Eastern Indigo Hatchlings

I have 2006 season Eastern Indigo hatchlings available now. Most are the red-throat form as all of my parents are red-throats. There are very few breeders with Easterns this year, particularly the red-throat form. For the last two years, I have been the top producing breeder in the world, with the largest breeding colony of Eastern Indigos anywhere.

When an Eastern Indigo has a red throat and face, the irises of the eyes are also red colored and this allows the handler to see the animal's eyes and in particular, where the animal is looking. Usually this is at the handler, as Easterns are extremely curious and personable, and make nearly continuous eye contact with whoever is in the room or handling them. All-black Easterns, although equally personable, have all-black eyes which are harder to distinguish from the body scales making it difficult to perceive the eye contact this animal is famous for. I personally think the red-throat form is a more beautiful animal as well.

Attached is a picture of one of my 06 hatchlings. The juvenile speckling will disappear as the animal matures leaving solid black, glossy, irridescent scales. This animal is looking at me and wondering what to make of the flashes of light, as it hadn't been photographed before.

I am beginning to release 2006 hatchlings. Males and pairs are available, $1,100 each. I also have a small number of yearling pairs (inquire if interested).

Compared with other reptiles, Easterns hold their value year after year. Ten years ago, hatchlings sold for $350 to $450. A federal permit is required for shipments outside of California. I work with buyers on their permit applications (easy actually) to make sure they are approved. No one that has applied for a permit for a purchase from me has ever been denied one. I also try to help people with their husbandry and breeding efforts. The world needs more keepers and breeders of Eastern Indigos.

You can e-mail me directly at [email protected] or phone at (310) 502-6311.

Do you produce a huge number of these every year or is this just a snake that's very hard to sell as I've seen you listing them for months now.. I'm asking because while I'm very interested in getting a trio of them I don't wanna deal with a snake that can't be sold.. Also, what is the reason for such a raise in price as I would guess that it's not demand due to you having to place so many ads to sell them.. I'm not being rude here so please don't take it that way, I'm honestly interested but just don't have the time to post ad after ad to sell a snake that doesn't produce large numbers of eggs as it is..

Marcia

You may want to copy this post into the Indigo General Discussion board. You will probably get many more answers there. I don't believe that indigos are difficult to sell but I understand they're difficult to successfully breed.

and it's not always that they are hard to sell per say, I think some would just rather not go through the process of getting a permit or anything thats needed.

I may be wrong but you don't need a permit to sell local! Only when you cross state lines.

Questions and answers

First: Robert has perhaps the largest and most diverse single collection of D. couperi in the world and produces more babies each year than anyone else.

Second: D. couperi are in high demand and most who produce them have waiting lists, but as was mentioned, USF&W interstate commerce permits are required for sales and trades across state lines, though such are not required for in intrastate transaction. Also, D. couperi can be shipped interstate without permits if the specimen is a gift or placed on breeding loan.

and finally

Third: Supply and demand determine the price of most things in a free market system and I have foudn Robert's prices to be in line with most other breeders and slightly less when you realize the demand and scarcity of nice red-chinned specimens.

Drymarchon spp. are great animals to work with and I am certain if you conducted a bit more research into the genus and spoke with a few breeders, you will find all of the answers to the questions you posed...

Best regards,

Jeff

So whats your point! I simply stated you don't need a permit to sell within your own state limits!

I would like to have some of them, but I live in Florida. We have them wild here as well, but collection is a no, no for sure. I don't even think we can have a permit here for them.

Good grief!

My post was not directed to you specifically, but rather the original post as presented by Marcia. There is often a great deal of confusion surrounding the shipping of D. couperi and you merely pointed out a single aspect of such...

That, my friend, is my point!

Jeff

You're right, Bobby!

One cannot keep D. couperi in Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Virginia, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, New York or New Jersey without a state permit and I only know of two private individuals who have obtained permits in Florida and one who is having any degree of success with obtaining such in Georgia. However, the New York and New Jersey permits are issued on a regular basis.
Folks in Florida and Georgia normally have to settle with keeping other members of the Dry clan, such as Texas Indigos and Mexican West Coast Indigos...

Best regards,

Jeff

You need a permit in Maine also. I don't know if it is difficult to get. But I am thinking of making the attempt.

Kevin

Thanks, Kevin!

I know that a few states require a local permit to keep any species amended to the US Endangered Species Act, which certainly includes D. couperi, and I would imagine such permits are much easier to acquire in states outside the current or historical ranges of the desired species. Of course, for those unable to acquire permits for D. couperi, there are always D. m erebennus and D. m rubidus to keep, both of which are equally impressive and similar in habit to their D. couperi cousins... ;0)

Best regards,

Jeff

Third: Supply and demand determine the price of most things in a free market system and I have foudn Robert's prices to be in line with most other breeders and slightly less when you realize the demand and scarcity of nice red-chinned specimens.

