Wrong sex discovered 82 days after purchase...

I purchased a really nice baby Ball Python as a female for $275 back on the 12th of June, this year.    

I have now discovered that it is a male.

It's been less than 90 days.  Do you think that the seller should be responsible (let me return the animal and refund my money) since the animal was misrepresented?

BTW, the animal has quadrupled in bodyweight and is in PERFECT health.

Hi I am Sam Craver of Royal Propagation.  I am the seller of this animal to Anthony.  I recieved an email from Anthony today saying he sold the animal to another party, shipped the animal to this party, they sexed it and it turns up as a male.  I sold the animal to Anthony as a female as that is what it probed to be for me, my mistake.  I guarantee my animals for 48 hours.  If anyone has a problem with an animal they purchased form me, they need to contact me with the complaint within 48 hours of them recieving the animal.  Anthony contacts me 82 days later with his complaint, and after he had sold the animal to someone else and shipped the animal to someone else.  I am not here to try to get a not guilty verdict, I am just here stating my policy and giving you the whole story.  I am guilty of making a mistake in sexing the animal, it happens, but I am not going to be held responsible 3 months later and after is changed hands from Anthony to another buyer.  I also offered to resell the animal for Anthony and send him what ever comes in for it.  But after 3 months I will not refund any cash.

Thanks for your time, and thanks for reading.

Sam Craver
Royal Propagation

Anthony,

First off Once you sell an animal any guarantee between you and the person you purchased from are over. You are now the guarantor to your buyers and are the one responsible.
 I personally would have doubled checked the sex on the snake as soon as I received it myself to be sure. You had 48 hours to do any returns or file any complaints and did not therefore they have no liabilty in this situation. Their policy is 48 hours, you knew this policy and agreed to it. I am sorry that your snake turned up to be a male, but from what I gather it was a hatchling when you purchased it? Hatchling and small Ball Pythons are notorious hard to sex accurately until they get size and body weight on them.

You know Sam, I was trying to do you a favor and leave your name out of this, so as not to tarnish your reputation, simply because I liked you and you were a nice guy to deal with.  

I also think that's fairly generous of me after what happened just a couple weeks ago.  

The fact is, snakes don't change sex during shipping, no matter how many times they are shipped.  

Add to that, the snake is eating rats and is four times bigger than when I got it.  I think it's only fair that you make good on this.

The animal was misrepresented, plain and simple.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rob @ RK Reptiles @ Sep. 04 2002,13:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anthony,

First off Once you sell an animal any guarantee between you and the person you purchased from are over. You are now the guarantor to your buyers and are the one responsible.
 I personally would have doubled checked the sex on the snake as soon as I received it myself to be sure. You had 48 hours to do any returns or file any complaints and did not therefore they have no liabilty in this situation. Their policy is 48 hours, you knew this policy and agreed to it. I am sorry that your snake turned up to be a male, but from what I gather it was a hatchling when you purchased it? Hatchling and small Ball Pythons are notorious hard to sex accurately until they get size and body weight on them.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I did try popping the animal, and it appeared to be a female, but yes it was a hatchling, so I wanted to avoid probing it, because I trusted Sam's word.

I just wanted to get some opinions, because it is a shaky topic, and I wasn't sure what everyone thought about something of this nature.

I agree that it's been a long time, and yes, the animal has changed hands.  But, I'm not talking about a health guarantee...I'm talking about the animal not being what it was supposed to be.

I will tell the story of what happened a few weeks ago Anthony.  

Anthony had 4 female balls for sale on KS.com.  I emailed Anthony telling him I would take them, but I was out of town until the following Friday. Anthony said he would hold them for me if I was sure I could send him the money. While I was away, 2 money orders were supposed to me mailed to me for snakes I had sold.  When I got home no money had arrived, I immedietly emailed Anthony that I could not purchase the snakes due to the money for my snakes not showing up and I didnt have the funds to send Anthony.  Now I know I probably should not have emailed him saying I would take them without having the money in hand to send him, and I appologized many times for bailing out on that deal with him.  But what was I going to do if I didnt have the cash to send him now?

