steve osborne of Professional(?) Breeders

Hello all,

I just wanna share an ongoing experience.
Steve Osborne of Professional (?) Breeders...
I bought a pair of Het Albino Ball Pythons from him in 1999.
He seemed like a nice enough guy talking to him on the phone.
He stated that he had an excellent customer service history.
He even told me of a person that wasn't happy with the coloration of the snake they purchased and he sent them another one after they had it for a year.
So I wasn't woried to send $2500 to the "professional breeders"
I recieved the pythons in August and from the "get go"
the female didn't eat well at all.  The male eats live mice and rats (sparingly on frozen thawed) and is doing fine.
Anyway, I had contacted him shortly after I had gotten the pythons about the fact the female wasn't eating.

He said to give them time because it takes awhile for them to become aclimated to there new surroundings.
He has more experience than I do so I took his word on it and kept trying all methods and food types to get the female to eat regularly (she ate and eats about 1 in 8 meals offered).
Well, about 6 months of fustration later I give him another call to tell him the female still wasn't eating well and at that point hadn't eaten for 2 months.
His responce was that ball pythons sometimes go through fasting period and that she would come around.
I should have asked for a replacement them, but I was gullible and took his word for it again.

She finally ate a live mouse a month after I had last contacted him about the fact.

She ate the usual about 1 in 8 meals offered untill October 2001.  She quit eating at this point and went off feeding for 9 months.  Hell of a fast if you ask me!  

I TRIED to contact him in June of 2002 by email, phone, and fax about the female not eating for 8 months (at the time).
He ignored me!!!!
I resent my concern to him over and over and over by all methods discribed above to no avail.
Finally I got the sneeky idea to give him a call and leave a message (since he doesn't answer the phone) that I was interested in some snakes.  I left this message annomously with only my Phone # to contact me back.

Guess what, he called me back thinking person "X" wanted to buy some snakes.  Well, I  let him know who I was and what my problem was.  He proceeded to tell me it wasn't his problem and that he didn't care.  I asked for a replacement and he laughed at me! I was in the middle of eating in a restaurant so I couldn't get too loud.
I asked really nice for any compensation and he said if he knew that I would be a "problem" that he wouldn't have even sold me the snakes.
Pissed to no extent, I couldn't even come back with a rebuttle.
All I could say was thanks for nothing and then hung up on him.
The female weighs about 700 grams and is 3 years old!
What a crock!
I contacted a lawyer and I was told it would be his word against mine.
I don't have the money to sue him.
So I tell my story to all so that maybe someone may save themselves headache by NOT BUYING ANYTHING FROM STEVE OSBORNE OR PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS!

Feel free to contact me Steve <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
Do me right and I'll shut up!
My name is Geoff Stricker.
I should be in your records still.

Geoff,

From what is worth I believe the Osborne's have among the best albino genetics around and from what I have heard a good customer support. I have been in touch with Steve lately because I want to buy one female from his stock. He has been courteous in our e-mail and phone conversations.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He said to give them time because it takes awhile for them to become aclimated to there new surroundings.
He has more experience than I do so I took his word on it and kept trying all methods and food types to get the female to eat regularly (she ate and eats about 1 in 8 meals offered).
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

What Steve told you about ball pythons is absolutely right (you have probably figured it out yourself after these 3 years). The slightest change in their environment, and they might go off feed even within your place, not to mention when going to someone else's house/management. Even offering live rodents too or of inadequate size for the animal in question can often trigger a non-feeding response.

Although this might be more appropriate for the discussion forum, maybe you could give us some details on how are you housing/handling your pythons. This should be relevant to establish if there might be a problem other than the snake being a finnicky eater.

Best regards,

Daniel

Hi Geoff,

In response to your post I will take this opportunity to publicly state again what I stated to you on the phone in June of this year.  It is this:

When I enter into a sale agreement with an individual there are several important items that are a condition of that sale. On my side I am agreeing to providing 100% correctly represented high end quality animals with the following written guarantees:

1) All offspring will be shipped or delivered in individual labeled containers indicating species, sex, and with an identification number of the parental I.D. and genetic line. All offspring are 100% guaranteed correctly sexed. Single males or females and male-multiple female combinations (trios, etc.) may be available for each variety.

