Where am I going wrong with this site?

As of this moment, there are 23,426 registered members on this site. However, on any given day, NEVER has there been more then 1,300 members visiting.

I don't understand those numbers. What has prompted so many people to register here, yet something keeps the far greater majority of them from becoming active daily participants. What is chasing people away? Is there an obvious solution to this problem that I am overlooking because of some sort of tunnel vision?

Right off the bat I can see that there seem to be a handful of people who take it upon themselves to be rather antagonistic towards other members at every opportunity. I have personally seen newbies post and then get jumped on right away by some of the people I am referring to. I am a big fan of freedom in all forms, but have I allowed this to go too far, and some people believe they have an open invitation to do as they please here, to the detriment of this site in general? In other words, have some members just gotten too big for their britches?

I've tried warning points as well as fines and suspensions, but they don't seem to be making much of an impression on some people. What if the major attraction of this site is just for such a reason for many people being here? Is "bad" participation better then no participation? Is the entertainment factor the major draw for them instead of any quality in the information presented?

This does bother me. I've been in mostly a hands-off mode lately as my busy season took up most of my time, but have been reading some of what is going on. And to be honest, I don't like what I see. Too many people have shown me with their contributions that they want this site to survive, so I feel I have no other choice but to figure out what the "trash" is around here that is stinking up the joint and toss it out the door.

So what is needed for me to do in order to clean house? If anyone engages in any personal pissing duels or feuds in this thread or ANY thread within this particular forum, I will be pleased to escort you out of the door. So please bear that in mind. That doesn't mean you can't name names, but be extremely cautious in how you do so.

Consistency. Spell it out and stick to it.

A few of answers in my opinion.

1) the numbers show that a lot of the members come on here only to check on perspective buys and stuff and nothing more, so they only visit rarely.
2) Some peple come on on a occasional basis to view the classifieds but dont do any posting
3) A lot of people come on here just to keep an eye on the BOI and nothing more, i have watched the people coming and going on the BOI for hours on end and am amazed at how many members only visit there and no where else. I see a lot of the "major" players come check the BOI and jump right back off as if they are just checking to make sure theres nothing about them there.
4) The are a lot of "ACTIVE" memebers that can be seen by thier posting numbers who are regulars to the discussion forums and play a vital role in keeping people coming back and wanting to talk about thier reptiles.
5) There are a very few that come here to post reptiles for sale and thats it, why they dont use any other forums is a mystery to me.
6) then you have a group that are here just to prove thier dominance of the site and like to push people around and gang up on people when you disagree with them
7) finally you have the people that come for the sole purpose of causing trouble and seeking attention (TROLLS) and serve no real purpose here.

Solutions.

1) Get rid of the known trolls
2) make "HELL" a subscribe only option for members and have a extra 10.00 fee to use it for now on.
3) Start a new "seller/buyer/involved persons rule on the BOI, Only people that have dealings or knowledge of the person/people/company being discussed allowed to post and keep out all the personal opinions, smart remarks, predjudice comments and stupidity in general. This will help elevate the BOI to a much more respectable level. A lot of people wont post even an inquiry on the boi because they are afraid what can happen.
4) make sure all the discussion forums have moderators in them not just the leo forum, this gives people the feeling of a presence of authority and they are less likely to cause trouble and such.
5) Put up a "auction" forum so members can auction off items to the highest bidders, which gives some people a chance to get a great deal and others a chance to unload that stuff they dont want anymore. People love the chance of getting a great deal and will come on often to make sure they dont miss out on anything.
6) Stop the known rip off artists from posting calssifieds here and making money off of and scamming the members.

As always this is just my opinion. Everyone has one!!!






P.S. I like the Idea of this new forum!!!

Like it or not, the main activity here is focused around the BOI. Other than the Leo forum, few have any great following. And few are all that unique. So that's where you need to look. There are probably various reasons for that, but I think the major one is competition. There are small forums for enthusiasts for everything.

