internet sale of tortoise: fraud???

Hi everyone,

I live in Singapore and I'm looking for respectable star tortoise breeders from whom I can purchase one tortoise to be delivered to Germany as a birthday gift.

Been doing alot of Internet research and someone called Kojo Norris from Reptilexotica Ltd replied to an ad I placed. He wants to sell me one star tortoise for US$400 and he says he will include an enclosure, tortoise literature and food for an additional US$100. Apparently he is the cheif marketing officer in his company, which is based in London, with farms in Nigeria and Madagascar. He has asked me to make payment by Western Union.

I need your help. Naturally, I am very worried that this may be yet another Internet scam. Has anyone heard of or dealt with Kojo Norris or Retilexotica Ltd? He provided a website link:
http://www.freewebs.com/reptilexotica/index.htm

Would someone out there please assist me? Further, if anyone knows good tortoise breeders in Germany, would they kindly forward to me their contact details? I can't seem to find any!

Thank you,
Brenda

In my opinion there's two possibilities here.
1. It's simple fraud and if you sent him any money you will never get anything at all.
2. He is selling illegally collected tortoises and claiming they are farmed.

Either possibility is likely, but I would put my money on the first.
Either way I am skeptical of his statements.
Payment by western union is a common tactic in the scams.
I saw on their site that they have farms and "outlets" in various places on the African continent but ship via Express mail or Airborne Express.
I also find it quite unusual that he would be offering an enclosure for an extra charge with an international sale. That's the first time I've ever heard of an international animal dealer offering cages with the animal.

I could be completely wrong, and they could be a legitimate company, but it looks quite odd to me.
Regardless, the commercial farming of Indian stars on anything but a small private scale is non existant, while the illegal trade in wild caught stars is commonplace. At the least, even if they are an actual company, I would be extremely suspicious of the origins of any stars they may have.

Personally I would not consider doing any business with them whatsoever. Even without all the other suspicious aspects, the mere mention of Nigeria is enough to keep me away considering that is the world headquarters for internet scams.

Reputable Star Tortoise Breeders?

Thanks for the reply, Clay. Did you get the separate email that I sent you? Thought I posted my response on this thread, but I may have mistakenly sent you a personal email instead.

Meanwhile I am still trying to find a good star tortoise breeder. Does anyone know of any respectable and trustworthy tortoise breeder in Germany or elsewhere (but they must be able to deliver to Germany)?

Cheers,
Brenda

Hi Brenda,

Glad you took my advise on taking this inquiry here on the BOI as well for others opinions. I hope you save your money & grief.

Hi Steve,

"A fool and his money are soon parted."

Because of you and the kind advice of other decent people out there, thank God the above statement will not occur in my case! I've finally decided not to go ahead.

Still trying to find a German breeder in the meantime. Didn't expect it to be *that* difficult! *mumble grumble*

Best Wishes,
Brenda

they sure have alot of herps for the americas, for an african company. i meen tons of desert and spiny igguanas. yellow foots? no spur thighs? adult leopard torts? aquatic african turtles and frogs? i meen if there all over africa you would like they would of tons of native stuff for sale.

I think I found someone who looks legit!!!

Hi guys,

I think I have someone respectable. From what I can tell, they are a Parisian company selling all kinds of reptiles & herps, including stars (indian and burmese). If you don't mind, could you take a look at their link, and tell me what you think?

The link: http://www.lafermetropicale.com

Problem is, the entire site is in French. My French is poor, so I've only been able to translate a few sentences here and there. Am keeping my fingers crossed that one of you can assist...

FYI I am dealing with one Karim Daoues, who claims to have a trio for sale (1 male and 2 females, please see attachment). He/she says that they can be sold separately without any problem. The animals are apparently 9 cm long and about 3 years old (Clay, didn't you say that older animals are probably illegally captured from the wild). The public price has been quoted at 550 euros, but the discounted price is 400 euros each.

The reason why I'm so excited is because these French guys are a contact of a friend of mine, who is the managing director of a very successful chain of pet stores (animals, animal supplies and pet services) in Asia. He is totally legit, so I assume that his suppliers must be legit too. Of course this may not be the case, but my friend is a reliable person, so I trust him.