Click to expand...

Based on this statement you wouldn't think there were 4 breeders trying to sell them currently without any luck... Based on supply and demand not only will a price go up but down as well, something clearly none of them want to publicly do.. I have seen Robert selling or attempting to sell the same snakes for months and months without luck..

I guess as sad as it is to say, the politics and greed that have effected the rest of the snake market is making it's way into the Indigo as well... I have spoken with 2 breeders myself who have told me that they can't sell them for $1,000 but don't want to cut the price on others... Debeers is one clear example of supply and demand having nothing to do with a over priced product...

Not trying to be rude here or start a debate, simply pointing out that if you can't sell your snakes after months and months, have no waiting list and little interest the price at some point will have to be looked at as the possible issue..

I would like to see somebody making the supply and demand argument list a pair on reptileauctions.com and let it fly.. I think the price would come in much closer to $1,500 a pair as I think the Indigo will always be a $750 snake..

You're lacking facts!

Robert doesn't have simply one breeding pair of D. couperi, but rather 15.30 breeders within his current collection. He is not trying to sell teh same speciemns, but rather continues to place different specimens on the market at different intervals over a period of time.
You might want to educate yourself regarding the captive husbandry of D. couperi, as even at 1,100.00 - 1,500.00 each a breeder will be lucky to break even once an entire clutch has been sold given the care, time and investment required to produce the species and I do not know of anyone who has successfully worked with the species with nothing more than dollar signs in their eyes and I have been working with the genus for close to 30 years. Though I have given most everything I produce to various university and zoological entities.
It sounds to me as though you are suffering from "sour grapes" syndrome. If you cannot afford D. couperi, instead of letting the price act as an antagonist, perhaps you should change your method of thought and allow it to work as a motivator to work harder and save. I see the same negativity amongst those longing to have color morph Python regius and “designer” Morelia viridis. If you will not afford D. couperi, perhaps you should look into the acquisition of Pituophis lodingi, Lampropeltis g nigritus or Lampropeltis t gaigeae.
Personally, I find it in poor taste to condemn someone on their advertising regarding their price, especially when such is inline with current market values, and whine because they cannot or will not afford such.
If you know of another breeder offering red chinned D. couperi this year, other than Robert, I would like to know who they are. If you know of other breeders who say they will not drop their opening price, as to be fair to the other breeders, I’d suggest you negotiate with them under the table. The truth is, your logic is flawed, as most all breeders harbor a waiting list from year to year of individuals waiting to acquire the offspring they might produce. If the market was over pouring with D. couperi, then everyone would be offering such at a much lower price, but they are not and as my grandfather used to say; “The proof is in the pudding.”

Best regards,

Jeff

Excellent response Jeff and very telling of why the snakes wont' sell at the $1,100 mark... If you're telling me that the cost to keep them is higher then the return you get when selling the babies this would be the first snakes I've heard of where this is the case... Even at an every other year breeding of 6 eggs you're still talking $13,200-$18,000 in babies for a trio every other year.... That my friend is one costly snake to breed... It was never clear to me that Robert had that many nor that it was costing him $45,000 a year to maintain his collection... I'm not trying to debate with you, I understand snakes and the market very well and many year was the only breeder in the Country to produce a genus of snake... Even as such, there is still demand and market share to fight and clearly the overhead of caring for such a costly snake turns most people off... Thus the lack of people willing to take a loss like that yearly...

Thank you a million for your well spoken educated responses and I'm sorry if this came off like a debate.. It was just a shock to me to see them still for sale after Robert told me 3 months ago he wouldn't have anymore within a weeks time.. Maybe that in itself is a sign of the market and shows the need to pressure sell or create a fulse sense of demand.. I would say a snake is pretty mainstream when you can purchase it at will from one of any half dozen breeders...

The whole picture!

Marcia,

I appreciate your kind words, though I believe you should spend some time researching the Drymarchon spp. forums, as it is apparent you know little regarding the captive husbandry of the species and the problems associated with such, such research would go especially far if you are giving serious consideration to the acquisition of a pair or trio. Also, if you know of a half dozen, or so, breeders producing red-chinned D. couperi, again, I would like to know who they are, as I find it unlikely you know of any breeders of the species that I don't.
Perhaps you should pose your thoughts in the Dry forum, as I am certain youwill find even more answers that I have left out on teh topic.
To answer your question, yes, Drys are incredibly expensive to maintain and produce and no breeders produce D. couperi on the regular basis you have indicated within your post, as many females re-absorb their eggs, produce infertile eggs or become egg bound and expire. many eggs are often lost during incubation, as the incubation periods are quite long. You must also address the cost in time and energy required to maintain such a collection, to speak nothing of the cost of enclosures (they require large enclosures), facilities (it takes a large facility to house large enclosures) and feed (Drys are unlike boids or other colubrids and feed 2-3 times weekly). Again, I ask you to research some of the forums to this regard and come back once you are better educated on the topic, or better yet, post your thoughts and beliefs on the Dry forums to this regard.
Anyhow, if D. couperi are as "mainstream" as you would have us believe, then I am certain you should have no problem finding what yoyu want, at a price you are willing to pay and I wish you well in your search and acquisition.
Anyhow, I believe enough bandwidth has been used on this topic and I have a large collection of D. couperi which I must attend to...