2) Live arrival of healthy specimens is guaranteed. For air cargo insurance purposes, confirmation of live arrival must be conducted at the air cargo office at time of pick-up and any problems reported to the air cargo agent. We must be notified within 10 days of arrival if there is a problem with a specimen in order to replace the specimen or refund your money at your discretion. All air freight charges necessary for a replacement or refund will be paid by Professional Breeders®.

 These guarantees do place a level of responsibility on me the seller and you the purchaser to accept them at face value and abide by them as a condition of the transaction.  I am fully prepared to honor these guarantees within the stated parameters including the 10 day guarantee statement. I am also expecting that you as the purchaser understand the limits of these guarantees and accept those limits as a condition of the purchase.  
 
 The primary reason for a limitation on the time guarantee is the release of control of the animals to the new owner's care and the time extent that I am willing to risk in providing that guarantee with the animals under the new owner's care.  Ultimately the female is not performing to your growth rate expectations.  It could  be something inherently wrong with the female, it may be the way in which you are caring for her.  There is no way to really know.

 
You made no attempt within the 10 day guarantee period to request a refund or replacement.  You did request suggestions on how to enhance feeding performance which in turn I explained all that I know about Ball Python feeding behavior.

 The grief that you now have is that I am unwilling to extend that original guarantee, the one that you understood at the time of purchase, and now are wanting to extend because things did not work out the way that you wanted them to.

  I did not return your calls in this third year since you had stated on the first in a series of those recorder messages that you were looking for/expecting compensation and I did not really want to take the next step. The next step is exactly what I had to say to you on the phone which is that I would not have sold the hetero pair to you in the first place if I knew that you would attempt to or feel righteous about extending the guarantee when things did not work out the way you wanted on the growth rate of the hetero female.  Not a cool thing to do on your part in my opinion and somewhat embarrassing to have to even point out on the phone or here again but there it is.

Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS

Well,

I acknowledge the fact that you have a written policy that is a 10 day period in which
to express your concerns if a snake isn't to up to your standards,etc.
First, 10 days isn't even the length of time of a quarantine.

The snakes I sell have a 30 day written guarantee on them.
This is usually extended indefinitely under most circumstances.
I know how hatchlings can be.  So should you, you have hatched more than I have.  Especially with ball pythons.

This is my policy, not yours...obviously.  Written anyway.

I , the naive, listened to you say how good your customer policy was.  I really didn't heed to the idea of your written policy since you stated otherwise, verbally.

I ultimately look at it this way.
I didn't approach you in a vicious manner.
My request was fair.
All I asked for was a hatchling replacement for a very, very, very, picky eater.
You ignored my request.
I could ALMOST understand if you couldn't feasibly replace it, but you produce how many hets.?  I'm sure enough to replace my one, single, female.

And you flat ignored me until I HAD TO misrepresent myself to get you to call me back.

Given the female eats very occasionally, but I purchased from you for fine genetics(in theory a snake that would at least eat worth a #$@&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> and your verbally stated satisfaction guarantee.
I guess you didn't guarantee it in writing so I shouldn't have expected it in any way, shape, or form..........right?

Of course there is no practical way to prove it, but I have 4 other ball pythons kept under the same conditions and they are healthy aggressive feeders that have growth over par.

It is a principle matter.
You don't live up to your reputation( I know you don't guarantee that either)!
I should be embarrassed?!?!

Face it...you misrepresented your intentions!

I will still warn all that I come across of my experience with you in a factual manner.
Basically...BUYER BEWARE

Just think.......if you replace my snake, like you insinuated you would if this problem arose, I can tell everyone that Ol' Steve replaced a problem feeder.  It was a hassle but at least
he replaced it.
And I would be a satisfied customer and negative word of mouth could and would no longer be righteously spread.

