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dresp
08-11-2002, 06:35 PM
Has anyone (else) purchased het piebald Hognose from Terry Lilley? I have been told he never had any. Any info. would be appreciated.
Dr Jon Esposito

Tribal Propagation
08-11-2002, 10:03 PM
Jon, reading your post stimulated our curiosity about the possibility of a Pied hognose snake. We did a search on Terry and found a photo of a male pied hognose. The picture is not of very good quality and if it were us we would want to see a better photo. Here's the link to the photo we had seen Pied hognose (http://www.jbreptiles.com/hognose.htm) Anyone else have an opinion?

Tribal Propagation
Brian and Laura Hamel
1255 Saratoga Lane
Geneva, FL 32732
407-349-2824
www.tribalpropagation.com

Neil Gubitz
08-11-2002, 10:14 PM
Brian and Terry...That snake is AWESOME!! When I first read the thread, I thought he was kidding? No such animal, I thought!...MAN!, was I proven wrong! A picture's worth a thousand words! ...OK, so maybe a fuzzy picture is worth 500 words! Close enough! lol....Neil

HerpVenue
08-11-2002, 10:48 PM
call me a skeptic.

but every other picture is clear and good quality....
except for the piebald.

If it were me and I had such a stunning animal,
it would probably be the only high quality picture I would have.
I would make sure it would be the best picture.

and no I am not saying they are lying. I am just saying...
they have all those high quality pictures of normals and incubators.....but they can't take a decent pic of the piebald hognose WHY

TC@Screamdreams
08-11-2002, 11:27 PM
Very good point...

Ken Harbart
08-11-2002, 11:41 PM
Actually, its a point that's easily explained. Note that there is a notation under the picture that states that it is not theirs. Gateway only has hets, and the pic of the pied sire to those hets was supplied by Terry Lilley.

napavalleysnakes
08-12-2002, 12:16 AM
Actually there is such an animal. It is owned by a breeder back east, and hets from this animal have been produced and I know of at least two individuals with the offspring from the original animal. Whether the trait can be proven, well that is still in the making. &nbsp;It is not in the possession (pie-bald that these particular hets came from) of Terry Lilley to the best of my knowledge. It's actually a rather long story on this one <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
but the animal does exist..

Stephen Emerick

TC@Screamdreams
08-12-2002, 12:26 AM
and yet another very good point, I missed that one Ken.

evansnakes
08-12-2002, 10:42 PM
Aside from the dozens of people that I know that have never recieved money and/or animals promised from Terry Lilley, if you take the pied hognose picture and study it closely under good lighting you will be able to clearly see that the photo has been retouched and that it is a picture of a normal hognose that has had editing done to it. Anyone that purchased "hets" is going to be dissapointed. I have also heard half a dozen different stories from half a dozen different people who talked to the guy who produced the photo and took credit for the animals. Every one of them was told different age/size/availabilty/clutch size etc. When these animals are old enough to breed in 1 1/2-2 years there are going to be a bunch of lawsuits. Evan Stahl

HerpVenue
08-12-2002, 11:31 PM
Very good point Evan.

Now it is getting interesting.....what is the real story behind the piebald.
Yes the picture looks totally fake. &nbsp;It was so fake I did not feel the need to point it out.

Now I ask....why was it pulled from Gateways website?
Is it because they realized it was fake.
Is it because....well anyone know?

HerpVenue
08-12-2002, 11:33 PM
Does Terry Lilley have a website?

Darin Chappell
08-13-2002, 01:58 AM
I found a website for Terry Lilley at:

www.centralcoastreptiles.com

There, under the last heading of his available animal "Price List" section, he had the following animals listed:

1.2 Het Pied Western Hognose Snakes- first ever captive hatched ....................................$1500 pr.

He had a picture of his supposedly first ever produced hypomelanistic woma pythons, but nothing on the pied hognose.

Darin Chappell
08-13-2002, 12:28 PM
Dr. Esposito wrote in another thread:

"A number of people including myself bought what were supposed to be het piebald Hognose from Terry Lilley. It turns out it was a scam and he never had any. If you are smart you will not have any dealings with this man. He is a crook. "

I know that there has been a lot of speculation about a lack of evidence of Terry Lilley having a piebald hognose, but I was not aware that it had been proven he did not ever have one in his possession to account for his supposed hets. &nbsp;Do you now have such evidence?

It's faulty logic to say that because you cannot prove he does have the animal, he does not, in fact, have it and never has. &nbsp;Surely, as a doctor, you recognize that lack of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of lacking. &nbsp;

It may very well be found out that Lilley has been scamming people (the initial evidences suggest such), but we should probably nail that down tightly before we call him a crook. &nbsp;Or have I missed something?

dresp
08-13-2002, 12:56 PM
Your point is well taken. However, if he really sold het pied Hognose I would think he would be happy to refund money to dissatisfied customers who can return the snakes in good shape. If they are what he claims they should be easy to sell if he can prove they are what he says. If Terry Lilley is not a crook he can easily clear his name. Until he does I stand by my opinion that he is a liar and a crook.
Jon Esposito

dresp
08-13-2002, 03:06 PM
Terry Lilley has offered to help me sell the Hognose I bought from him and says that there is more than one male pied. If this is in fact the truth then I may be wrong (and am the first to admit it). So, for the time being I retract my opinions and will see what happens.
Jon Esposito

evansnakes
08-13-2002, 06:37 PM
If there really is one (or even two) pied hognose (what are the odds they are both male breeders) why is there only one doctored, fake picture available? Evan Stahl

