CBB Ambilobe

Personality plus! This is Woodrow.

SWEET!

Nice ambilobe, Gotta have one sooner or later! Nice cham man, two thumbs up. -Eric Lago *MS Reptilian Hobbyists*
http://msreptilianhobbyists.fabpage.com

.....

All I can do when I see that guy is DROOL!!!! Very very nice. You are lucky!

Woodrow is one of my favorites! He still on the young side but as he develops he is becoming a showstopper!

Dennis

ohh yeah I am drooling too! That guy is just perfect!

Dennis,
Do you have any other pictures of this animal? As colored here, this is a locale hybrid, and while he may have some Ambilobe blood in him, he's got a lot of something else too. Have you ever seen a WC Ambilobe even remotely close to this color pattern? I have unpacked approximately 200 imported Ambilobe males in the last 3 years, and never seen anything resembling this. As hybrids go, he has amazing color ..... but Ambilobe? Sorry, but not this one. Your other pictured "Picasso" is a true Ambilobe, though.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company

Jim then your basically telling me that your partner Ivan ripped me off! Anything for a buck huh? Ivan sold me this chameleon last year, telling me he was the last male offspring from Cyclops. What you are saying though isn't a surprise to me as I have heard this before.

Dennis Scott

I this really sounds like Ivan owes me some money since I specifically asked for offspring from Cyclops. I would think with your relationship with Ivan you would know him best and given your reputation I tend to trust you more then most. So if you are saying my male is a hybrid as have others when this past couple months then i must have been ripped off. I have the reciepts and pictuces of this guy from the day he arrived.

Dennis Scott

Dennis,
I believe that what I said was quite clear. But if you had already heard that this animal was not of clear heritage by its appearance, why not make a note of correction, rather than leave the picture there as orifginally labeled? As to where you may have gotten the animal, that is between you and the provider. And lastly, you draw inferences as to who my "partners" are not based on anything I have said, or my company has said. I have heard others mention your name, both in text and in conversation, in conjunction with the names of others, and I do not assign these people to be your partners. If you have scores to settle with others, then that is a matter for you and them. I do not like it when others invoke my name, or that of my company, in order to curry some favor, or as a jab in a feud. But it will happen. What seems to be in agreement here is that you have a picture posted of an "Ambilobe", the lineage of which is certainly dubious, by its appearance. You did not obtain this animal from me or my business, or bloodlines that my business has ever claimed to represent. We have all obtained juvenile panther chameleons reported to be of pedigree lineage, or females likewise, only to find out that they were not. I do not excuse the practice, and work quite diligently to insure the veracity of my bloodlines. That is a significantly greater, but separate, issue from the posting of a picture with an inaccurate locale identification.
Dennis, I have seen occasional post of animals for sale by you, and wish you nothing but the best in your pursuits with panther chameleons, or any other business venture. I would hope that you are able to sell all of your offspring at premium prices, as that would bode well for all who aspire to sell chameleons. But you have made innacurate statements about me and my business in forums in the past, as you did here. In my original post, and now this one, I am not going to pull the names of others into it, as it is only about a picture of a hybrid misidentified as being a locale pedigree. Again, I wish you well in your business ventures.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company

Hey Dennis,
I only just saw your second reply, and did not include mention of it in the above post. For you, and all others who might view this thread, I would encourage attempts to make some recovery where a premium price was paid for a locale pedigree offspring that is now maturing as something else. In any case though, the timeliness of the claim is very important. I would recommend to all who may ever find themselves in such a situation to 1) Obtain in writing, at time of sale, an agreement as to the authenticity of the animal, and a plan for remedy if the animal is not authentic in locale; 2) contact the seller as soon as they have reason for concern, and document with pictures; and 3) pursue the matter in a timely fashion. As we all know, the BOI can be an excellent place to air legitimate complaints that one is unable to resolve by any reasonable prior means. Again, I cannot vouch for anything with regards to where this animal came from, or the lineage involved. I will, however, bring this thread to the attention of others over the holiday weekend, but I am not part of the solution here. I hope that all other projects are going well.