Best regards,

Jeff

Well put my friend and again I thank you for clearing up the lack of interest in them at the $1,100 price range.. Many keepers like to at least break even in this hobby and from what you say it's not possible to do with this snake.. Above I spoke of getting an average of 3 eggs per year and you're telling me that isn't possible? Again, now I know why supply has gone up and demand down to the point that there are no waiting lists any longer.. I remember speaking with Lloyd once about a friend he had, making note that even at that time selling these for $175 each the joy of keeping them was worth him not making as much profit as he did on other snakes.. Maybe he was just a far better breeder that he could make a profit selling at 80% less then you do...

Lol

I believe you need to review the posts, Marcia,

As I stated in an earlier post, I give most of what I produce away to a variety of zoological and educational institutions as well as a few breeders and hobbyist. Actually, I have given away all of the D. couperi I have produced over the past 20 years, as in gifts and donations, no $$, bling bling or little green pictures of presidents. Not about profit for me, I simply love Drys and spend a great deal of time, energy and money working with them and educating others in regards their plight and captive husbandry. I actually never break even and if I were operating as a busines, I would have folded and filed for bankruptcy years ago, as my monthly feed bill alone is enough to pay the motgage on a nice home and I even pay the shipping for donated specimens to arrive at their new homes. so read what has been posted and get you facts prior to making a simian minded accusation.
Would you like for me to break down what I invest into my Dry collection each year and what I recover from any sales I make? I maintain very accurate records of such, thank you degei, and would be happy to share such with you, as I believe you would be surprised at the cost associated with Dry husbandry. Also, if your friend, Lloyd?, sorry don't believe I know him, has a friend selling D. couperi for 175.00, why on earth are you whining about Robert's prices and not acquiring the desired animals from him? Though I doubt you'll expound upon this.
I am curious though. If you believe your "theory" of price and demand holds true, then why not quit complaining and await for the bottom of the D. couperi market to fall out; then buy them? Of course, you could always fall back on your friend's friend selling them to you for 175.00, but I suspect you will not wish to elaborate on this either.
In short, quit whining and pony up, acquire a group for 175.00 each or get a "poor mans" indigo, as I suggested before.
Actually, I would like to know what exactly is the point you are trying to make, as I believe you haven’t done a very good job of making one, other than to whine about not being in the financial bracket to acquire D. couperi. Sorry, Marcia, that's just how it appears to me.

Best regards,

Jeff

Hey I've got a price list in my filing cabinet that sells Indigos for $2.00/ft. It's from the Thompson Zoo back in the late 60's. I did have a trio back then but never attempted to breed them. Actually I don't think I even knew what sex they were. Too bad, for me, that I didn't have a crystal ball. This has been a pretty interesting thread. Thanks, Jeff for some insight into the Indigo market.

Kevin

Jeff, not really sure what the point to your post was, I at no point addressed your motivation for keeping this snake... In fact I think that most breeders of them keep them for the correct reasons... Lloyd Lemke passed away years ago so I don't think I will be getting any animals from him or finding out just who he was talking about... If I were I think the price will have gone up..

If you'd been following this thread you would know my question and issue was just in purchasing a snake for $1,100 each and them not being able to sell... I can't see a valid reason that the price has gone up and I've yet to be given one...

Currently Cliff Miller, Forked-Toung and Robert Bruce have ads on Kingsnake (not what I would call the main way of selling this type of snake) and have all mosted mulitple posts...

Jeff, what you're telling me here holds ZERO weight! First breeders all have waiting lists then three breeders keep putting up posts on kingsnake without being able to sell them.. Then the snakes cost more to keep then can be made off them... Then the price is based on supply and demand but the supply seems to far exceed the demand...

Whatever, if this is how the Indigo people want to come off it's fine with me...

I say we can solve this right now by putting some of them up in the free market and seeing how much they sell for on reptileauctions.com, this would show what the demand is and set the market price but I doubt you or anybody else would do this as it'll show that the Indigo is a $700 snake end of story...

I'll await your justification of why your opinions of the market trump my facts as well as the reasoning behind why free market couldn't be figured out by an auction type format! Good luck with that!