Another Thorn for the Herp Community - Illegal Venomous Reptile Shipping

SPZOOLOGICAL · Jan 22, 2005

alvaro said:
Maybe some of you followed Kevin Smith’s thread and the heated debate on the unlawful shipping of venomous snakes that happened a few weeks ago. It would’ve been extremely important for more people to get involved in that discussion and voice their opinion.

It is clear there are irresponsible venomous snake keepers/dealers that dismiss the relevance of adhering to the law when shipping their animals. Thanks to this forum most of us know now who some of these individuals are. But it would be important that those who have information on who is shipping illegally also come forward and let the rest of the herp community know.

Non-compliance with the Lacey Act and shipping venomous snakes through non-approved carriers are both ways of breaking the law. The difference is that sending an unlabeled box with a corn snake will not put lives at risk, whereas sending a mamba will. Let’s put our efforts on trying to stop the illegal shipping of poisonous snakes. Maybe we should even start a thread about it.

One final thought though, there wouldn’t be sellers shipping illegally, if there weren’t buyers willing to receive poisonous snakes illegally.

Best regards.

I 2nd it. It seems that there is an increased frequency of hobbyists shipping venomous reptiles illegally. This problem is not just a problem for the venomous reptile hobbyists, but all reptile hobbyists as well. Currently, there are reptile bans of some sort in NY, ND, LA, and recently 1 bill introduced in WA in the past year. How as a group should we deal with these problems? When is enough finally enough? Enough will be enough when someone gets hurt. First, and foremost, this is the reason for the post. Should we take a stand here and now and say, “If you’ve done it in the past, we forgive you, but NO MORE!”??? What do you guys think? How should we deal with those who violate this law? Should we bring them on here and chew their ass? Or should we adopt a self policing “Snitch Program”, and refer ALL those who break the law to authorities? I’m not sure how to deal with this issue, honestly. I’ve never been one for “snitching”, but I’m also not in favor of anyone innocent getting hurt, and jeopardizing my hobby either. Personally, I would be in favor of the “Snitching Policy” I can’t seem to recollect anyone I know ever enjoying going to jail and paying a fine. When a venomous reptile is shipped through anything but the airline, it puts carriers at significant risk. Nobody can guarantee the integrity of the cardboard box isn’t going to be compromised while en route. Think for a moment. Can you imagine the terror some innocent currier would feel if they were “pin pricked” through a bag that started to move, and had no idea what the hell it was? Not knowing the ID of an offending snake may also mean life or death for someone. With some of the horror stories I have heard about exotic venomous shipments passing through unapproved curriers, it’s safe to speculate that it is only a matter of time until something bad really happens and someone gets hurt. Legal issues aside, the hobby aside, none of it will matter when someone dies or gets hurt because some reckless herper wants to save a few bucks on shipping. It only takes once. Considering a stricter self-policing policy, let us also take into consideration the following:

Currently, Delta and Northwest are approved curriers for venomous reptiles.

Delta links w/ Skywest. Skywest DOES NOT accept venomous reptile cargo. You must be a “known” shipper before you can ship through Delta. It’s very easy. Call your local representative and arrange to meet w/ them.

Northwest links w/ Continental. Continental DOES NOT accept venomous reptile cargo. I have been told by a representative of NW that I must be verified to use them. I never use them, so I don’t know for sure. Conflicting reports seem to indicate otherwise.

Anyone know anyone else?

The animals should be “humanely” packed and not “stuffed” during transport. It’s your obligation to humanely transport all animals in your care. Also, if you don’t…..you’re breaking the law.

SEC 2. Section (b)(2) of the Animal Welfare Act

SEC. 2. Section 1 of the Act of August 24, 1966 (80 Stat. 350, as amended by the Animal Welfare Act of 1970, 84, Stat. 1560; 7 U.S.C. 2131-2155) is amended to read as follows:
"Section 1. (a) This Act may be cited as the `Animal Welfare Act'.
"(b) The Congress finds that animals and activities which are regulated under this Act are either in interstate or foreign commerce or substantially affect such commerce or the free flow thereof, and that regulation of animals and activities as provided in this Act is necessary to prevent and eliminate burdens upon such commerce and to effectively regulate such commerce, in order--
"(1) to insure that animals intended for use in research facilities or for exhibition purposes for use as pets are provided humane care and treatment;
"(2) to assure the humane treatment of animals during transportation in commerce; and

In my opinion, SEC 2 Section 1. (b) (1) of the Act is basis for argument against the venomoid trade.

