What constitutes "bona fide research and educational purposes?"

I've been wondering about this for a while now, and my searches here haven't turned anything up. I know the law for turtles under 4" is that they are for research and educational purposes, but what exactly does it take for that to apply? I was at a show/swap recently, and noticed that vendors selling baby turtles had a sign-up sheet that said, "I agree that turtles under 4" in length are for educational and research purposes." or something like that. There had to have been 30+ names signed on the sheet. Something makes me think that research scientists and biology professors don't go looking at a reptile swap for their specimens... especially 30 of them.

What I would like to know is whether or not anyone has had their claim for research/educational purposes denied. For example, if I'm studying chelonians in my biology class, is that a "bona fide" purpose? What if I'm writing a book about the captive care of leopard tortoises? Would that justify my possession of hatchling G. pardalis?

I know what the law states, and I know why it was enacted; I am just curious as to people's experiences with interpretations of the law. Thanks in advance.

Well Paul, This isn't going to help you much but I would say that research or educational purposes is something that 99% of the turtles under 4" are not sold for.

Steve

sschind said:

Well Paul, This isn't going to help you much but I would say that research or educational purposes is something that 99% of the turtles under 4" are not sold for.

Steve

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Steve, that's pretty much what I'm thinking, I guess I'm just curious as to how strictly this law is enforced. I know it seems that they keep pretty close tabs on pet stores (around here, anyway) but if I buy a baby sulcatta or something, do I need to live in fear of the authorities busting down my door and confiscating my entire collection? If they're worried about me getting salmonella from a <4" turtle, they should turn their attention back to the restaurant where I actually DID get salmonella poisoning from.

When I'm working with my animals, I'm honestly washing my hands AT LEAST every 1/2 hour... more often if I'm feeding. Even though I always wash my hands before eating ANYWHERE (seriously, I think I'm two steps away from being clinically OCD...) I have no control over the sanitation practices at restaurants. When I spoke with the health dept. after my near-death run in with salmonella poisoning last year, they told me that they don't investigate until they have MULTIPLE reports from the same establishment within a certain time-frame. That to me is absurd.

The 4" thing is bull. Any reptile (as far as I understand) can carry and transmit salmonella. Sure, the law was originally made to protect kids from putting baby turtles in their mouths or whatever, but I think a little education and PARENTAL SUPERVISION would yield much better results.



Sorry, I know I got off on a ranting tangent. It's just that if there's going to be such laws (especially against the reptile community... I know I'm biased) there should be clearer descriptions and regulated enforcement.

I'm going to bed.

My wife and I have commented on this at several of the shows we have done in the past. We would see some kids buying baby turtles from a vendor and make the comment "Geez! Scientists are getting younger every year, aren't they?"

PaulSage said:

PARENTAL SUPERVISION

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Is this a new movement that hasn't quite caught on yet.

Its a little better for me now that the tanning salon/nails place moved away from next door. Not many people drag their kids to a physical therapy session. Before I was beginning to think I might need a day care license.

Where did you see the notice with the signatures. The only swap I am familiar with in our area is Lee's and I have never seen a sign up sheet. Was it at the Madison one. I wouldn't know because I will never attend that show as a vendor or a customer.

Steve

P.S. Webslave, thanks for the spell check

Does "I want to see how long it takes my kid to kill the turtle" constitute "bona fide research and educational purposes"?

I sell turtles under 4" occasionally and I was told by PA FGW that its not required of me to prove who is or isnt a bona fide educator or scientist. I am required to keep all documentation on any person claiming to be an educator purchsing any turtle under 4" and I am required prior to purchase and at time of sale to inform the customer that turtles under 4" are for educational purposes only. I also ask that the customer agree in writing, by email if not in person, that they are purchasing a turtle under 4" for the sole purpose of education and that they are an educator.

I dont worry to much about Salmonella, it his brother Vinnymonella that worries me.

PaulSage said:

When I spoke with the health dept. after my near-death run in with salmonella poisoning last year,

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I apologize for making a joke of Salmonella in my previous post. I missed this part you posted completely and do not wish you to think your near-death experience is a joke to me.