Jim

Jim when i say i have heard this before what I meant was when i was selling this chameleon i recieved a threatening email saying this wasn't an ambilobe and if i didn't remove the ad " I would be exposed". I just disregarded the email as the next 5 were from people saying they wanted him and where to send their money. Am I unhappy with the chameleon I recieved? No but i am very disappointed that i didn't get what i payed for especially since I spent three months emailing Ivan back and forth stating EXACTLY what i wanted and was willing to wait as long as it took to get it.
As for Ivan being one of your business partners, I have been told twice now that he and and another person close to Ivan were part owners with you. I heard that directly from the third person( I don't want to bring his name into it as he isn't involved with this thread) and the last time was only a few weeks ago. I don't have ANY scores to settle with anyone involved OR and have made it very clear that the petty games being played were not why i got involved with chameleons in the first place. I don't mind competion at all but the BS that has been going on is just plain childish. Anyway so far so good with my projects, were just about half way there.

Happy Thankgiving
Dennis Scott

Here are more picture of this chameleon:
http://community.webshots.com/album/114993664UMCZvn
http://community.webshots.com/album/150754544lBgEcp
http://community.webshots.com/album/206893444edSBXs

Dennis Scott

Dennis,
Thanks for sharing the pictures. I wish that I could say that, in my opinion, he might be full-blooded Ambilobe, but he is just too far off the mark. Tremendous color though.
As for the partnership issues, it is a term not to be used loosely. My company is a Florida Limited Liability Company (LLC), registered with the Secretary of State here, which is a small business structure which allows for member shareholders, and is run by a Managing Member (or Members), all in accordance with Florida Statutes and an Operating Agreement unique to our Company, along with other documents. This type of business structure is recognized, with minor differences, in all 50 states. If an entity were to buy a share in my company, they would be a shareholder, and I suppose could accurately call themselves a part owner. It would be a stretch though, as how would you consider someone who told you "my Daddy is a part owner of Microsoft", when in fact they owned a share. For the record, my brother and I are the Managing Members here, owning title to over 75% of the shares. Only he and I can legally speak for our Company, as we are the only officers of the Company. I don't believe that I am splitting hairs here, as wouldn't there seem to be some contradiction in someone saying "I'm a partner, but I can't speak for the Company"? Too often, the label "partner" is used when maybe "friend" would be more accurate. I am not responsible for the actions or business dealings of my friends, nor are they responsible for the same by me. For the record, I do not reveal who my shareholders are, but I am certain that while you may have spoken with those who may be entertaining thoughts of buying a share or two, they have not. I will say that I have no shareholders west of the Mississippi, so take all you hear with a grain of salt. But shareholders do not qualify as a partners. That said, my Company, under my guidance, has participated in breeding loans and collaborations with other entities out there. That also does not make them a partner in my Company .... only in that specific project.
I have had several very successful breeding collaborations with Dr. Alfonso. He is a good friend, and my herd veterinarian. He wrote extensively in the Journal of the Chameleon Information Network back in its day, and has provided an enormous amount of free veterinary advice in many arenas. He has produced many quality offspring, and has admirers within the chameleon community on several continents. I have no knowledge of his transactions with you, and is a matter for you to address with him. I appreciate somewhat that everyone wants to be my "partner", but unless you're an old high school flame that can still bring it, stay home !!
Thanks again for your kind words. I too do not like being caught up in the feuds of others. You have some quality animals, and I hope things go well with you and them. Best of the holidays also.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company

im sorry guys but i dont think mythical chameleon would of sold you that hybrid. they even say that that chameleon is the best in projectpardalis collection.