Of those up to 1300 hits, how many of those people visit the BOI? I would guess that AT LEAST half do. If that's the case, how many visits would you expect? What's your market?

As for "newbies" I see them welcomed here more often than not, unless they are responding to archived old classifieds (guilty) which should be locked already.

As for the latest "problem child", maybe you missed all of that but he has managed to piss off most everyone that he has come in contact with. Allowing him to stay on the site offering a reward for negative rep points was a very poor moderating decision. Especially after he had just been suspended for trolling. Before that he had made disparaging remarks about "fags and lesbians" equating them with pedophiles. He has twice promised to leave this site permanently only to return and continue to make nonsensical posts. It's not just the "Gang of Four" who are totally irritated by him and his posts, it is a lot of the "rank and file". Removing disruptive people like that would go a long way toward making this site more hospitable. When Robert Dunleavy came back it didn't take long.

Look, people are going to have disagreements, be sarcastic, occasionally get angry, ec. But eventually such disagreements end, like the one in the Leo forum this past spring. It took a few suspensions and a few bruised egos, but it ended. You want the current situation to end you have a choice. You can suspend one person (again -- and again if necessary) or you can suspend a bunch of people -- like Dave, Dennis Hultman, Wes, Chuck, Nicholas, Chris, Matt Haines, myself, and others along with him. I think though that the results will be the same.

Back to the question at hand, that 23,000+ number is a bit artifical. I am a member of several forums on which I have made fewer than five posts, some zero. How many new registrants actually ever post? How many never return? Why don't they return? They don't see value. But they have to register even to check it out. You cannot even view the BOI without registering. So Joe Reptile Hobbyist wants to buy an animal or two from Mike Reptile Breeder. Mike tells Joe to come here and check him out. He does. He has to register so he does. Joe reads the thread(s) and makes the deal, maybe never to need to come back, or maybe he does again in six months or a year for the same reason. I think that may be your "typical" registrant. A few stay, most don't. That's probably typical of many sites.

WebSlave said:

As of this moment, there are 23,426 registered members on this site. However, on any given day, NEVER has there been more then 1,300 members visiting.

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I personally think this is a terrific site.

The first thing that came to mind when I read the above figures was to do a statistical study. You are saying roughly 5% of registered people visit daily. Is it the same 5%? In addition, when you talk to others that own sites, what is THEIR active level? If EVERYONE has an activity rate of %5, you are doing fine, although promotion and retention of active posters is a good move as it widens the community of people wh get to enjoy the site.

While I too value freedom, I feel that reasonable limits are appropriate and welcome. There are those who troll the site and I feel that they can cause damage and disharmony to the point that some members simply give up posting and visiting.

I would like to see more members stop by the Lonely Hearts Forum and The Welcome Club.
I think there may be some who are shy about posting, I don't know if that is simply innate shyness or whether it is somehow related to the disharmony I spoke of, above.

In any case, I will try to encourage the comfort level of those forums so that people can come and share a little of their lives with the Fauna Community. I know I have found some people here who are outstanding: warm and funny and bright, and I would not have gotten to know them well without taking the time to post and write.

I would like to see some FAQs and beginner hints stickied at the forums, so that those who are new get both information and a sense that their beginner's needs will be met.

We have some of the most experienced reptile people in the world visit this site, people with immense knowledge and wonderful reputations, after the beginner gets started they will get excellent info on the forums, but sometimes they need that basic info in order to make them comfortable enough to get going in a conversation.

I very much appreciate this site, and I think that if we work together, reduce the squabbling and fighting, and increase the comfort level for beginners, we can improve an already good community.

Jim O and Lucille those are two of the best posts i have ever seen on here. Well thought out and came from the heart. You have all my respect and admiration for your continued support and appreiciation of this site and wanting to better it. People like you two are the reason people like me keep coming back time and again!!

WebSlave said:

As of this moment, there are 23,426 registered members on this site. However, on any given day, NEVER has there been more then 1,300 members visiting.