Title 18. Crimes and Criminal Procedure, Part I Crimes; Chapter 3. Animals, Birds, Fish and Plants (Lacey Act)

§ 3372. Prohibited acts

(a) Offenses other than marking offenses. It is unlawful for any person--
(1) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law;
(2) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce--
(A) any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in violation of any foreign law, or
(B) any plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State;
(3) within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States (as defined in section 7 of title 18, United States Code [18 USCS § 7])--
(A) to possess any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in violation of any foreign law or Indian tribal law, or
(B) to possess any plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State; [or]
(4) to attempt to commit any act described in paragraphs (1) through (4) [(3)].
(b) Marking offenses. It is unlawful for any person to import, export, or transport in interstate commerce any container or package containing any fish or wildlife unless the container or package has previously been plainly marked, labeled, or tagged in accordance with the regulations issued pursuant to paragraph (2) of subsection 7(a) of this Act [16 USCS § 3376(a)(2)].

Now everybody knows.

I encourage anyone who has been shipping venomous reptiles illegally to stop this immediately. If you know of anyone currently using this method, please come forward (or at least inform them of this thread), let’s get them in here, and lets talk about it. This crap needs to stop.

Sean Palmer
[email protected]

Wilomn · Jan 22, 2005

I think you are right Scott. This does need to be reported as it is discovered.

I don't think it's snitching to alert authorities about these shippers and recievers when we find out about them.

If I knew a bus driver who was putting the lives of his passengers at risk, I'd let his boss know. If I knew a mechanic putting dangerous cars back on the road as safe I'd let someone know about that too. Those as well as shipping venomous snakes put innocent peoples lives in danger.

This sounds so petty but it isn't. If it goes far enough there will be no more shippers at all other than delta. That simply will not be adequate for many of us. I'd also be really pissed if someone I knew was injured or killed by someone shipping hots illegally. This is not a bump in the road, it's a high hurdle.

These guys should be fair game for exposure and we, the reptile community as a whole, should do all we can to report this when we know of it.

Wilomn · Jan 22, 2005

Sorry, I meant Sean. I am terrible with names.

The BoidSmith · Jan 23, 2005

Or should we adopt a self policing “Snitch Program”, and refer ALL those who break the law to authorities?

I agree. There are people among us that don’t care at all about putting at risk other people’s lives. Not only that of the carriers, but they also sell poisonous snakes to minors and other people that don’t have a clue about how to keep them. Those are at an even greater risk than the carrier’s employees. A woman died a few months ago bitten by her “pet”, a Bothrops alternatus. Don’t get me wrong, I also like (and respect) venomous snakes. But my rights to keep them end exactly where those of the safeness of my neighbor start. Self policing is the way to go. Maybe it will backfire on us, if it does happen so be it. On the other hand maybe we will be respected because we act responsibly.

DAND · Jan 23, 2005

It's unacceptable...

I for one can't just sit by and watch a car wreck. What really gets me about this whole thing is the blatant disregard for the rest of the herp community. If something like an escape, injury or a fatality occurs it will affect us all. Not to mention exposing the unknowing delivery staff to the potential risk. All this for what? To save a few bucks? If you aren't verified, qualified or approved to ship hots via the approved carriers then you shouldn't be dealing with in the first place!

cthulhu77 · Jan 23, 2005

It is for the reasons you have all listed above (and quite good ones) that I have called several shipping companies from time to time, most lately, the big DHL thing...no one has any right to endanger any one else's life. I have very good friends in the shipping industry, and if one of them was injured by some idiot's poorly packed or illegaly shipped cobra, I would be most put out.