Lance,
I confess to being a little perplexed by it all myself. First off, I have very little knowledge of Dennis' animals, except for those occcasional times when I see a classified post by him. On those few occasions, I have seen pretty animals. I cannot add anything to your comment that this animal is the best in his collection, as I am certainly not in a position to know. It does cause me to pause a bit, and maybe even shake my head, when I see a first reply to my observation about pedigree lineage saying "Jim, then you are basically telling me that your partner Ivan ripped me off" ... "he owes me money, etc", followed by later posts that he was happy with the animal, received offers when it was offered for sale, etc. Anecdotal information has it that the animal sold for more than Dennis paid for it .... is this the case Dennis, as I do not know, but only have what I have gleaned from past threads in Fauna? I will be the first to agree with you that if it didn't color up as expected, and that this either figured into your decision to sell (if that's the case), or made it harder to sell, you should be disappointed. But the links to the juvenile pictures that you included in this thread do show an animal that I must admit looks like it could fall under the umbrella of being an Ambilobe. In the end, it did not color up as such, and it would rank as one of those cases in panther chameleons where the "show isn't over until the fat lady sings". But to make such harsh accusations that "I've been ripped off" .... well, in light of some of the information swirling out there, could you explain where the loss occurred? Judging from the juvenile pictures, and your comments Lance, I don't think that there was any intent to "rip off". If the purchaser (Dennis) can somehow describe himself as "happy", and others comment that it is a "best in collection" (not the words of the owner), I at least think that the "ripped off by your partner" is an unfortunate characterization, and maybe was a bit hasty, in more ways than one. Since such an accusation was made, and there is evidence of a prior paper trail on the disposition of this animal outside of this thread, could you shed some light on it Dennis? Did you sell it? For a profit? How much, since you were "ripped off"? Did you already make a timely claim with the person from whom you purchased it? What happened? Being "ripped off" is a serious claim ..... would you like to transfer all of this to the BOI? As you know, with this thread, and another in the BOI earlier, I now see your name linked with erroneous, if not outright false, assumptions, at least with regard to my business, and yet there had never been any prior communication between you and my business prior to this thread. Now these accusations, all stemming from me pointing out to you a mis-identification which you already suspected, if not agreed with fully. Help me out here, and enlighten us all, please.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

Here is a clarification the comment "...best out of our collection". I believe that comment was made by one person one time online( I've heard it a couple times offline from the same person). whether it's true or not we have and have had some very nice animals. It is true i have sold this chameleon for more then I bought him for but i hardly see it as a profit. It's my belief that like a car you will never get out of an animal what you have put in. Out of the last breeders I sold I was able to most of them for for 2-3x what I paid for them. this chameleon in this thread was never going to be sold but at the time i thoguht if someone is williong to pay wnat i ask then i will sell. I WAS FLOORED WITH THE RESPONSE I GOT ONLY 8 HOURS AFTER I LISTED HIM! I have stated already I am/was very happy with this chameleon's color,dispostion, and the way he was turning out, he honestly was a family favorite. What i am not happy with is that I supposedly didn't get what i paid for, which was a male from Cyclops. It is my understanding that cyclops is pure unless you or someone else knows different. I don't want a crossbred chameleon. It kind of makes me wonder now though. The sales reciept I was sent didn't have who the sire was on it and I had to call Ivan to get a revised sales slip that had the lineage on it. Althought i know what i have gotten my chameleons from I still keep a file with all the sales slips and anything relevent to my chameleons. This was actually the first time I hadn't gotten a "complete" sales slip and only considered it a minor oversight because of Ivan's sterling reputation.
Jim as far as any thread that I has brought up your name I maybe wrong but I am pretty sure I have never brought up chamco or your name until you posted to this picture. I have made it very clear as well with peole in the over "camp" and my own "side" that i don't want to be apart opf the childish games anymore. I won't be part of them anymore period. It has and will go nowhere and is not a good represention of the chameleon community or myself and my partner. i got into chamelons to learn a thing or two and have a good time doing it and until the last few months I was doing exactly that. did i make a claim with Ivan concerning the correct locale of this chameleon? No I didn't. Numbr one I have already sold him and second I haven't had an impartial second opinion concerning this chameleon until your post. Quite honestly when I first read your post I thoguth it was another stab at our breeding stock. you have made it pretty clear though what stand is with those that have called you a partner. It does sound to me like you are talking to the people I ahve talked to and I am confident he will tell you the same as I have said in this thread. I have spent a couple hours on the phone with him and have had always been straight with him. I don't see any need to take this too the BOI as i am sure it would go the same way as the others. Frankly I am tired of my name and the Companies I am associated with being dragged down just for the sake of name calling I have made this clear to both "sides".