I don't understand those numbers. What has prompted so many people to register here, yet something keeps the far greater majority of them from becoming active daily participants. What is chasing people away? Is there an obvious solution to this problem that I am overlooking because of some sort of tunnel vision?

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I noticed the other day that you can't read the BOI without registering. I didn't know that before, but that's probably because I wasn't paying any attention to it. I think the BOI attracts a lot of people to come here and I've seen it mentioned on a number of other sites. That may be the cause of a high number of registered members, and these people may not really have a daily interest in a predominantly reptile forum such as this.
When I first came upon Fauna, before I registered, I noticed what seemed to be a lot of cliques and groups of people who all knew each other previously and had something in common. I am simply not the type of person who jumps into such a community until I feel welcomed. (I'm sort of antisocial that way). Maybe there are others. Basically, I think a lot of people register out of curiosity, and may not return frequently because of levels of, and changes in interest.

WebSlave said:

Right off the bat I can see that there seem to be a handful of people who take it upon themselves to be rather antagonistic towards other members at every opportunity. I have personally seen newbies post and then get jumped on right away by some of the people I am referring to. I am a big fan of freedom in all forms, but have I allowed this to go too far, and some people believe they have an open invitation to do as they please here, to the detriment of this site in general? In other words, have some members just gotten too big for their britches?

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I've made a similar observation, and I'm afraid I'm not immune from having been somewhat "un-welcoming" at times. I've thought about that more lately, and am trying to change. I do hope that I haven't said anything to contribute to people not wanting to come back.

I also think the reputation point system, although helpful and admirable in some ways, may be doing more harm than good. Just look at how much bull---- has been argued about lately over the rep. system. Maybe the site would be better off without it. Maybe it is inflating egos and encouraging some people to feel a greater liberty to throw their weight around. Personally, I think the red vs. green thing is really irritating and I don't like the division it creates. This might relate back to the new-comers who get jumped on right away, go into the red, and then think "what's the ------- point?"

The trader ratings and GGC and BOI reports should offer sufficient "reputation" data on other members.

I don't think this site should be about egos, it should be about animal care, experience, husbandry, breeding, and advice. I think the consumer reports forum should be getting a LOT more attention than the HELL forum. Why it's not, may very well be a side-effect of the underlying conflicts.

WebSlave said:

I've tried warning points as well as fines and suspensions, but they don't seem to be making much of an impression on some people. What if the major attraction of this site is just for such a reason for many people being here? Is "bad" participation better then no participation? Is the entertainment factor the major draw for them instead of any quality in the information presented?

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Playground. Kinda reminds me of which table you sat at in high school... but I don't think that metaphorical table should be why you were there in the first place.

WebSlave said:

This does bother me. I've been in mostly a hands-off mode lately as my busy season took up most of my time, but have been reading some of what is going on. And to be honest, I don't like what I see. Too many people have shown me with their contributions that they want this site to survive, so I feel I have no other choice but to figure out what the "trash" is around here that is stinking up the joint and toss it out the door.

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I have to admit that within the past week or so I've thought about calling it quits here just because it's turned into so much drama, bickering and bull----. It's a tough decision because I would greatly miss the advice and sharing that goes on, but I would NOT miss the power plays and petty tantrums. Unfortunately, it's been an all-inclusive package.

I seem to have irritated a lot of people by trying to help mediate tension and conflict between certain members. Dare I mention the Truce? thread?? I can't help it though. I grew up in a rather hostile and mind----ing household where I was forced into the role of trying to throw water on the fire just to keep people from killing each other. Sometimes I'd get so fed up when it breached my tolerance level and I would just give up, and sometimes make the problem worse. I know it's happened a few times here, and I apologize.

WebSlave said:

So what is needed for me to do in order to clean house?

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I don't really know right now. I'll think about it though.

Just my perspective, for what it's worth.

(stepping off soap box...)

nicolai said:

Solutions.