There are some basic safeguards that anyone with more than two brain cells can understand...it is really sad that it seems we have quite a few with less in the herpetocultural world.

greg

SPZOOLOGICAL · Jan 23, 2005

Thanks for the comments, fellas. I share these concerns. I guess it's time to make an example of someone and let's just see what happens. The next time we have info proving these violations, point me in the direction of the thread, and I will make some calls. Or, if you are just having a bad day...you can do it.

Sean Palmer

The BoidSmith · Jan 23, 2005

So far so good, we all agree. The million dollar question is how do we start doing something? Should we just sit and wait for someone to post in the BOI stating “so and so send me a venomous through UPS and it arrived dead’? That’s not going to happen. By now most people understand that even if they received the animal without knowing they are guilty as well. That’s clearly stated by USPS; the shipper and the recipient are both at fault.

We need to be proactive. Try to find out who is selling and how they are shipping. Are there even web pages where they insinuate the possibility of alternative shipping methods? If there are, they should be modified. But when that was pointed that a while back all hell broke loose (probably nothing has been done so far). Even the people who keep venomous snakes should be here trying to give us a hand on this. We are protecting their interests also.

In short, why don’t we start by policing ourselves and whenever we find a site/individual or anyone doing so try to contact him/them and tell them how we feel about this issue? I’m convinced everyone that sells and ships knows that it’s illegal to do it other than through approved carriers. But let’s give them the benefit of the doubt first. If they react the wrong way then yes we should bring it to the attention of the public, starting by this site. Everyone should understand we are not doing this to hurt anyone’s hobby/business. It is to insure the safeness of those that enjoy herps only when they watch them in the Discovery Channel, and to also increase the sustainability of our hobby.

Regards

Earl H. Turner · Jan 23, 2005

Illegal Shipping with no regard to safety

Several years ago, I received a 7' Central American Bushmaster in a cardboard " Banana box" that had open slits on the side...the snake came in via Delta Dash and was marked IGUANA--HARMLESS LIZARD !!!! The shipment was at the baggage counter at the Internal Airport. When I saw the package, I almost sh*T. I called the man who shipped the snake to me and he acted as though it was not a big deal----someone could have been easily bitten by that snake--there were finger slots all over the sides of the box----I never purchased another snake from that individual. The irresponsible individual who shipped the Bushmaster to me was Dean Ripa. :hot:

E.Turner

SPZOOLOGICAL · Jan 23, 2005

alvaro said:
So far so good, we all agree. The million dollar question is how do we start doing something? Should we just sit and wait for someone to post in the BOI stating “so and so send me a venomous through UPS and it arrived dead’? That’s not going to happen. By now most people understand that even if they received the animal without knowing they are guilty as well. That’s clearly stated by USPS; the shipper and the recipient are both at fault.

We need to be proactive. Try to find out who is selling and how they are shipping. Are there even web pages where they insinuate the possibility of alternative shipping methods? If there are, they should be modified. But when that was pointed that a while back all hell broke loose (probably nothing has been done so far). Even the people who keep venomous snakes should be here trying to give us a hand on this. We are protecting their interests also.

In short, why don’t we start by policing ourselves and whenever we find a site/individual or anyone doing so try to contact him/them and tell them how we feel about this issue? I’m convinced everyone that sells and ships knows that it’s illegal to do it other than through approved carriers. But let’s give them the benefit of the doubt first. If they react the wrong way then yes we should bring it to the attention of the public, starting by this site. Everyone should understand we are not doing this to hurt anyone’s hobby/business. It is to insure the safeness of those that enjoy herps only when they watch them in the Discovery Channel, and to also increase the sustainability of our hobby.

Regards

Always such wisdom. Thanks for the insight, and I agree. Should we elect someone to contact dealers and attempt to set up deals? It seems I already have a volunteer. My impression is that some dealers do ship illegally, but the vast majority of these transactions appear to be between hobbyists. If the hobbyist or dealer is discovered by elected "sting" participant, we could start a thread here discussing it. It's an idea.