Or am I being naive again???

Please deliver the verdict: to buy, or not to buy?

(If I go ahead and something screws up, rest assured I know I have no one to blame but myself!)

Thanks,
Brenda

I consider any larger stars to be potentially wild caught. The smuggling trade in this species is fairly extensive.
The fact that this is a legitimate dealer does not mean that his suppliers are. As I mentioned in our emails, bogus CITES papers are commonly forged for shipments originating out of Africa. Regardless, if these papers were accepted, then the dealer remains legitimate technically. The fact is many dealers simply don't care about the true origin of their animals as long as their paperwork is in order.

This operation being a known dealer, you can probably safely order a tortoise from them but the liklihood remains high that it will be a wild caught specimen.
Unless your friend in Germany is an experienced tortoise keeper , it's quite probable that the tortoise will die within a year or two from failure to acclimate.

Just when I thought...

Received a reply from the French company. Karim says he's the boss, and was quite rude (thought my questions were silly; I probably offended him with my ignorance!). Anyway, it seems they're a well-established company, the largest reptile traders in Paris.

The bad news: they don't export (although he implied he would be able to, if i'm willing to bear the high cost of delivery). He was also very straightforward and said that stars are not beginners' pets. This is in line with what Clay says about stars dying in captivity within only 1 - 2 years.

Hm. I am quite disillusioned at the moment.

I may still purchase some sort of pet from them, provided they can deliver to Germany. Clay, which reptile/herp can be considered a 'beginner's pet'? It should be relatively low-maintenance, stay small in size, and be able to flourish in Germany's temperate climate.

Feel free to recommend lizards too. My top choice was actually a chameleon, but I read that they're not good for starters too. I thought tortoises would be tougher than lizards, so I started looking for a herp. Now it seems they're both delicate. Argh.

There are other tortoises that would be suitable. Greeks and Herman's for instance. Both are European tortoises.
I'm not particularly in favor of giving tortoises as a gift in many cases however. They are truly long term commitments. If your friend has a strong interest in tortoises then this is fine, but your looking at a type of reptile that will easily live 40+ years if cared for properly, so they're not a pet to be entered into lightly, and not one I would surprise someone with.

There are a couple of lizard species that would be great though. Two that come to mind first are bearded dragons and dwarf monitors of the Acanthurus genus. German breeders were pioneers in establishing both of these species in captivity, so locating a German breeder should be much easier than finding a German tortoise breeder.
I have kept both of these lizards myself and they make wonderful captives without being too demanding.

These lizards are hot desert species, but Germany's climate wouldn't be a problem since they are maintained indoors anyway in suitable habitats.

A lizard was my first choice

Clay, your last email has brought me fresh hope!

In fact, my first choice was a lizard, but somewhere along the way, my attention detoured towards tortoises. Yes, I considered the fact that most tortoises will outlive one's grandchildren, but that too, was the appeal. I didn't want a pet to kick the reptile bucket after a few short years. And I read that chameleons (my initial choice) don't last for very long.

The lizards you recommended are beautiful, especially the bearded dragon. Really nice, those guys. And your comment that they should be quite easy to find in Germany is very encouraging. But I'm still faced with the task of finding people in Germany.

So far, every potential vendor seems to be located everywhere else in the world except Germany. Of course that's ridiculous. There MUST be someone in Germany, but why is it so difficult to locate them???

Maybe I'm not searching dilligently/wisely enough, or looking in the wrong places.

Whatever it is, you guys have been a most valuable resource to have, and I look forward to your continued support!

Warm Wishes,
Brenda

I found a German vendor!

Hello again,

The link is: http://www.ms-reptilien.de

They have a very limited selection of animals. I'm interested in either the chameleon or the other lizard. I have attached pictures of these creatures since the website only offers names of animals in German. Can you identify them?

Which one do you think is best? Again, I'm looking for the tougher breed.

I know I'm acting like a typical, excited female here, but do you think I should pause for a moment, and continue searching? If not, I am quite ready to buy a lizard from these guys.

Thanks!
Brenda

Chameleon Mugshot

Here is the picture of the chameleon.