1) Get rid of the known trolls
2) make "HELL" a subscribe only option for members and have a extra 10.00 fee to use it for now on.
3) Start a new "seller/buyer/involved persons rule on the BOI, Only people that have dealings or knowledge of the person/people/company being discussed allowed to post and keep out all the personal opinions, smart remarks, predjudice comments and stupidity in general. This will help elevate the BOI to a much more respectable level. A lot of people wont post even an inquiry on the boi because they are afraid what can happen.
4) make sure all the discussion forums have moderators in them not just the leo forum, this gives people the feeling of a presence of authority and they are less likely to cause trouble and such.
5) Put up a "auction" forum so members can auction off items to the highest bidders, which gives some people a chance to get a great deal and others a chance to unload that stuff they dont want anymore. People love the chance of getting a great deal and will come on often to make sure they dont miss out on anything.
6) Stop the known rip off artists from posting calssifieds here and making money off of and scamming the members.

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Nicolas makes some great suggestions here. I would like to add my 2 cents also.
1. Time monitor registered users If they don't come back in lets say 60 to 90 days..good bye. Remove their registration info. They are just taking up memory and space.
2. No Posting in Classified unless you are a paid member. I must say I am VERY convinced on this one. People are coming to this site to SELL and are not willing to pay $10 to be a member of the site, but are trying to make money and God only know how much of a profit!! You place an ad in the paper, you get charged. I do not know of many places you can place and ad for free. If you wanted to charge non members a "listing fee" that would work also.
3. GET RID OF THE TROLLS ONCE AND FOR ALL. I am sure we could provide you with several names if needed...(however I doubt you would need us to) who cares that they paid for a membership..is their money worth the headache?
I also agree with what Nicolas said about Hell and having an auction set up..
But about some of the butt heads on here, well, there is nothing you can really do about that..kick them off and a new one will appear. Just send them all to Hell to entertain themselves.

The value of this site for me is the collective knowledge which I can access via the search feature. I also value being able to ask questions and receive credible answers and advice from the expert membership. I am so isolated in the hobby because of where I live. As consequence, sites like this are my main opportunity to participate in a like-minded community.

The concept and utility of the BOI is brilliant.

Both of the above are well established and attractive aspects of Fauna.

I have checked out other sites. I do check out other sites. There are different reasons why I either don't return or don't post on them.

One reason is that some sites seem to be nothing more than meeting places for children. I am not interested in reading childish posts. I am a well educated, middle aged adult that takes my interest in reptiles very seriously. I am also not interested in dialog made by the excessively emotionally invested and the anthropomorphic.

Another reason I avoid a certain other site is because of the arrogant sanctimony that is heaped on those with differing world views. The perverse joy certain "moderators" and "experts" take in their delusional pseudo-superiority is palpable in the responses they give. So, there may be large numbers of people registering for such a site. But, I really doubt that many stay. I personally, have not experienced anything close to that on this site.

There is also a "Catch 22" factor. If no new posts are being made, if no new threads are being initiated, there is no reason to check in at a site. If there is nothing new to read I head off in other directions. This is where I think lucille's idea of placing FAQ and basic reference threads in each category would provide excellent incentive to new members.

Polls and anything controversial or topical increases participation.

I may not have been able to offer much by way of solution. Still, I hope I have provided something useful by sharing my perspective.

Yes, I'll have to agree with nicks "list"

Especially the part about the trolls. You'll notice that these "trolls" have been making recent last ditch efforts to actually contribute something to justify the garbage they regularly spew in other parts of this place. I thought it was an amusing last ditch effort to avoid being removed. Will it work? Who knows...

I'd certainly love to see them gone. Considering this is in fact a paid site now I do believe that a bit more work should be put into keeping troublesome individuals like this from accessing the site and making those who pay to access it regret their purchase.