Another idea is establishing an effective deterrent. I also want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and it seems like a hardass approach, but should we allow a second chance for first time offenders? I'm curious about this because appropriate and legal methods of transport is one of the first thing every venomous enthusiast learns. Is it unrealistic to assume that when someone gets popped that the word will travel fast that "it's not something to do."? The approach seems harsh, but so are accidental injuries. Again, this is just another way of looking at it.

Earl H. Turner said:
Several years ago, I received a 7' Central American Bushmaster in a cardboard " Banana box" that had open slits on the side...the snake came in via Delta Dash and was marked IGUANA--HARMLESS LIZARD !!!! The shipment was at the baggage counter at the Internal Airport. When I saw the package, I almost sh*T. I called the man who shipped the snake to me and he acted as though it was not a big deal----someone could have been easily bitten by that snake--there were finger slots all over the sides of the box----I never purchased another snake from that individual. The irresponsible individual who shipped the Bushmaster to me was Dean Ripa. E.Turner

Holy Irresponsibility, Batman (Mr. Turner

)! Let's play a game of "Name that PUNISHMENT!" For reference, if your claim is true, and if he was caught, here's what he could be dealing with.

(d) Criminal penalties.

(1) Any person who--

(A) knowingly imports or exports any fish or wildlife or plants in violation of any provision of this Act (other than subsections (b) and (d) of section 3 [16 USCS §§ 3372(b), (d)]), or

(B) violates any provision of this Act (other than subsections (b) and (d) of section 3) [16 USCS §§ 3372(b), (d)]) by knowingly engaging in conduct that involves the sale or purchase of, the offer of sale or purchase of, or the intent to sell or purchase, fish or wildlife or plants with a market value in excess of $ 350, knowing that the fish or wildlife or plants were taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of, or in a manner unlawful under, any underlying law, treaty or regulation, shall be fined not more than $ 20,000, or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both. Each violation shall be a separate offense and the offense shall be deemed to have been committed not only in the district where the violation first occurred, but also in any district in which the defendant may have taken or been in possession of the said fish or wildlife or plants.

(2) Any person who knowingly engages in conduct prohibited by any provision of this Act (other than subsections (b) and (d) of section 3) [16 USCS §§ 3372(b), (d)]) and in the exercise of due care should know that the fish or wildlife or plants were taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of, or in a manner unlawful under, any underlying law, treaty or regulation shall be fined not more than $ 10,000, or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both. Each violation shall be a separate offense and the offense shall be deemed to have been committed not only in the district where the violation first occurred, but also in any district in which the defendant may have taken or been in possession of the said fish or wildlife or plants.

(3) Any person who knowingly violates section 3(d) [16 USCS § 3372(d)]--

(A) shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both, if the offense involves--

(i) the importation or exportation of fish or wildlife or plants; or

(ii) the sale or purchase, offer of sale or purchase, or commission of an act with intent to sell or purchase fish or wildlife or plants with a market value greater than $ 350; and

(B) shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned for not more than 1 year, or both, if the offense does not involve conduct described in subparagraph (A).

(e) Permit sanctions. The Secretary may also suspend, modify, or cancel any Federal hunting or fishing license, permit, or stamp, or any license or permit authorizing a person to import or export fish or wildlife or plants (other than a permit or license issued pursuant to the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act of 1976), or to operate a quarantine station or rescue center for imported wildlife or plants, issued to any person who is convicted of a criminal violation of any provision of this Act or any regulation issued hereunder. The Secretary shall not be liable for the payments of any compensation, reimbursement, or damages in connection with the modification, suspension, or revocation of any licenses, permits, stamps, or other agreements pursuant to this section.

HISTORY: (Nov. 16, 1981, P.L. 97-79, § 4, 95 Stat. 1074; Dec. 22, 1980, P.L. 96-561, Title II, Part C, Subpart 2, § 238(b), 94 Stat. 3300; Nov. 14, 1988, P.L. 100-653, Title I, §§ 102, 103, 100 Stat. 3825, 3826; Sept. 30, 1996, P.L. 104-208, Div A, Title I, § 101(a) [Title II, § 211(b)], 110 Stat. 3009-41.)