Anthony I am sorry about backing out on that deal, but I just didnt have the cash at that time to send you without the money orders not showing up.  I should have told you that and I again appologize for that, but this is a whole other can of worms.  And just for your information no money has still shown up and the snakes are still sitting here.

Sam Craver

Here's my 2 cents on the matter. Snakes being mis-sexed is so common in this business that it goes without saying. When you purchase a snake you have within the guaranteed time (usually 1-2 days) to ascertain the health and the sex of the animal. I have made this mistake and it reflects badly on the seller. When I get a snake in the first thing I do is look over the general appearance of the animal to make sure it looks and acts healthy. The second is sex the animal. I made the mistake of sending out a mis-sexed animal once and don't want to do it again. I got a snake in trade and turned around and sold it without checking the sex. I was the one who looked bad. It is the responsibility of the buyer to make sure they receive all that they expected within the alloted time frame. In this case Anthony I think the responsibility lies with you because of the time involved and the fact that you yourself also mis-sexed the animal. I am not trying to start a war here but you asked the question and I have to agree with Sam here.

Mike Jones

I would say no the original seller has no obligation to make good on a gender issue after the 48 hours, much less almost 3 months.  Probing is a very simple procedure and easily done within 48 hours either by the purchasor or a vet or other qualified person if the purchasor cannot probe his own animals.  Popping is notoriously inaccurate once the animal has any kind of age to it because the muscle control increases, preventing the popping of the hemipenes in males - causing an incorrect female assumption.  If I have purchased an animal that I intend to breed, I always check the gender myself by probing.  Even before I purchased my own set of probes and learned to do it myself, I took the animal to someone qualified and had them probe the animal in question.  Yes, mistakes can still be made with probing very young animals, that is just an inherent part of the hobby, but it is much less likely with probing versus popping.

Even with inaccurate sexing, misrepresentation is more in relation to health or genetic issues.  Mis-sexing is so prevalent, especially with hatchlings and neonates, that it hardly counts as misrepresentation in my book or that of the majority of other herpers.  It is just a given when purchasing young animals that you may or may not get what you thought.  Also, once the animal has been sold to another party, the original seller has no responsibility in that sale.  It is solely on the shoulders of the person currently selling that animal.  

Dianne

Anthony,

Ok did they say it was Guaranteed sexed 100% female? I doubt it very seriously they did. Popping is very dangerous to a snake, If you popped this snake and it popped as female then obviously you did something wrong if it now probing as male. If you popped it as female than that in itself let them off from any refund. You yourself say it popped as female so you were satisfied then and sold it as a female. Also You very well could have permanantly damaged the snake in the process of popping it. As for Hatchlings and babies/small Ball Pythons I visually sex them and have been 80+% correct. But I never sell them as 100% sexed animals either.  As far as him refunding you any money, I am sorry but after this amount of time it is not going to happen. It would not happen from any other dealer as well.

OK,

First off, nobody has to worry about starting any wars, as I don't feel strongly enough one way or the other to even argue it to that point.  This thread has told me all I was looking for.  I have never had this happen, and wanted to see what the general consensus was.  I was just imagining had this been a pastel, there would be about a $1,000 difference in price...that would definitely be a problem.

But,  I never claimed to be right or claimed Sam to be wrong...I just conveyed my thoughts on it, and let you guys decide.  This is why I didn't plan to bring Sam's name into this.  


So...fair enough, case closed.


Sam, you should've left well enough alone with the thing that happened a couple weeks ago.   I told you that I understood, but I wanted you to get the point that I left your name out of this, mainly because I think you're a good guy...even after this AND what happened a couple of weeks ago.  The point was, that I think you're an OK guy, and I was trying to avoid making others question your reputation here...and I still am.  

If we can ever do business again, I would not let either thing stand in the way...I'll just probe the animals upon arrival next time....twice. lol <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

No hard feelings?