The boi is a very valuable tool, and so are the other information parts of this site.... It's sad thought that so many have to seriously consider leaving this site because of these select few people. Warnings, suspensions, its all fine and dandy. But those who are obviously here to cause trouble and make no intention to contribute whatsoever should be removed, simple as that. As stated previously you'll ironicly find these very same people making such attempts to "contribute" only recently..... trying to avoid the inevitable hand of justice lol

I believe the consistency issue is a good start. Black and white, no gray. When the likes of bud mierkey jumps over 3000 positive points in under two days and it isn't stopped and the person(s) involved warned, fined or suspended it is not only a farce but unfair to any who have received warnings, fines or suspensions for similar actions. Now the likes of dennis1 is making the same positive point movement.

The trolling is another big issue, especially as of late. Not just by the ones doing it outright but the ones doing it through others behind the scenes. Instigating controversy is still participating in it and should be dealt with in the same way.

As for the numbers of registered compared to the number of participating members, the suggestion of an expiration time limit sounds good if it is feasible.

View from the Other side of the COIN

I think this is one of the better site ones in the hobby
But certain aspects of it are going to be abused
One instance is the reputation system which seems to be set up to discourage abuse but some find a way around it
When its only a few giving Bad Reputation over and over again because of a grudge...I would call that Abuse

When i first came to fauna what attracted me was the Free Classifieds which i think is good business
Only after that did i find out about the BOI which is a very good tool
But like many other tools needs cleaning once in awhile or they become rusty and dull!
What i mean by this is by letting some attack people's livelyhood just because of something they say Should not be permitted(I am talking about the BOI)and should be deletedor at least given the choice and ALL offenders Should be Fined without hesitation
The BOI should be Kept to a business like Standard

Now as far as the other forums on this site it is my Opinion that they are pretty useful as a whole as i have learned alot just by Reading them...If i have a question about something 99.9% of the time the answer is already there and that may be the reason that there may not be as many hits well that and the reason i will explain below

Since i have been here i have seen and continue to see some Harassment of newcomers!...and i am not talking about me...lol
Those posts should be handled harshly because it costs this site MONEY
Without new members this site would become Stagnate

Also there is the intimidation factor when i first came to this site i saw alot of posts that seemed to ridicule and bait some for things that seemed not to warrant it
And that is the reason i took so long to post the first time and i am ALMOST POSITIVE there are newcomers with the same concerns
Therin lies the biggest threat to this site

I hope that have articulated my thoughts well enough to write what i am meaning to say
So if theres something in this post that seems offending it is not my intent

I don't think you are doing anything "wrong", per se. How can you be doing anything "wrong" when you have one of the highest traffic reptile sites on the net? Is there room for improvement? Well, there is always room for improvement no matter how well anything is doing. Perfection is impossible, but striving for perfection should always be the goal.

If you are looking for a big glaring problem I really do not think you are going to find one. And no matter what you do you are always going to need a few minor tweaks. It is a life destined to perpetual minor tweaking. By merely focusing on a problem, you may well overlook its solution.

nicolai said:

Start a new "seller/buyer/involved persons rule on the BOI, Only people that have dealings or knowledge of the person/people/company being discussed allowed to post

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Nick,

I agree with most of what you have written with the exception of the above. One problem with this idea is that many times the originator of the thread posts only partial information and questions need to be asked in order to really understand the details of a transaction.

On another note, the Bill Leverton thread is a perfect example of what is good and not good about the BOI. If James Wilson and Ben Siegel had not chimed in, along with others, who would have been believed? Eventually Bill was exposed but it took outside pressure. Subsequently a few people piled on and the thread got utterly ridiculous. But if not for opinions from outside the transaction itself Bill might have gotten away with stealing the snake.

Also, when multiple people chime in it can apply pressure on the scammer/bad guy and can actually result in an actual resolution. I have seen it happen. We all have. Peer pressure can be potent.

Without the input of uninvolved parties who have no financial or personal interest in a transaction the BOI becomes a "Better Business Bureau" at best and a place for a lot of "he said/she said" threads" at worst. It only works when impartial parties offer opinions, at least in my opinion.