I think this is just another reason to turn someone in. Nobody wants to see anyone get penalized, but when these kind of irresponsible acts occur (if allowed to continue) the question is not "if", but "when" will someone innocent (carrier) get zapped.

It would be nice if other members of the venomous community chimed in on this thread.

Sean P.

snakegetters · Jan 23, 2005

alvaro said:
I agree. There are people among us that don’t care at all about putting at risk other people’s lives. Not only that of the carriers, but they also sell poisonous snakes to minors and other people that don’t have a clue about how to keep them. Those are at an even greater risk than the carrier’s employees.

Car dealers also sell automobiles to people who are lousy drivers, or irresponsible drunken drivers. Any suggestions as to what we could do about that without infringing significantly on everyone's privacy and freedom? I would rather not live in an Orwellian society.

I agree that people's rights to own inherently dangerous things should be limited at the point that they are endagering other people. But captive venomous snakes, unlike automobiles, have an incredibly good safety record as far as not being a danger to anyone but their voluntary owners and handlers.

A woman died a few months ago bitten by her “pet”, a Bothrops alternatus. Don’t get me wrong, I also like (and respect) venomous snakes. But my rights to keep them end exactly where those of the safeness of my neighbor start.

These two facts don't make a conclusion. A woman who chose to keep venomous snakes was bitten by one. That's what happens sometimes to people who choose to take risks in order to enrich their lives. You cannot conclude that her neighbors were at risk.

The number of innocent bystanders and neighbors who have ever been bitten by someone else's captive venomous snake approaches zero, and in fact may be zero. I'm aware of a few reports, but one was proven false, another has no support evidence and may be false, and the most recent one from Florida involving the tiny, bright colored burrowing snake that supposedly climbed up into a bed to bite a sleeping child is remarkably implausible. No one who has kept Aspidelaps could be easily convinced that the kid wasn't playing with the snake on purpose. A scenario like that is a bad one, but it is fundamentally about the parents' responsibility to keep dangerous but pretty and tempting things locked up.

The press tore the woman with the Bothrops apart and made a lot of insinuations that the snakes were running around the house loose. From what I heard through a less sensationalist source, the house roaming reptiles were iguanas. The venomous snakes were secured in cages.

Self policing is the way to go. Maybe it will backfire on us, if it does happen so be it. On the other hand maybe we will be respected because we act responsibly.

I agree that illegal shipping is a serious problem that we need to address within our community, but so is demonizing venomous snakes as a huge risk to the neighbors. Standards of secure and responsible keeping are important for all reptiles, since it is neither humane for the snakes nor good for the ecosystem if any non native animals are allowed to escape. But the historical safety record says that venomous snakes cannot be considered a significant threat to anyone but their owners.

This is not to say that a bad scenario could never happen. It could, and as responsible keepers we should do what we can to use good safety protocol in housing and handling our animals. We should also focus on educating people realistically about what the risks actually are, instead of buying into the exaggerated panic that the uneducated person feels at the idea of being anywhere near a venomous snake.

Venomous snakes don't have wings to fly. Their fangs don't drip human blood and they don't have passkeys on their tails to pick bedroom locks with. They do not have an unerring instinct that directs them to the nearest nunnery or orphanage to slaughter the innocent. We herpers all know this and think this is very funny, but the average person on the street believes things about venomous snakes that are remarkably silly, and that doesn't help our legal climate either.

The BoidSmith · Jan 23, 2005

Just for starters!

Monacle cobra for sale in Reptimart. Buyer chooses method of shipping? Shipper should state the only possible shipping method is Delta.

Regards

The BoidSmith · Jan 23, 2005

This one is either willing to loose money on shipping or...

Delta charges $70 and above, wooden boxes are close $30. So shipping charges are $45?

The BoidSmith · Jan 23, 2005

This one is even worse...

It could be sold to a minor for that matter.

The BoidSmith · Jan 23, 2005

I agree that illegal shipping is a serious problem that we need to address within our community, but so is demonizing venomous snakes as a huge risk to the neighbors.