Geoff Stricker,
angry customer

It is very normal and common for a female to go off food for that period of time at that age. You are making the situation worse by constantly offering her food. She may be ovulating, cycling or preparing to hibernate. If she does not eat you need to leave her alone and not bother her. Increasing her stress level by constantly being in her area when she is not eating is making things worse. I am not saying a thing about Steve except that what you quoted him as saying was true and that this is normal. An adult ball can go a VERY long time without food and not suffer for it. I think that if you want the satisfaction of an animal that eats every time you offer it food you need to get a burmese python, a kingsnake or something else. That is just not what ball pythons do. Evan Stahl

OK,

I'm not the Jedi Master of ball python rearing.

I am not in the snakes area and offering it food all the time.

I am not stressing the animal un-needingly.

I can raise a frickin ball python if it is to be risen.

I am well versed in most methods of rearing common snakes.
If the other 4 ball pythons I have could talk I'm sure they would give my husbandry a good review.

The problem is that steve verbally lied.

And he wasn't even forward enough to try and contact me back to see truly what the problem was.

He chose to ignore it hoping it would go away, I guess.

If he meant if with in 10 days you don't contact me back about dissatisfaction your SOL, I guess he needs to make it a little more clear.
Not make other insinuations of a fabulous claim that he will not honor.

Anyone else wanna try to defend Steve?

I'll blow holes in your defense like swiss cheese!
No offence.

Geoff Stricker
Angry customer

Oh Yea,

I doubt the snake is ovulating at @700 grams and not being brumated, never introduced to a male either.
She never has eaten well at all through the course of her entire life.  
I have kept balls for awhile, I know of their infamous fast.
They usally don't loose much if any weight during a normal fast.  This snake went for 9 months without eating.
I haven't even seen a stubborn old wild caught ball go off feeding that long once they have been started!

Geoff Stricker,
Angry Customer

Ok first off,  His terms were clearly stated, you agreed to them at the time, and regardless if he stated that he gave another customer a replacement snake becuase they were not happy with the color does not mean that is his standard practice.  I have set terms and that is what I abide by. Not to say that I have not gone above my stated terms for some of my customers I have but it is not an automatic thing.  Everyone that has ever dealt with Ball Pythons knows they can be problematic feeders throughout their lives. It is a sad thing that the snake is finicky about eating and is not growing at a great rate of speed, but she is still healthy and doing well.

Geoff,

I don't know Steve, and I am not rying to defend him in any way.  However, the fact is that you are not due any type of refund or replacement because he fulflled his guarantees to the fullest extent of his written promises.  You may very well believe that Steve should offer a longer guarantee as you do to your customers, but he doesn't, and you accepted that fact when you paid him the money for your snake.

Another fact by your own admission is that this snake is eating.  While she is not the power feeder your other BPs seem to be, she is eating, and that is quite a bit for a BP that's been off her feed for nine months.  It is not Steve's fault that she is not eating as you think she should.  If you were not satisfied with her eating response (as you say you were not from the beginning), you should have dealt with the issue within the 10 guarantee period, not the better part of a year later.

If your lawyer told you that your only problem to a suit is that it would be your word against Steve's, you may want to get a different lawyer!  Even if one were to completely grant EVERYTHING you claim about the snake and the transaction, you still have no case.  The guarantee is over and has been for more than nine months.  No one in their right mind is going to be forced to replace that animal now, and your trickery would have made me reject any thoughts I might have had of going beyond that guarantee requirement in your case if you were a customer of mine.  You may have thought you had no choice but to lie, but that is just you rationalizing the fact that you lied.

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

This is just my 2 cents.  I don't know either parties and don't try to defend anyone.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The problem is that steve verbally lied.

And he wasn't even forward enough to try and contact me back to see truly what the problem was.

He chose to ignore it hoping it would go away, I guess.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Geoff,
What did Steve verbally lie?  Did he said he guarantee his animal for 1 year?  2 year?  Lifetime guarantee?

And you don't need to guess, he stated the reason why he didn't answer your call
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I did not return your calls in this third year since you had stated on the first in a series of those recorder messages that you were looking for/expecting compensation and I did not really want to take the next step. The next step is exactly what I had to say to you on the phone which is that I would not have sold the hetero pair to you in the first place if I knew that you would attempt to or feel righteous about extending the guarantee when things did not work out the way you wanted on the growth rate of the hetero female. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I could ALMOST understand if you couldn't feasibly replace it, but you produce how many hets.?  I'm sure enough to replace my one, single, female.