Dennis Scott

For the record, this post was sent to me by another party.
It was not sent to me by Dennis Scott. I have a interest in
this as well. Ivan Alfonso sold me a Cyclops daughter.
I saw three baby chameleons in a cage, while I was at Ivan
Alfonso's house in Sept of 03. There was one male and two
females. He told me that they were sired by Cyclops, and that
the W/C female was a Ambilobe that was loaned to him for
for breeding from The Chameleon Company. I expected the female
to be a PURE Ambilobe. To this day, I will assume that he
sold me EXACTLY what I paid for. I have retained ALL documentation of the transaction, including correspondence
with Ivan. I believe that the male sold to Dennis, is indeed
a hybrid. I have a clutch incubating, that is about to hatch anyday. The female daughter that I bought was named
Cyclone, and she was bred with a very nice Ambilobe male
that died a few weeks after the breeding. He had mouth
rot when he was imported, and it was so advanced that he
could not be saved. The importer told me about his condition
before he shipped him to me. At any rate, I bred him to Cyclone.
It was his ONLY breeding, and I photographed the breeding.
It can be viewed on KS. I sold the female latter, for less than
I paid for her. The other owner also bred her to one of his
males. If for some reason she was not a PURE Ambilobe, sired
by Cyclops, and a PURE w/c Ambilobe female, then I will pursue
this in court. Dr. Alfonso, as well as others may not be partners
in the Chameleon Company, LLC., but they are definately AGENTS.
There is TONS of documentation to this fact, on both this forum
and others. In otherwords, you are responsible for your agents
actions, even if you are a LLC. I am very familiar with the laws
regarding LLC, LTD, Sub Chapter S Corps, and Corps. I own two
companies myself, and have both patent lawyers, and corporate
lawyers. My company Legend Labs, LTD paid for the chameleon
from Dr. Alfonso. Jim, I suggest that you contact your attorney
before shrugging all of the actions of the past SEVERAL months
off. I can assure you that I have consulted mine, and I don't think
you want to go there. In the meantime, you may want to put
your agents out west on a SHORT leash. I did not start this war,
but I will be more than willing to finish it!

Lane Gergely
Legendcham

Dennis,
Thank you for the longer explanation, and the light it sheds on some of the concerns that I raised. After reading it though, while I understand your concern that you may not have received what you hoped was a pedigree locale animal, I can't see support in your own explanation for your earlier characterization of being "ripped off and owed money". From what I have learned of the disposition of the animal in the last 12 hours, and from looking at the juvenile pictures, I believe that the seller, Dr. Alfonso, had every belief that he was selling you a pedigree animal. I also believe that he took some extra steps to provide medical assistance to the person to whom you sold it to, free of charge, for a minor medical condition with an eye that arose from it being shipped after you sold it. Pretty good follow-up, it would seem. I do appreciate some of the clarifications, and without knowing about much about what has gone on elsewhere, I am sure that there have been frustrations. My original post was not part of any plan, and I had no knowledge of any of the prior history with this animal.

And to the goofball ........ watch out for the black helicopters this Thanksgiving Day.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company

Here we go again!

Hi everyone and let me start by wishing you all have a Happy Thanksgiving next to your loved ones.