Tanith,

No one is proposing a ban on keeping poisonous snakes. We are just concerned about irresponsible shipping. Take a look at the examples above. Should a buyer be the one to choose a shipping method for a monacle cobra? Look at the "offer" on the coral snake. What if it goes to a minor?

Regards.

snakegetters · Jan 23, 2005

alvaro said:
No one is proposing a ban on keeping poisonous snakes. We are just concerned about irresponsible shipping. Take a look at the examples above. Should a buyer be the one to choose a shipping method for a monacle cobra? Look at the "offer" on the coral snake. What if it goes to a minor?

Yes, the examples you're pointing to above are pretty egregious and deserve the attention of their local Fish and Wildlife authorities. I was just pointing out that one of our arguments against irresponsible shipping methods should *not* be that captive venomous snakes are a huge risk to the neighbors. We can come up with factually better reasons that aren't damaging to the herp community.

I am not personally of the opinion that 18 is a magic age that bestows adult level responsibility and maturity. There are a few 16 and 17 year olds whom I would trust to care properly for a coral snake, and a lot of 30 and 40 year olds whom I wouldn't. But in general I agree that "minor buys venomous snake from irresponsible dealer, minor gets bitten" is a potentially bad scenario for our community. It's not a good idea for a dealer to sell to minors for that specific reason.

The BoidSmith · Jan 23, 2005

I was just pointing out that one of our arguments against irresponsible shipping methods should *not* be that captive venomous snakes are a huge risk to the neighbors. We can come up with factually better reasons that aren't damaging to the herp community.

We agree on that. We don't want to come across as being against hots. Nothing further from the truth. But we need to find a way to avoid illegal shipping. As someone said it's a matter of time that an "accident" happens, and then it will be too late to say we are sorry. I'm still puzzled by the ad of the coral snake and I'm wandering if it is not the ad posted by serpentboy78 that was discussed in the BOI. There were some copperheads posted for sale too.

Regards.

SPZOOLOGICAL · Jan 23, 2005

Can you post a link to the ad? I am very suspicious that it's him. I don't expect him to come here and admit. That ad is an outrage! Seems to be that it encourages underage youths to buy. We all know he sent a box under the alias, "Joseph Scales". The username on the file for the particular ad, is "david". There is no way of knowing for sure. Do you see any familiarities w/ the writing style in the ad and Mike Clark? I suspect the vendor in this case would fork over the $10 and send it via ground currier.

Hi TT! Nice to see you. I read the thread you started. Sorry for the trouble. Hope you get it worked out soon.

Take care,

Sean

Earl H. Turner · Jan 23, 2005

Bad shipping---I was really upset.

Sean....Not only did this happen but at that time, Delta was closed on weekends at San Antonio Int'l Airport soooo--there was the Bushmaster at the baggage counter with people everywhere including a police officer. The baggage clerk or manager asked me if a snake was in there as he heard a "RATTLE" !! I asked him how that happened and his reply was that he stuck his fingers inside the box and touched the bag which was visible through the handling slits on the side of the "banana box" ( had logo w/ bananas on it and the company name, address, etc.) He said that the snake moved and started "making a rattle-like" sound . Damn, I was scared and at the same time mad as hell that that idiot would be so irresponsible. I had to think fast as there was some attention focused on myself and the "Live Iguana--Harmless Lizard" box---I told the manager that it was a Rasp-tailed Iguana--I had to make up something. When, I got home (173 miles later), I called Ripa--after heated words--his comment was, well nobody was bitten and you got your snake !!!! I never dealt with him again----what an irresponsible individual !!!! Think of this----WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED HAD A BITE OCCURRED !!!!???? To this day, I cannot believe that a person could have that mindset....Earl Turner

SPZOOLOGICAL · Jan 23, 2005

Earl H. Turner said:
I told the manager that it was a Rasp-tailed Iguana--I had to make up something.

AH ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

WTF is a "Rasp-tailed Iguana"? No wait....lemme guess "Iguana raspicaudalis" lol.

Yea, I'd be pretty HOT too, and I would defintely be infuriated! Everyone was at risk at that time (legal, safety, etc) When did this happen?

Sean

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