I have one question.

Has anyone else sexed this snake yet. Or is this all because one person said it was a male.

Ball pythons are some of the hardest snakes to sex. Ask anyone who has done it. It takes alot of practice.

Has anyone thought maybe the second buyer had second thought about the purchase and wanted out so they said this is a male.

The way it sounds you never new for sure yourself the sex of the snake. That is where the problem lies.

Just my thoughts. I have had people who have bought animals from me and then said they were sexed wrong. But when they had thier vet check they were mistaken. It happens all the time.

Once you have a male you know it but females should be probed a few times to be sure. Just my thoughts on all this

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (franklinedwards60 @ Sep. 04 2002,15:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have one question.

Has anyone else sexed this snake yet. Or is this all because one person said it was a male.

Ball pythons are some of the hardest snakes to sex. Ask anyone who has done it. It takes alot of practice.

Has anyone thought maybe the second buyer had second thought about the purchase and wanted out so they said this is a male.

The way it sounds you never new for sure yourself the sex of the snake. That is where the problem lies.

Just my thoughts. I have had people who have bought animals from me and then said they were sexed wrong. But when they had thier vet check they were mistaken. It happens all the time.

Once you have a male you know it but females should be probed a few times to be sure. Just my thoughts on all this</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Well...If it were someone that I hadn't known prior to this, I'd probably think you were onto something.  But, it's someone that we've all probably heard of, and I don't think he's bother trying that.

Either way, I will be probing "it" for sure when I get the snake back.

Funny thing this topic came up.  I had an animal that was sexed by 2 different breeders/dealers.  The animal was thought to be female, represented as such and sold as same.  Almost 6 months later, I get a call on my answering machine @ 3:30 pm about it being a male.  I get home @ 4 pm usually.  So at 4: 05 I call him when I find out about the call.  No delay as its not my policy to leave my customers hanging for any reason even that long after a sale.  Before I get home and return his call, the buyer has posted on another forum about the situation.  Already starting a thread very similar to this one. Which he informed me of after we agreed to the resolution of this matter.   Boy I'm sure glad he was patient enough to wait for a return call before he posted.      I give a 30 day no if's, and's,  or buts 100% refund policy.

I showed this guy how to sex animals and I took his word for it being mis-sexed after he probed @ 6 months after the sale.  

Even though my policy clearly stated the 30 days only, I felt responsible based on his word over mine and another breeders.  So I offered him 2 things, first was to sell the animal for what we could get for it and make up any difference if it was a loss or to keep it an send him back $150 for a mistake.  

He opted for the money and got it via paypal ASAP.  

Would any of you go that far for that long and that much and take the word of a newbie sexer over your own and a trusted breeder?

I must say, I don't think this guy is a scammer or I would have NEVER sent him the money.  He is a descent guy.  My only beef is the lack of patience he had with the return call before he went a posting on the net, especially after the length of time from the sale.  I mean C'mon, 30 minutes?  

Anyway, all is resolved and that's how far I go for my customer service.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Happy Herpin

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Arboreals of the Rainforest @ Sep. 04 2002,16:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Funny thing this topic came up.  I had an animal that was sexed by 2 different breeders/dealers.  The animal was thought to be female, represented as such and sold as same.  Almost 6 months later, I get a call on my answering machine @ 3:30 pm about it being a male.  I get home @ 4 pm usually.  So at 4: 05 I call him when I find out about the call.  No delay as its not my policy to leave my customers hanging for any reason even that long after a sale.  Before I get home and return his call, the buyer has posted on another forum about the situation.  Already starting a thread very similar to this one. Which he informed me of after we agreed to the resolution of this matter.   Boy I'm sure glad he was patient enough to wait for a return call before he posted.      I give a 30 day no if's, and's,  or buts 100% refund policy.

I showed this guy how to sex animals and I took his word for it being mis-sexed after he probed @ 6 months after the sale.  