Just think.......if you replace my snake, like you insinuated you would if this problem arose, I can tell everyone that Ol' Steve replaced a problem feeder.  It was a hassle but at least
he replaced it.
And I would be a satisfied customer and negative word of mouth could and would no longer be righteously spread.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Did Steve insinuate that he would replace his animal if feeding problem arose?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Geoff Stricker,
Angry Customer</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Sure you are...  Should I say SELLER BEWARE!!!  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Well now you have made your intentions clear. You just want to bash Osbourne. You are 100% wrong about everything else you posted ball python expert. I have seen adult balls go up to 2 years without eating! A 700 gram female can ovulate! A female does not need to be introduced to male to ovulate! Etc, etc, etc. Read a book or watch a video before you shoot off your mouth. I am not the world's top ball python expert, but the fact that I have 200 compared to your 4, I do have more experience. Evan Stahl

Exactly what is it that you are trying to say Fred? Industries can't suck. They are what they are. People can suck. Some do and some don't just like in any other industry. What's wrong with fancy pricelists and brokered animals? It would be a much smaller industry without those two things but neither apply to this thread. Evan Stahl

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Sorry, but nothing in this message was pertinent to this thread.  If you have something to say about one of the people posting messages here, please start your own thread about him/her.

Thanks,

WebSlave
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Greetings,

Jürgen Chlebowy
===================
ReptileTopSites.com

Just me running my mouth some more...

I'm not bashing steve. Just telling of my experiences with him...FACTUALLY!

Written...Written...Written...Written...Written...
WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO A PERSONS WORD?
I TRY BY EVERY MEANS POSSIBLE TO HOLD UP TO MINE!
I GUESS I HOLD OTHERS TO TOO HIGH OF A STANDARD!?

Steve implied there was an indefinet guarantee on my recieving a snake that would at least eat.  Nothing in writing of course.

Don't forget, I contacted him WELL before the 3 year mark we are at now.

I don't give a s..t how many snakes you have <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
Evan, looks like you have a few problems of your own.
It isn't in the #'s anyway.
I didn't state what I said as fact when I said "I doubt the snake is ovulating at @700 grams and not being brumated, never introduced to a male either."  I said I DOUBT IT!

THe snake is a poor quality speciman. PERIOD.
"JUNK SOLD TO ME BY PROFESSIONAL (?) BREEDERS!




I would replace the snakes if it were me in steve's shoes.
It is just good customer relations.
If some one buys a snake from me they will receive a snake that will eat and prosper or I'll refund the money or send them another snake.  I don't care if it is a $10 dollar snake or a $1000 snake.  No skin off my back to help out a customer.  I'm not in it for the money like some.
So...

to respond to AztecFred:

The "industry" side of it does suck!!! A big 'ol piece of donkey meat!
Hobbiest are fine <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
I guess that is who I'll deal with from now on!
Too bad my $2500 went in to fueling the "machine".


If I offended anyone in this post...GOOD!
I just now know who has proper morals...and who doesn't!

AND I NEVER CLAIMED I WAS AN EXPERT <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>
BUT I'M NOT A MORON EITHER!
I BOW TO THEE...AND YOUR 200 SNAKES.

The snake is surviving, but it is not thriving. Why spend money on a captive born animal if it is not thriving? Who would choose to do that? Doesn't the seller have some obligation to insure that the supposedly "genetically superior", captive born animals he/she sells are going to do better than just "survive"? Are customers supposed to be buying with the understanding that their investment is actually gambling? If so then the terms should include a statement that says  "Not all snakes that I sell do well and if the one you just purchased doesn't then it's your problem not mine.".  Might as well go buy a wild-caught from an importer since most of us can get them to at least "survive". Or if you want to have hets  then buy them from the cheapest seller you can find if you have to gamble on them "surviving" anyway. Hell, with force feeding I can make any snake "survive". But that is not what he paid for is it? Would any quality breeder want to use this animal in their breeding program even if you could do so? Steve has certainly protected himself with his terms of sale but a quality seller would be able to see that this is a gray area where additional support would be appropriate. This is just my 1.5 cents of opinion.

