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taming an agressive ball python

Manhattan Herps

PROUD Christian
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probably 5 words you dont hear much

lol, i purchased a 31/2 foot ,male ball on sunday..he was perfectly tame when the breeder picked him up..didnt hiss..didnt strike...brought him home and all he does is strike at me

i know its probably from stres but he ate 2 jumbo mice yesterday..and continued to srtike, its been about5daysnow if he doest calm down in another 5 days what should i do to get him to stop striking..i held him twice once he was in a ball which is normal..sencond i had to hold his head gently so he couldnt strike at my face
 
Give him a little time to settle in - probably stressed. The more you hold him after he is settled in the more he "should" calm down.
Good Luck-
BT
 
First of all why are you trying to handle it at all after:

1) Just buying it and transporting it to a new enclosure where it should remain unmolested for at last several days

2) After you just fed it whereby it should remain unmolested for several days

Give it at least two hides, one at cool end, and one at the warm end of enclosure, and leave it alone for a week or two. Then try handling it - without the smell of mouse or rat on your hands, and with slow deliberate movements.

Good luck
GlennB
 
Well the first time i picked him up was when i was transfering him into his new enclosure, he was in a ball, i held him there for about a minute then gently placed him in his new tank

Second time was because he had some retained shed on his head and back, so i had to get it off

i did NOt hold him after feeding, i've kept balls befor i know when i should'nt handle them, i just never had a ball this agressive

i keep a towel over his tank so he cant see outside, i do this with all my new arivals including snakes, usually they start to calm within 4-7 days, i sometimes lift it up a bt to see what he's up to and thats when he strikes

he has a large log hide on the warm side, and a box with a hole cut out on the cool side, he's never in them, at least not when i lit the towel up to check on him
 
give him some time to settle in work with him a bit after he has settled in..... if he choses to bite you let him bite (hands arms) just dont pull away (you might rip teeth out or possibly cause more bleeding to you) sometimes it take to getting bit a couple of time for him to "realize" if you will that it doesnt matter if he bites or not, again there are some snakes even balls that are spawn of satan
 
thanks robin, i let him bite at me today a few times, didnt hurt as much as i expected it to, infact he barely even scratched me, for now im going to put one of my unwashed shirst in with him to give him a better chance at recognizing my scent
 
also when feeding only use long feeding tweezers or tongs, dont dangle it by the tail with your fingers.... he will associate the tongs ior tweezers with feeding rather than a big warm hand to chomp on when feeding/ the shirt idea is a great one i have heard much sucess with useing it. we feed all our animals in their own enclosures but use only tongs (hemos) or tweezers) russ rarely gets a bit... i get bit all the time tweezers or not they must like the taste of robin.... even at the show this weekend i got a whole palmfull of irian jaya (just my luck... actually i dont expect anything different now adays)
 
hah, i was bitten by a Biak and an Aru at the show here on sunday..came home and was bitten by my friends baby burm..lol

i figured tongs would work better, im going down to a drug store tommorow, i'll see if they have them, thinks for the help ;)
 
Hi, I just came a long and read this post. I have a few snakes that bluff, but then they would calm down right away. Did you get your tongs? I got mine at Wal-Mart. They work great.
As you the striking idea. I have heard once that you leave the snake a lone for one week. Don't even peak in on him. Just let him sit a lone for a week and let him get used to his tank. Leave a nice size water dish so that you don't have to water him during the week. Then once the week is over, try to handle him very slowly. I hear that you shouldn't leave the room where his tank is in. That causes stress because of each room has a different smell.

