Ocean Oddessy in Saginaw Michigan

When I first went to this store they seemed like an excellent place to get a reptile from, they kept all Leopard geckos seperate with hides, reptile carpet, it looked great!

At the beginning of this month I purchased an albino from them, looked a bit thin, but not like it was sick, there were 2 others from the same breeder in that tank, they were all running around. However it seems that apperances are decieving. My albino slowly faded away until she finally died on saturday, the day after I took her to the vet who did a fecal and found nothing. I went there today to explain the situation and looked for the other 2 albinos, they were now sharing a tank with a perfectly healthy juvenille leo. I asked them why they would put such obviously sick animals with a healthy one. He asked me "well what would you like me to do about it?" and walked away. I then proceded to explain to him my situation that they had sold me a sick animal. Now I can understand that they have a policy that they don't give a guarantee once it leaves the store, but when the animal was sick and the other 2 that were with it were both showing the exact same symptoms. He refused to even talk to me about it and proceeded to talk to another customer. In my opinion, BAD SALESMAN, and I think that he was the owner.

Now I know that I'm going to get the usual responses about going to a pet store, and I'm not saying that they don't have any good animals, because I have 2 others that I bought before that one, and they're doing superb. I outright told that guy that he had lost a customer for good. I'm just trying to make sure that people in my area know that they don't practice the best policies

Tonya Cunningham

When I was running the reptile dept. locally, I had the same thing happen to me. It was the albinos that wasted away first. They were sick when I got them. I quit carrying leos all together for 3 months and disinfected all the equipment (including lighting fixtures!) that were used on any of them. Subsequent shipments from different breeders were fine after that.

Wish I could help yours. My vet didn't know what it was. We thought crypto, but the tests were inconclusive. By the time they get thin enough to notice, it seems no matter what you do they just fade away. Broke my heart.

I'm thinking the guy you got yours from got them in sick to begin with. His attitude toward you wasn't very nice, but you can always go somewhere else...like here-LOL!

If you find out what this is let us know. Perhaps we can save someone else's little ones.

Just to clarify, I meant "here" meaning Fauna! There are bunches of great breeders here.

Cryptosporidia is the likely cause. Large scale breeders have changed over to exclusively feeding meal worms/super worms/wax worms because of crypto being transmitted through the crickets via the buildup of bacteria on the dead crickets. It is a very frequent occurence for middle men and dealers to sell animals that carry crypto and they don't realize it as the animals will not exhibit symptoms until their immune system is down from stress. So they sell animals that look fine and the stress of being taken to the pet shop or house/cared for poorly triggers the infection enough for it to overtake the immune system of the animal and it watses away quickly.

Be sure when dealing with animals with these symptoms to sanitize with virosan or another agent of that type as bleach does not kill off crypto.

On a side note, I went to school in Saginaw for a couple years and back then I used to supply that store with animals. I don't know how much things have changed since then but it was always a fish store that just dabbled in herps not specialized in them.

no they don't specialize in them, but they did tell me that they usually get their geckos from an ex employee who breeds them, which is the only reason I have bought from them at all.

ok from what I've read about crypto, there is no cure...is this true? And some have told me it's contagious to humans true or not?

oopsss forgot to add my name

Tonya Cunningham

Cryptosporidium...

is very hard to eradicate. If not specifically looked for it will not be diagnosed. In small animals like leopard geckos the immune system has been compromised to the point of no return, most likely, before diagnosis, which is why most people opt for euthanasia over treatment since the animal is so far gone at that point.

The jury is still out on the cross-species contamination from reptile to human, some say it can happen most say it can't (with crypto) but I prefer to err on the side of caution and be meticulous in sanitation if there is any suspected "cootie" among the animals I come in contact with.

I, personally, would refrain from getting anything to put into the enclosure you used for the sick Leo for at least three months. If I remember correctly that is the amount of time the cyst can survive outside a host. It seemed to work for me. I also used Virosan to disinfect everything- full strength- and then let everything sit. Washed and disinfected it again before use, paying special attention to cracks and crevices.

Hope this helps and if anyone (Evan! ) knows more about this than I (it's not something I have read up much on since that one bout with it) will feel free to chime in and fill any glaring holes in my posting.

ok, it seems that with this geckos she's just not in an eating mood, she ate a pinkie today...she just wanted to be spoiled, I'm hoping it stays that way. However she is one of the 3 that were bought from the shop in question. The other is a month old at most and eats normally. I just think that they handled the situation with selling me a sick animal very poorly.

Tonya Cunningham

Maggie, you did great. I forgot to mention that Nolvasan works well too. Really any of the chlorhexidine based cleaners. I am not sure if crypto would be transmutable to humans or not but I guess if you have anyone who is sick, elderly or very young, it would be best to avoid contact with anything that could cause them to get ill. Better safe than sorry every time. This thread also reinforces the need for quarentine away from your established collection.