Even though my policy clearly stated the 30 days only, I felt responsible based on his word over mine and another breeders.  So I offered him 2 things, first was to sell the animal for what we could get for it and make up any difference if it was a loss or to keep it an send him back $150 for a mistake.  

He opted for the money and got it via paypal ASAP.  

Would any of you go that far for that long and that much and take the word of a newbie sexer over your own and a trusted breeder?

I must say, I don't think this guy is a scammer or I would have NEVER sent him the money.  He is a descent guy.  My only beef is the lack of patience he had with the return call before he went a posting on the net, especially after the length of time from the sale.  I mean C'mon, 30 minutes?  

Anyway, all is resolved and that's how far I go for my customer service.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Happy Herpin</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
See...I think what you did is fair.  If this had been a cheap snake, I wouldn't care, but the difference in value between male and female Ball Pythons is enormous.

Just to make sure...You do realize that I never mentioned (or intended to) Sam's name?  I wouldn't ever do that to someone over something so questionable.

The significant difference here is that the person Tim had related the incident with had not, or at least Tim didn't mention, SOLD the animal involved.

Beyond which, Tim's customer service is beyond exceptional... I am frequently amazed when people relate their interactions with him, he goes far beyond what is normal or even what is reasonable. It works for him of course, because he retains customers and gets loads of repeat buisness.

When you turn around and SELL an animal, you then assume ALL responsibility for the condition and representation of that animal.

When you purchase an animal you also obligate yourself to any and all conditions the seller sets forth unless you discuss and mitigate them before any money or animals change hands. Forty eight hours is forty eight hours. Period.

Had a problem occured after say... seventy two hours when still in your position, you might have found more sympathy or at least a more accomidating seller...

But Three months later when you don't even have the animals anymore on someone else's word on a condition that's easy enough to verify regardless of the ease of making mistakes...

I know this wasn't started as a bad guy/ good guy post, but I certainly know which of the involved individuals I'd trust with money or animals... Policies and agreements are put in place before a sale for a reason and nobody want's to deal with buyers who end up doing nothing but whine and complain months afterwards when they find themselves in a tough spot with their own buyer who, I can only assume, you've been putting off while you blame the problem on someone else.

Taking responsibility for your descisions is one of the cornerstones of this industry. Being honest and understanding in your dealings and abiding by any agreements made by the letter, not demanding or expecting anything outside of that (requesting is perhaps okay but don't go into it expecting anything outside of what was agreed upon) is important.

The only possible exception that comes easily to mind would be misrepresentation of gentics, a condition that isn't easily verifiable upon the acquisition of the animal.

</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>It is just a given when purchasing young animals that you may or may not get what you thought.  </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

So let me get this straight. The buyer is new to the herp business. Ball pythons are difficult to sex. He buys a supposed hetero for albino baby female and pays $800 and a couple of months later he discovers it's a $250 male. The answer of the seller is "tough luck you should have sexed the animal"? Something doesn't seem right.

Best regards,

Daniel

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So let me get this straight. The buyer is new to the herp business. Ball pythons are difficult to sex. He buys a supposed hetero for albino baby female and pays $800 and a couple of months later he discovers it's a $250 male. The answer of the seller is "tough luck you should have sexed the animal"? Something doesn't seem right.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

You got it!

This type of misrepresentation is basic, and no different than the genetics. If you’re in the business of selling snakes, you need to be able to stand by what you sell. Again I’m not equating this to health or other fluid and evolving issues; this is a basic-clear misrepresentation due to seller error.

So if you sell a het for albino ball and later discover that it doesn’t prove out, maybe you grabbed one from another clutch by mistake, it’s not your problem? Please….

I just spent several thousand dollars for 3 retics, I can assure you that I expect 2 things: the genetics to be true and the genders to be accurate, the amount of time that passes has no bearing on those 2 facts….

I’d also venture a guess to say that if money wasn’t a problem for the seller, as it seems to be, this wouldn’t be an issue….