What I do with my agressive snakes, I handle them each day But for the days that they need to eat and not be handled I don't touch them. I handle them for about 10 minutes, then I put the snake back. Each week, go longer and longer with time with the snake, and they should calm right down. But some snakes will take longer due to how old they are, and how each snake is. Some are born with a different personality, and they will never change. BUT they may change for someone else. I know someone who HAD a rock python and that snake was the devils pet. It was nasty as anything. But when they sold it, the new owner says it's the nicest rock python they have ever had. So I would guess it depends on the snake on when they want to be nice or not.
I hope this helps a little. I hope I didn't confuse anyone...Keep us updated on how your progress with this snake goes. I hope it turns out to be a happy ending :)
 
if he choses to bite you let him bite (hands arms) just dont pull away (you might rip teeth out or possibly cause more bleeding to you) sometimes it take to getting bit a couple of time for him to "realize" if you will that it doesnt matter if he bites or not

Doesn't work. It's a great strategy for animals which are aware of the reaction to their actions and make a conscious choice to perform one... So it's perfect for a puppy that likes to chew fingers or a psittacine that won't let you touch it's feet but snakes won't make the connection and it won't stop them from nailing you in the future. The advice about avoiding the knee jerk (hand jerk?) reaction is a good, but the idea that it will somehow cause the animal's behavior to change is incorrect.
 
seamus,
from experience with both young carpets and rainbow boas it actually does work alot of the time... i wont say every time but it does alot of the time... but like i said this has been MY experiece
 
from experience with both young carpets and rainbow boas it actually does work alot of the time

I'm confident enough in my position to say that you are flat out wrong about this Robin. Any observations you may have made to support such a nonsensical theory are biased and inaccurate, it's simply not the way a reptile learns and is entirely outside the relam of reptilian behavior and brain function.
 
this actual tip was given to me from a man (jeff claark) whom has been keeping breeding boas for longer than both you and i have been alive ... i would take his word and experience over any scientific data you may or may not be basing this on.
the same kinds of theory can hold true for hand feeding versus tong feeding... we tong feed only so the snake associates the metal tongs with being fed... instead of a nice warm hand daggling a rat... by using this method we have not been bit once except by an extrely mean colomian, male blue beaty and an argie but he only bite me not my husband.
i think your views of actual "intelegence" if you will are rather skewed... they are very primitive but i do think that some behaviors are rather a "choice" which would suspect some sort of primitive throught process or intelgence.
look at venomouse snakes... not every bite is an envenomation... hence dry bites... if it was as simple as all hots that strike envenomate your theory might hold true but the fact is that not all bite result in envenomation.... is it a choice? i dont know but it seems their is more of a primitive intelgence in reptiles than most people think
 
You are looking at the situation backwards Robin.

Allowing a nonvenomous snake to nail you removes YOUR fear of being bitten, which in turn changes how YOU approach the snake. Different stimulus leads to a different response, the snake's behavior hasn't changed in the least, it's just in a different situation as the handler subtly alters their methods. The snake doesn't have the physical structures in the brain which would be required for an abstract conclusion to be drawn as a consequence of their own action... They literally don't have the ability to think "Biting doesn't work, I should stop biting" it's a hardwired response to a certain type of stimulus.

Snake envenomation, while a seperate topic, is also not a voluntary action. Dry bites occur when the pressure on the fangs is not applied in such a manner as to cause venom to flow. Individual species have slightly different musculature, which is why some tend to dry bite more frequently than others. It's not as if the animal makes a choice to envenomate or not- apply pressure in the right spots at the right angles and boom, you've got venom. I can see where you were trying to take the argument there but this is another example of incomplete observation- much like your original idea of "taming" a snake by allowing it to see that you are unaffected by bites. You are taking evidence that you don't fully understand and applying what you feel is a logical conclusion to the meaning behind it- an excellent habit to get into, but you also need to acknowledge that such observational hypothesis aren't always correct, as is the case with this subject.
 
it's simply not the way a reptile learns and is entirely outside the relam of reptilian behavior and brain function.
retiles learn huh? so tell me how they do this? ... becasue if they learn then they have some sort of an "intelegence"

reptiliian behavior? and brain function.... now i am sure you have read and stufied about this but as far as behavior what is your experience? secondly how do we know what their brain funtion is? i mean come on mice maybe..primates maybe however reptile brain funtion so little is known of retiles in general i find it hard to believe alot is known about how their brain functions and could the functioning be different from species to species?