Neil Gubitz
08-13-2002, 06:47 PM
Guys...I've got a serious question for you all, since I'm basically photographically-impaired (as any of you that have seen my pictures can attest...lol)...but...how can you tell that the picture was doctored and is fake? If, as you say, it wasn't even Terry's picture...is it POSSIBLE that Terry could have taken a picture of the picture and therefore it came out blurry? I've spoke to Terry a couple of times and he just doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would pull off such a blatant scam? Anybody? ....Neil

TC@Screamdreams
08-13-2002, 07:58 PM
Hey Neil, what's up???
Well, it seems to me if someone actually "took a picture of a picture" they're obviously "photographically-impaired" far beyond our wildest dreams, LOL!!! I don't know Terry, so I can't comment on his practices, etc...but I think it's a little odd that the picture in question has been removed from the site. There may be a good explanation, and then again maybe not. It's got me more than a little curious, I mean, add the empty frame formerly known as the "possibly altered" Piebald Hognose pic to the "dozens of people" Evan knows who currently have unresolved matters with him, it just may equal *BUYER BEWARE* but I'm mathematically-impaired...the Ohio State Dept. of Taxation can attest to that, LOL!! Again...I don't know him, but I am familiar with his name, so maybe we can get some feedback from people that have dealt with him personally. It may help clean this up a little. Napavalleysnakes says the animal(s) do exist, so maybe it's for real.

Neil Gubitz
08-13-2002, 08:23 PM
Hi Troy....long time!

Hey...you think YOU'RE bad at math?? I can't count to 21 less I'm NAKED! And that's only if I'm excited and it isn't cold out! lmao

I sure would like to know if there is such a snake out there, I wouldn't mind breeding a couple myself!....Neil

Ken Harbart
08-13-2002, 08:29 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If there really is one (or even two) pied hognose (what are the odds they are both male breeders) why is there only one doctored, fake picture available? Evan Stahl </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Steve, who has proven himself to be one of the most trutworthy guys in this business, has attested to the existence of a piebald hognose and it's first generation offspring earlier in this thread.

The point of contention is whether or not that the "hets" being offered are the offspring of this animal or not.

TC@Screamdreams
08-13-2002, 09:08 PM
Okay, I was confused for a second. So the site that had the "disappearing" pic wasn't Terry's site, right? In my previous post I was under the assumption HE may have removed it. after reviewing this thread I realized it was Gateway's site. So before I confuse any of you, I'm going to butt out of this one, and just READ...but I do have to say one more thing...with all the mega-pixels available in the world today, along with this new generation of reptile hobbiest/breeders/collectors that thrive on taking or providing the highest quality photos to represent their animals to the public in breathtakingly detail, and going to great lengths in doing so, why isn't there ANY good pics of this morph??? I'm not a "pic collector" but you'd think REPTILES MAGAZINE or STEVE GOOCH would get ahold of this one...at least once. Again, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, as Ken said, Steve has excellent credentials, I'm just curious as to why.

napavalleysnakes
08-14-2002, 12:47 AM
I'll try to clear up the issue of whether the animal actually exists by contacting the owner and asking his permission to name him. He is a real stand-up guy, and fairly well known despite not advertising his animals on Kingsnake or Fauna Classifieds. Hopefully other herpers can understand how someone could possibly want to remain nameless in this industry with some of the strange things currently going on. I will also try to get him to send me a recent photo of the animal. Now the funny thing is, that in an age of wonderful photographic technology, he is truly one of those people that does not take photos of his animals. We hear all the time how somebody doesn't own a digital camera, yet is selling $3000 snakes. Makes us a bit nervous about dealing with them (for good reason too). I first dealt with him when I purchased his Mandarin Colony a few years back, sight unseen (he didn't have pictures then either), and the animals I received were so much nicer than even his descriptions of them. One thing I can state is the person I am vouching for is not Terry Lilley.. I do not know whether Terry has a piebald hognose or not. Something else I will state is the genetics of this animal have yet to be proven out, so the hets could turn out be nothing more than ordinary hogs upon breeding them..

Stephen Emerick

Napa Valley Snakes (http://www.napavalleysnakes.com)

Bubafat
01-22-2006, 05:49 PM
Really old thread, but I'd like to know if anyone has heard anything new on this? Are there piebald hognose's out there? Were the hets fake?

Matt Hennek

lbratcher4
01-24-2006, 01:08 PM
One of my buddies bought a pair of the hets and knows others that bought pairs and none of them proved out so it was bogus.

darkbloodwyvern
01-27-2006, 03:15 AM
that sucks, it sounds like some people were positive it existed... :(

lcchavez
01-06-2007, 12:38 PM
Old old topic I know but one more ? on this: I know the hets came out to be bogus... ...but what about the original piebald that supposedly produced the hets. Could it be possibly that it was just a ringer and not genetic? Or was there one to begin with? Another picture of one never appeared again.