Cryptosporidia is a parasitic protozoan. It normally effects sheep, cattle, birds, rodents, reptiles, shellfish, and humans. Transmittance is through fecal to oral contact usually through dirty water. Crypto inside the body is thin walled to allow adsorbtion of nutrients. Once crypto is shed and leaves the body it forms a hard shell or encysts to prevent dehydration. Crypto egg cysts can live dormant in fecal piles, contaminated soil for years.

Even harsh cleaners like nolvasan, roccal-d, and bleach may not kill all shed eggs, as the cyst wall is very mpermeable . There are no known to myself chemical cold sterilants that will readily destroy the cysts. One company that produces a chlorine dioxide product called MB-10 is claiming there product will destroy the cysts and other parasite egg shells if given a 20 minute contact time. Howeve MB-10 produces an irritant vapor, and is very destructive to plastics and metals so it is not a user friendly chemical cleaner. Usually the only one to use it are laboratories, and commercial research facilities.

Crypto is difficult to get rid of but some veterinarians have found that extremely high doses of metrodiazonal have been effective. Many large scale breeders have had to deal with it. In large scale breeding operations profit is the bottom line so they just breed around crypto and except that a certian amount of loss is cheaper than treatment.

With changes in husbandry, food sources, and a trend towards indoor, cement floor breeding buildings I am seeing less animals that show the classical crypo signs, but I have been out of the business of reselling leo's for a few years.

The M.O. for crypto is to bury into the intestinal wall. This causes irritation that the body tries to rid by leaking fluid and water. This is why you see runny stool as the first sign. The animal's gut wall will thicken (hyperplasia) to compensate. However a thicker gut wall is less able to absorb nutrients, and water(which is what the colon has evolved to do). If the animal is in constant contamination this cyle will happen and in extreme cases the gut wall will become so thick that nothing can pass by becuase it has lost its elasticity.

If the animal dies quickly it is due to dehydration and ionic imbalance, if the animal lives long enough it will starve to death.

In my opinion animals with crypto if treated early have a chance, however any large infestations usually have the same outcome and the animals should be put down to prevent a long slow death.

Hope this helps.
ben cole

Ben, I was under the impression that the cysts that infect human and reptile were slightly different, therefore there was less risk of each species becoming infected by the other. Do you know if that is correct? I cannot seem to find anything that says conclusively that this is or isn't so. (I really need to root around in my basement for my school books most likely!)

Thanks for the comprehensive post!

I believe there are a couple of species specific crypto subspecies, also I believe there are a few species that are not problematic also. But I would also have to dig out some of my college books.

thanks
ben

Ben, most large scale breeders have effectively eliminated the problems they have had with crypto by eliminating crickets. For whatever the scientific basis or reason for it, crypto is very present in crickets. I assume then it is similar to the parasite problems in feeder fish. The switch to worm species has culled the problem out of many facilities and collections. I know some people have had success using oral doses of albon on infected animals although I do not know why it works or how often.

reply to evansnakes

Albon is the brand/generic name for metrodiazonal.


Thanks
ben

But flagyl, is just that, while albon coming in a liquid form, (which we can't legally get in this country in flagyl), is not the same. I would have to read the bottle to recall what the difference(s) is. But as liquid flagyl is dispensed in Mexico and other countries for whatever reason it is prohibited in the USA so by that, Albon could not be what you have said it to be. I am not trying to be argumentative just telling you something that I am not sure if you are aware of not.

Yeah, you are right, I checked my fridge, Albon is sulfadimethoxine. Albon does work for protozoans also. I used it a lot in dogs years ago when I started off in the pet trade and slightly when I was in the dairy industry.

Wouldn't be the first (probably not the last unfortunately) time I stuck my foot in my mouth!!


I would also agree with you when you stated that the number of large scalers have switched food sources which have in turn lowered the number of cases of crypto.


However, it is still a real and consistent problem in this industry becuase of a number of trends in this industry. Look at the number of hands some herp go through before they become someone's pet, look at the lack of pathogen control at the show level, and jobber level.


thanks
ben

where is this crypto curing med available??? I want to make sure that I have it in case I ever get another unidentifiable disease...besides the vet prolly charges an arm and a leg for it

I totally aggree Ben. I have been a show promoter and a vendor at hundreds of shows all over the country as well as dealing with many many pet stores over the years and it is really shocking how many people just do not even understand that they should wash their hands more often or not go from cage to cage watering everything at the same time. I think the main problem is the same with any business. You get people that are just out for a buck and all other concerns like the animals health or the customers satisfaction come in much farther down the list of priorities.

Tonya, to my knowledge there is no cure. Even treatments do not work in many cases.