Also, what happens when someone makes a ridiculous complaint on a bad guy thread? Like the one about the $2 worth of week old waxworms in which the poster found maggots after leaving them out all day? Shouldn't people be allowed to say "hey, that's a silly complaint!"?

Jim O said:

Also, what happens when someone makes a ridiculous complaint on a bad guy thread? Like the one about the $2 worth of week old waxworms in which the poster found maggots after leaving them out all day? Shouldn't people be allowed to say "hey, that's a silly complaint!"?

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Yes people should say it's a silly complaint and that thread was going along nicely until someone piped up with this little ditty: And we know how to read the signs of a fruit cake hobbyist with nothing but time on their hands to start a lame ass thread like this.There are nicer ways to get the point across as some had already done.

DAND said:

When the likes of bud mierkey jumps over 3000 positive points in under two days and it isn't stopped and the person(s) involved warned, fined or suspended it is not only a farce but unfair to any who have received warnings, fines or suspensions for similar actions.

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On the flipside here and just to play devil's advocate That can go both ways. I have seen people with + rep. points drop to - overnight and it's the same person(s) doing it.

Karen Hulvey said:

Yes people should say it's a silly complaint and that thread was going along nicely until someone piped up with this little ditty: And we know how to read the signs of a fruit cake hobbyist with nothing but time on their hands to start a lame ass thread like this.There are nicer ways to get the point across as some had already done.

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Phew...glad it was not I who made that comment. I agree with you. That type of sarcasm, while comical at times, rarely does much good. However, many of the comments in that thread were fair. The point I was making was that if people who are not involved in a transaction are not allowed to post at all, then that accusation would have been allowed to stand unchallenged.

I would say you're doing nothing wrong with the site. It gets a ton of traffic. If you're trying to reconcile the registration numbers with the daily traffic numbers, well, you shouldn't. A site thats been around as long as this one is bound to pile up registrations from people who come, look, and leave, in way higher numbers than the ones who come to stay (for years). It's probably very typical. I can't begin to remember all the forums I've registered for, read for a couple of days and then never returned. But its like in the hundreds, compared to the 4 or 5 that I've stuck with.

what about you Rich. Can you give us a " State Of The Union" address so to say. Let us all know what is going on with you and the site, what your immediate plans and concerns are, What expectations and plans you have for the site in the future.
I think we would all like to take a peak into the goings on behind the scenes of fauna and have a sense of what the true issues and problems are.
1) How is the site financially
2) How is the site advertising going
3) Are there any looming programming issues
4) Are there any immediate legal concerns
5) Is there anything the members can do to help
6) How is RICH doing????

There are a lot of hardcore diehard longtime supportive members here that continuously offer thier help to you for the survival of this site. Why not find out if we can all truly pull together and help out. Give us the chance. Whats the worst that can happen??

I would say you're doing nothing wrong with the site. It gets a ton of traffic. If you're trying to reconcile the registration numbers with the daily traffic numbers, well, you shouldn't. A site thats been around as long as this one is bound to pile up registrations from people who come, look, and leave, in way higher numbers than the ones who come to stay (for years).

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I agree. If your concern is simply the number of actives vs. the number of registered users, don't sweat it.

If your concern is getting more paid memberships, then that's another topic... it comes down to marketing. If you're interested in those suggestions, I have some.

The site itself is a good one in my mind, even with all its flaws. No matter what direction you take, there will be negatives. I know you get tired of the flack, and the crap that sometimes appears, but it's part of the deal.

I disagree with charging for classifieds, as I think it will kill the classifieds section. If you think people are coming to the site just for classifieds, then put a sticky at the top of the forum "Cruise Fauna" or something, that takes them to the Top 10 topics or something.

I disagree with changing the structure of the BOI. I think the BOI has proven itself the biggest strength of the site, and is therefore the last thing you want to muck around with.

I do think the obvious trolls should be dealt with more harshly. I'm not speaking about the controversial personalities that still make valid points (Wes, Neil, etc.), but the troublemakers. Call it done and kick their butt out.

And that's all for now.