Dennis Scott:

Here are some points to consider. If you look at the pics I sent you before selling the chameleon to you and the pics you took thereafter, you can see that the chameleon has all the markings of a pure Ambilobe. It has light green/pale yellow background, blue bars, red legs and tail and a pinkish spine. When I sold you the animal it was an Ambilobe by all the physical traits. Did you want me to hold the chameleon for you until he colored up the way he did and then tell you my opinion? How many animals do you see online being sold as Ambanjas, Tamataves, etc. and they don't look like the textbook example? Jim has unpacked a ton of Ambilobes and never seen one like that but guess what, he never saw an animal like Anubis either. Does that make everything unusual a hybrid? I don't think so. Jim and I talk a lot and we have mutual interests but, although I have a breeding partnership with The Chameleon Company, I am not a partner and the person you talk to uses the term "partner" a little too loose. You can have interests in AT&T but you are not a partner, right? Think about it for a minute and maybe you'll finally understand. For the record, I still think that animal is an Ambilobe because I have not seen a baby hybrid yet that starts his life looking exactly like a locale pure animal and then turns into a "hybrid". Am I right or wrong? I don't know but I tell you what I think.

Ms. Gergley:

I don't recall anyone bringing your name here but I guess you have a gift for this kind of things. If you, or any of your personalities, can recall back to Sept. 2003 you will remember seeing a yard full of chameleons and a few baby cages set up. There were 3 babies from Cyclops in the cage (1 male and 2 females). You saw Cyclops yourself and several of the females I had. Now do you recall who I told you provided me with all the males and females at that time? It wasn't Chamco because the only thing I had from them at that time was Anubis. It was from someone you know very well and now defend. Think about this for a minute Lane, if I had 30 males and about 45 females, how many eggs and clutches should I have hatched? How many babies did you see me selling online at retail? Well, I'll tell you what in case you have figured it out. Many, many females that I got turned out to be from all parts of the island of Madagascar except Ambilobe and those babies started life colored up in a very bizarre way. I knew they were crossed locale and sold them wholesale locally or to people that wanted pets only. The ones that were phenotypically accurate to represent their locale, were sold as such. Woodrow falls in that category and you can ask Dennis how long he had to wait before I could get him a Cyclops male. I wouldn't sell him one until I got one that looked like it was pure and Woodrow did.
Now, thanks to females I ended up getting through Reptile Specilaties, Zoological Imports and Xtreme reptiles, I have the most impressive collection of CB adult, sub adult and baby Ambilobes I have seen to date.
Breeding loan from Chamco? You are indeed crazy. Chamco will never lend a female as they are too valuable. Jim likes me but not enough to give me females on a loan. So there you have it again Lane, another conspiracy theory gone to the ground. Judges, Lawyers, Bailiffs.... Oh my!!!!! Lane, just go eat your turkey with your nice family and stop listening to the voices. Have you seen the movie Identity? You should.

Ivan

PS. Don't expect me to keep posting here about all this crap. I stated my point and now I am off to South America to spread the gospel.

What baffles me is if Ivan has a chameleon on his site listed as an ambilobe and i wanted a male from this chameleon i would assume it is pure ambilobe. I didn't want a hybid, I didn't pay for a hybrid this is were I got ripped off. Ivan being the only owner of the chameleon new that he was sending me a cross. I never asked for something that that LOOKED pure, if it listed as ambilobe the offspring you sell SHOULD be pure. I should have at the very least been told at the time it might not be 100%.

As far as the guy I sold Woodrow too. I sent the guy eye drops and every other call the guy would flip flop and tell me one trime the eye was nearly all better and the next time say it was getting worse. At this point I told him he needed to take him to a vet. For the record I took Woodrow to the vet just a couple days before I sent him along with my other chameelons for a regular check up and everything was fine with him. It's kind of hard to help a guy that keeps changing what he is saying concerning the chameleon. I think his main problem was he wanted to buy a female I had and i wouldn't mate her to another chameleon that was already sold and just waiting to be shipped. I ended up selling the female to someone else because he wouldn't make up his mind if he wanted her if i didn't breed her.

Dennis Scott