Allowing a nonvenomous snake to nail you removes YOUR fear of being bitten, which in turn changes how YOU approach the snake.

im the first to admit i hate being bitten... i do not change my approach because, the thing is, i can not see well enough to tell why type of positionm its in... defensive... nondefensive.... i can not see well enough to tell if its looking at me or away from me so i approach all our snakes the same way littlerally blinded (with the exception of three) and grab the booger. see i have the disadvantage that you have to change the way i approach the animal you can see where its head is and you can tell if it is in a defensive posture, so you may change YOUR approach for each different animal dependant on that I can not. so you cant tell me its me and not the snake

Snake envenomation, while a seperate topic, is also not a voluntary action. Dry bites occur when the pressure on the fangs is not applied in such a manner as to cause venom to flow. Individual species have slightly different musculature, which is why some tend to dry bite more frequently than others.

then why are neonates most likely to envenomate on a more consistant basis that their adult counterparts?



and just a question have you ever worked with asian elaphae ?
 
retiles learn huh? so tell me how they do this? ... becasue if they learn then they have some sort of an "intelegence"

Learn isn't exactly the right word, I should have chosen a different one. Reptiles have procedural memory and brain function. Certain behaviors are hardwired in and, given a specific and identical stimulus, animals in identical condtion within a species will respond in the same manner. There is no free will or choice in this, if there is a stimulus, there is a response. Procedural memory can't be overwritten, the animals can't go against the responses that instinct dictates for a given situation however additional stimulus can end up being associated with one for which there is a specific response. It's basically pattern recognition that takes a long time and many repeated applications to sink in. The feeding response associated with a set of tongs or a seperate rubbermaid for instance... this is just an adaptation of existing instinctive responses to a game trail or other prey reccognition stimulus. Humans (and other mammals and many birds) have declarative memory and brain function. We can make abstract connections and don't need repeated application of a stimulus to remember appropriate behavioral responses. We're also slower and more error prone because of it, greater adaptability if we survive an initial encounter with a new stimulus, but no response for an initial contact. So it's not intelligence in any human sense or common use of the word, not even close. It's just instinctual adaptation when it occurs. Learning was, as I said, the wrong word entirely.

as far as behavior what is your experience?

When avoiding anthropomorphism, my experience coincides with the above. Reptile behavior is alien to our understanding in many ways, we can put it down on paper but not empathize with something that basic and in that respect we can't conceptualize it easily. We also tend to ignore subtleties in stimulus which is applied, we think a hand picking a herp up is a hand picking a herp up and rarely do we consider the time of day, the temperature, the humidity, light intensity, barometric pressure, angle of approach, hundreds of minor scents and movements and visual triggers which can mean the difference between no real response being generated and an animal trying to bite your hand clean off. When these factors are considered, species become extremely predictable.

could the functioning be different from species to species?

Sort of... I think what you meant was more along the lines of "can the instinctive triggers and responses differ from species to species" which is absolutely correct. If you mean that the actual brain function differs, it's such a small degree within reptiles as to make no real difference.

then why are neonates most likely to envenomate on a more consistant basis that their adult counterparts?

They aren't really, as a whole. It's a crock, an old wives tale, up there with how all snakes have stingers in their tongues and that they will bite their tails, form a perfect hoop and chase you. Some few species the neonates have greater muscle sensitivity and are more likely to expell venom when biting, but the reverse is also true and there are species where neonates are very slightly more likely to dry bite. If you meant what I think you did... that "baby snakes don't know how to control their venom" crap, then... well... Let's try some zoology rather than asking your gap toothed white trash neighbors.

and just a question have you ever worked with asian elaphae ?

I have never bred them or personally owned any, but over the years I'd say I've seen and worked with (been responsible for the well being of) one or two... or a few thousand, give or take. Why do you ask?
 