I would definitely have to agree with the last couple of posters.  Customer service in this business is EVERYTHING!.  My personal policy is a 7 day no questions asked refund for any reason if the customer is unhappy.  After that, it is at my discretion.  However, I have replaced animals for this very reason, as well as others, up to a year later when I honestly thought I had made a mistake.

A gentleman approached me in Daytona last month with two female Grayband yearlings that I had sold to him last year as a pair.  I remembered the transaction and immediately offered to replace the animal with a 2002 hatchling male at a substantial discount and offered to buy the mis-sexed animal back from him at the full purchase price.  He was amazed at this and immediately took advantage of the offer.  The customer left feeling he had been treated royally and I will get more good will, not to mention good word of mouth, out of that $60 than I could have gotten from a half dozen banners on the internet.  

To the gentleman who stated that all buyers should double check the sex on an animal within the initial warranty period, that is fine if you are selling to an experienced collector/breeder.  What if the purchaser is a novice?  Should he be forced to seek out an expert or pay for a vet office visit to have a hundred dollar animal sexed?  No, he shouldn't.  When a breeder sells an animal, he is representing himself as knowledgable and somewhat expert in this field.  The customer is trusting and depending on this.  If he is not willing to stand behind his mistakes, he will find himself losing customers.  Word of mouth and referrals are the best advertising any of us have available.  Both are invaluable and should never be risked over a single transaction.  

I believe the statement was also made that the animal was probably not 100% guaranteed to be a female.  I have worked with Balls somewhat in the past and, while they are tricky to sex as juvies, they are not that tricky.  I personally would never by an animal from anyone who wasn't sure enough of his abilities to guarantee that what I was receiving was what it had been represented to be.  

The only point that I somewhat will concede is that when the animal was re-sold, the same standards outlined above should have been observed.  The original buyer is now guilty of the same accidental infraction that he inquired about in his initial post.  

My personal solution would have been to credit the original buyer for at least a substantial portion of the difference in value on the animal.  I would, however, require the animal to be sexed by someone qualified to do so before the credit was given.  

Just my opinion

John Schmitt

Suncoast Herpetological

What I don't understand is Anthony posts his side of the story, but then when Sam does Anthony bascially tells him stay out of it or I'll post what happened a couple weeks ago, making us think Sam did something horrible.
    I commend Sam for telling us what happened, Anthony that was wrong on so many levels.  Also, for not leaving Anthony hanging when he didn't get the money orders, I know how it is to be left hanging when someone said they will buy something, then all of a sudden their e-mail address disappear and their phone rings to no end.
   Anthony you have two posts on here with problems, is that supposed to tell us something about you?  
   We can't teach Anthony anything about "customer service since he isn't a business.
   Anthony, I thought you were only a hobbyist?  Why all the business problems?

It's obvious that Sam made a mistake sexing the animal and he openly admits that there is a possibility that he may have mis sexed the animal, Anthony does't make any kind of claim, for almost three months, after he has already sold the animal to someone else.  No Anthony is getting high and mighty about the whole situation.  Here is the way I see it.  First of all Sam stated that there was a 48 hour return policy for any reason in which time Anthony didn't feel the need to check the sex as he had a good healthy animal.  Anthony you really don't have a leg to stand on because of the fact that the 48 hour return policy has expired, but here is the rub ....  Maybe if you were nicer to Sam at his discretion he may have done something for you, but after the way you have treated him on here if I was your dealer I would not be so inclined, and this is all subjective because someone else has the snake now anyway so your really not looking for a return or anything else other than to bust Sam's chops on a public forum ... right ?  Maybe I am misunderstanding something here and that is entirely possible but if I am, then I apologize for what I have said here but if I am right on this then I think you owe Sam an apology, because what he did is not a crime !!  It is a simple mistake that we all may have made at least once and I include myself here, but in my opinion you handled this all wrong and this thread didn't need to be started in the first place.  Again if I misunderstood something here and I am interpreting this wrong then I apologize but is that the case here or what ?

Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles