my guess is that I will get almost all aberrant.