The snake doesn't have the physical structures in the brain which would be required for an abstract conclusion to be drawn as a consequence of their own action... They literally don't have the ability to think "Biting doesn't work, I should stop biting" it's a hardwired response to a certain type of stimulus.
Snakes do have the ability to determine if they think something is a threat or not, if something is food or not, and other things along those lines. Letting the snake bite you, even if you do not change your behavior will eventually come to the oint where the snake no longer bites you because it figured out that either you are not a threat or are not food. You need not change your behavior for that, the snake can be conditioned to accept the situation as non-threatening if exposed to it enough times. Letting it bite you probably has little to do with it, except that when you let it bite you you do not pose a further threat as if you quickly move your hand to avoid the bite. Such a reaction on your part would likely appear to the snake as a further threatening movement. On the other hand when it bites you and you do nothing, it will probably more quickly come to the conclusion that you are not a threat through conditioning. Not because it bit you, but because you did nothing further to threaten it. Sure you may have picked it up and handled it, but did not hurt it. It learns you are not a threat.
 
ok glenn said it better than myself, thank you glenn

I have never bred them or personally owned any, but over the years I'd say I've seen and worked with (been responsible for the well being of) one or two... or a few thousand, give or take
well what is it? one or two or a thousand? big difference.
 
Snakes do have the ability to determine if they think something is a threat or not, if something is food or not, and other things along those lines.

Not as a conscious choice. These determinations are hardwired into the brain from birth, sensory information is gathered, run through a fairly simple brain and then a response is elicited. It's like a punch card computer... or to use another analogy, a childs toy. Prey is a square peg. In the snakes brain there is a square hole. If something appears as a square peg, then a specific response is generated. They do not have free will, they have no choice about their actions. Instinct dictates response.

This is why tease feeding and prey scenting works. This is why hybrids can be created using shed skins. Stimulus triggers response. Response is determined by genetics.

Such a reaction on your part would likely appear to the snake as a further threatening movement. On the other hand when it bites you and you do nothing, it will probably more quickly come to the conclusion that you are not a threat through conditioning.

You yourself just defeated that argument Glenn... the behavior of the PERSON changed. You changed the stimulus, NOT the behavioral patterns of the animal. If you think that allowing yourself to be chewed on will change how the snake reacts given otherwise identical stimulus, I have some ATBs I want you to meet. Bring bandaids.

well what is it? one or two or a thousand? big difference.

Not really adept at picking up satire and conversational nuances, are you Robin? If it were one or two, I would not have mentioned numbers in the thousands. By mentioning one or two as a possibility, it's a kind of tongue in cheek response. I do not know the exact number I have worked with, I would estimate it as being slightly in excess of a thousand, although the majority of these were for short durations of time, a few weeks before they were sold. If you're talking the whole genus I have worked with them at all stages of life although, as I specified, I have never kept any in my home or bred them myself. If you're reffering to a specific species, then name it and I can be less generalized in my answer... Like... I have worked with a higher number of beauty snakes than I have cave dwelling rats... but more cave dwelling rats than red tailed greens. Whatever you're getting at, just get at it, eh?

And we've kind of hijacked the original poster's thread... The best response he got was that young balls are nippier than traditionally thought of as being, although a great deal of it is bluff and they tend to have poor aim. Most of them will grow out of it, although there is the rare adult that will smash it's face into the glass (assuming an aquarium or vision style caging) because someone in the room moved twelve feet away.
 
Seamus,

I think you are absolutely wrong about how a snake can think. Read about the keepers at the Staten Island Zoo who always wore white when they approached the snake enclosures and how the snakes became accustomed to this and became docile around the keepers so attired, but reverted to nasty when a keeper approached who forgot to wear his white lab style coat. Go to the zoo at feeding time, the snakes are fed at regular intervals at the SI zoo. I have witnessed the snakes as they anticipate feeding time. The keeper explain that they have LEARNED to anticipate feeding time. This is not hard wired by mother nature, don't even bother to try and convince me of that. They have learned to attune their biological clocks to feeding times at certain hours on certain days. This is a hard cold fact that you cannot refute, and I have seen it first hand a number of time. Sure as you said "stimulus triggers response" it works here too but the stimulus had to be learned and then anticipated to trigger that response.

est regards,
Glenn B
 
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