I've had Salmonella poisoning and while I did not come anywhere near to actually dying......I would have welcomed death at the time. I rank that experience right up there with shingles.

Chuck, thanks much for the information.

Am I the only one who finds a little irony in the fact that educators are allowed to keep baby turtles? In kindergarten classrooms perhaps? Doesn't that put a class of 28 6-year-olds in the immediate vicinity of such a dangerous pathogen?!?

Okay, I'll bite... I have no idea what's behind the "Vinnymonella" joke...

PaulSage said:

Chuck, thanks much for the information.

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NP. I should also add that I received just about the same information from the NYS FGW as well.

PaulSage said:

Doesn't that put a class of 28 6-year-olds in the immediate vicinity of such a dangerous pathogen?!?

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It can, but thats assuming the children would be handling the turtle. Safe education can be achieved solely through observation and some careful handling by the educator. I cant think of any way a 6 year old student would be in immediate danger unless they were in actual contact with the turtle.

Last year, I also saw at the San Jose, CA reptile show baby turtles being sold with the same type of list you had to sign your name to. I questioned one of the vendors just out of my own curiosity about the 4 inch law and they said it did not apply to tortoises.

I also breed certain reptials and I buy and sell many other, today I had a baby sulcata up for sale and I had a young couple question me and I told them it was only for turtles...lol well stupid me tonight I was researching and read that it also includes tortoises. Is this true or has the law changed. And if the law hasnt changed, how are people so easily selling these tortoises.

Also a note on a method I had read that one pet supplier had sold the baby red eared sliders, the customer would buy all supplies associated with the turtle and they would give the turtle to them, making it a legal transaction.

If anyone could shed some light on the tortoise issue, please let me know. I have more requests to purchase, I just dont want the fines and problems.

well i'd like to say first, that having a turtle or tourtise that small shoudlnt be a problem if you know how to take care of it or learn how to take care of it and keep its area clan and wash your hands, and of course provide adult supervision when allowing little kids to play with them. i dont really like it when pet stores sell turtles any way, lots of them are so un-cared for and neglected. i think that if a store wants to cary a turtle it can only cary a small amount of turtles at a time and there should be certain regualtions about having a proper habitat set up, not just a dark box with a food dish. as long as the store/vendor or who ever is selling them has taken care of the turtle and ensured it has no illnesses or problems it should be elegable for sale! that way the stores will have no choice but to take care of them, if they arnt allowde to sell a sick pet then there isnt any profit for them.
(srr, evily ranting in this post )

gemdreamer said:

Last year, I also saw at the San Jose, CA reptile show baby turtles being sold with the same type of list you had to sign your name to. I questioned one of the vendors just out of my own curiosity about the 4 inch law and they said it did not apply to tortoises.

I also breed certain reptials and I buy and sell many other, today I had a baby sulcata up for sale and I had a young couple question me and I told them it was only for turtles...lol well stupid me tonight I was researching and read that it also includes tortoises. Is this true or has the law changed. And if the law hasnt changed, how are people so easily selling these tortoises.

Also a note on a method I had read that one pet supplier had sold the baby red eared sliders, the customer would buy all supplies associated with the turtle and they would give the turtle to them, making it a legal transaction.

If anyone could shed some light on the tortoise issue, please let me know. I have more requests to purchase, I just dont want the fines and problems.

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When the FDA says "turtle", they are indeed referring to both turtles and tortoises. Here is a page from the FDA's site that lists the regulations regarding the "4-inch law".
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=1240.62
...Note that in part (a) is where they define "turtle" as being any animals of the order Testudinata. Keep in mind that each state has the right to impose restrictions that do not interfere with the FDA's regulations, so I'd advise obtaining a copy of your state's regulations (usually through the DNR).

Maybe there are other provisions and exceptions that I am not aware of, so this post is solely based on the information I have obtained thus far.

My personal $.02 on this is that the law is just another attempt to protect our children, since many parents do NOT. As I understand it, the law was first written in 1970, and established the 4-inch rule because it would be harder for children to fit them into their mouths. What's next, banning puppies and kittens that bite just because they can transmit rabies?!