Quote by Geoff Stricker:

"Steve implied there was an indefinet guarantee on my recieving a snake that would at least eat.  Nothing in writing of course."

 

Some additional information to ponder reference the above quote:


 The hetero female Ball Python in question was sold to Geoff as a 1999 hatchling in 1999.  Our hatchling heterozygous albino Ball Pythons have had at least 5 individual feedings prior to shipping. The average weight of a hatchling Ball Python with 5 feedings is approximately 80 grams.  I do guarantee that all of the Ball Pythons will feed for the receiving individual.   Geoff's 3 year old hetero female that he is requesting an extension of or an indefinite guarantee on feeding performance now weighs 700 grams. The female does feed.  This female is not in "survival status" .  She simply is not growing according to the expectations of Geoff, and these growth rate expectations were not revealed to me during any time at the point of purchase in 1999 by Geoff.  

 Geoff knows all of this, but he is inferring that since I am a "big breeder", that I should satisfy his self-made guarantee extension.  As a matter of principal I do not reward what I consider bad behavior (not in my workplace, kids at home, or my commercial breeding business).  In my opinion, Geoff is displaying bad behavior and just like the individuals on the selling side that are here on the BOI under the category of "buyer beware" , Geoff Stricker is a "Seller Beware" candidate.

This is a rare occurance from what I have experienced from the customers we have had.

Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS

Dear Evan Stahl,

Answering your question you posted above:"Whats wrong with fancy price lists and brokered animals?"

Well Evan......sometimes everything that seems glossy and clean is actually dirty and quite insincere.
Mistakes......snakes that die in shipment.....snakes that refuse to eat...these things could happen to anyone, myself, you , anyone...


But, in this BUSINESS, IMAGE is everything
Colorfull fliers, eye popping websites, beautifull booths at shows...all IMAGE.
Not necessarily SUBSTANCE.
You know what substance is Evan dont you?

Substance is an inherent quality in any given person that they will TRY to do whatever is right in any given situation.
Sometimes it is not that easy to do this, not easy to keep everybody happy. But you have to try....

Brokered animals?
I could write VOLUMES on this one.
But, suffice to say that there are only a handfull of brokers I would EVER buy anything from nationwide.
That leaves about 200 I wouldnt buy a can of black flag mite spray from, let alone an animal.
That means that they will sell there WARES to someone else,
usually without keeping it for very long, usually without knowing to much of thesnakes history or habits or even if it feeds.  Go figure..
Whats wrong with brokered snakes?
The people brokering them, thats what.

Sometimes brokering is sheatherd and hidden in facy pricelists and pretty websites.
But it is still the same thing.

Want to know the BEST purchaseing experience I have witnessed this year?

A friend of mine bought a Captive bred, Captive born, yellowhead Retic from Notah Howe. Notah has no booth at the shows, no fancy website, and no ads in the magazines or glossy flyers to promote his "product"
thats because it isnt his PRODUCT but his passion and his hobby. The snake arrived healthy, and looked just like the pics, and it has grown and gotten more beautiful day by day.
Notah was always there to answer questions and give advice.

In short:

A HOBBYIST that breeds the snakes, not for some big monetary gain or to offset his huge advertisemtn costs, but JUST BECAUSE HE IS ENAMOURED WITH THE SNAKE ITSELF.

Quality serpents. Small, wellmanaged collections.
Excellent before and after the sale treatment of the customer.

*THIS* is the standard we all should be shooting for Evan, in my opinion..

Sure would be less of "Us" around if that was true eh?
And frankly, it would be a better hobby
*These are just my opinions, you are entitled to your own*

                       Sincerely,

                    Fred Albury
                    (Aztec Reptiles)

Fred,

 You seem angry.....


  I am not aware of individuals/businesses that are in a primarily brokering position that have "Colorfull fliers, eye popping websites, beautifull booths at shows...all IMAGE.
Not necessarily SUBSTANCE. "

 In my experience the only individuals/businesses that are in the financial position to pay for the costs of the type of advertising you mentioned are producing the vast majority of what they offer for sale themselves.  The ability to produce stock well and advertise well are usually joined at the hip.

 Who is operating in the category you describe?

Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS