View Full Version : To all fellow herpers, need some advise !!!

05-24-2002, 06:17 PM
Dear Herpers,
I am looking for a little feedback here please. For the moment I am going to leave names out of this. A friend of mine purchased a few snakes and gave them to an individual on breeders loan. Now these snakes included a pair of 2000 Albino Retics. A document was signed by the two parties stating that the offspring from the two retics in 2003 breeding season will be split 50/50. First of all I seriously doubt that the female will be ready to breed by then. But I guess anythings possible. Well since this agreement was made a few of my friends snakes that were on breeding loan to this person have died. Just recently a female Hogg Island Boa that was supposed to be gravid also just died.
This person did not even take the time to have the first snake seen by a vet or have a necropsy done it was just placed in the freezer and left there. Well another one came out sick and my friend went and picked it up and called me. Well I got the snake and took it to my vet the same day. Well I was very upset when the vet had told me that the snakes condition was fatal. So to end the suffering I had the snake put to sleep and a necropsy and a liver and brain biopsy done just to find out what this person exactly had going on in his collection. I cannot disclose the results right now, but I will tell you that I am very glad that I never brought the snake to my facility or will have to purchase any off his offspring !!! Now I am out several hundred dollars on a vet and the person that had this snake never spent a dime to help. Well now we find out that another one of my friends snake has died that was supposed to be gravid. Now I have heard and had snakes that have died while being gravid but again this person decided to freeze the snake with out knowing the cause of death and said that it was full of slugs.
To me this was not his decision to make. This person should have got in touch with the owner no matter how long it took and find out what his wishes were. It is just as safe to place the snake in the fridge for a couple of days, this is what happens to humans when they die, they do not just freeze them.
Well now in fear of loosing all his money and having the rest of his snakes die, my friend has asked for all of his snakes back. This did not fare well with the person who has the snakes. Even the retics that were signed upon by both parties in an agreement to be kept until the 2003 breeding season. Well now this person has told my friend that the only was that he will get his snakes back is to take him to court over them. So I decided to e-mail this person and tell him that the best thing to do is to give the snakes back to the original owner to avoid any legal troubles and to ensure the safety of the snakes. I have even offered in previous e-mails to come and pick up any sick snakes and pay for a vet to check them out. Well I was then told by this person to stop e-mailing them or he will report me to my ISP. Well I have not and will not stop e-mailing this person until I am able to remove these snakes from his possesion before they die from an unknown death !! In response to a recent letter I sent asking for the reurn of the snakes I was told that the adult Albino Retics would not be returned to the original owner and that only 50% of the offspring will be returned in 2003 breeding season from these Albino Retics ( which I doubt ). I was told that he would keep the adults in return for the money, time, and trouble that he has spent dealing with me and my friend. As I see it I am out allot of money when I took a snake that was in his possesion to the vet! So know as I see it he is in the wrong for not keeping with the terms of the agreement and not returning the adults.
So what I am asking is what would you do if someone had your snakes on a contracted breeding loan and would not return them to you because he was not happy with you. Even though you are in fear of the snakes life seeing that more that 2 have already died in this persons possesion and he will not do anything to find out why. Now I am not saying that he is killing these snakes intentionaly, but that something bad is going on when you have more that 3 snakes die in the same collection in the last few months. Of course I do have the documentation stating why one of the snakes died. I am really needing your opinions on what you would do about this. Please feel free to contact me via e-mail or 469-363-0635 for any additional information regarding this situation.


05-24-2002, 06:49 PM
I cannot believe one herper would do this to another herper. and one from the same town? This is Unbelievable. I cannot wait untill the name of this guy comes out so I can stay clear of him.
    This is my $0.02. If someone was to loan snakes to me on a Breeding loan. No Matter what the contract. If My snakes where killing off without reason. I WOULD GIVE THE LOANER SNAKES BACK. WITHOUT DELAY. If you have one snake Die then It is no big deal. This will happen sometimes. But to have two or more snakes kill over is a shure cause of concern for ANY Collection.
    Of course my NAME and My WORD is the most important thing I have. I feel if you cannot keep your word or Protect your own Name. YOU ARE TRASH.
    I am sure the contract DID NOT Say "Even if your snakes are dying off you can keep mine in the same condition". You will not win in court my friend. and by the time you do go through the court system it may well be to late for the snakes.
    I hope that whoever this person is will come to his right mind and hand the snakes back over to the rightfull owner of the animals.
     It is a VERY BAD day for me when I have to read Junk like this. I cannot fathom the thought of a person being this SELFISH when It comes to the animals that we all share the VERY SAME PASSION For.
    Whoever you are. If you read this. PLEASE Do the right thing and Give the snakes back to the original owner. Karma will pay you back either way.
Take Care

Neil Gubitz
05-24-2002, 06:57 PM
Well, Wyatt....It seems to me that you're talking about the dreaded IBD!! And,If this is the same person I think it is...there are A LOT of people that would like to talk to him!! Know what I mean??? Buddy...it doesn't sound like there is anything you can do...short of taking him to small claims court and let the judge decide....even then...I'm sure you're not going to want to put your snakes back into your collection?? This is a tough one! I would just go for the reimbursement of the dollar value and let him keep the snakes!
BTW...If you put a snake in the freezer....it's almost impossible to do an ecropsy....they should go in the fridge until the test is done!! It's your call, pal....but, I'd take him to court!! ....Neil

Glenn Bartley
05-24-2002, 08:22 PM

Sure there is something else you can do, and if you have proof that the snake you had checked at the vet died of a contagious disease then all the better. Contact the local SPCA. They have law enforcement status and police arrest authority in many aras. If you can show them good reason to believe that a contagious disease killed the one snake while in this guy's care, and then that others died while in the same guy's care using his own emails for evidence aling with the vet's report - well then they will likely have enough for a search warrant to go and search his snake room and also will possibly confiscate and test other snakes he has there. They are serious about this stuff in my neck of the woods (err concrete jungle). I live just outside New York City. Have you ever watched that show on Animal Planet where they lock up the dirt bags that really mistreat the animals. Good luck.

As for getting the snakes back, if it is IBD you may have to forget about them.

Classic Dum's
05-24-2002, 10:51 PM
I would try what Glen said, that very well may work, SPCA could confiscate them if you can prove what your saying and then you guys could get them from there or if they were my animals I would kick his door or head in, one of the two........

05-25-2002, 04:31 AM
That is a tough one. If the disease you mentioned that caused the deaths is IBD, i wouldnt want any of the snakes back in my collection, loss or no loss. But the indivdual at hand should have notified you when the snakes started dieing and been responsible enough to get a necropsy done on at least a few of them to narrow down the cause of death, especially in light of the fact that some of the snakes that died where not the guys, but your FRIENDS, and were on breeding LOAN. Loan is the operative word..
  Their cheapness in this matter, not wanting to take the snakes to the vet for proper diagnosis and necropsy, and their willingeness to hold onto your retics until they "bred" for them shows GREED and a shortsightedness. Albino retics are not cheap snakes, esp adults, and to treat something that someone else owns with such callouse disregard is wrong.  I agree with others here, legal and criminal steps need to be taken against this individual as well as a disclosure to those in the herp community so that others do not fall prey to the same chicanry as you did. The person has earned it.


                                 Fred Albury

05-25-2002, 08:52 AM
Fellow Herpers,
   Please know that none of these snakes are coming into my collection and I am not the ones with the Albino Retics on breeders loan. Trust me when the first snake had died I would have had all my snakes back no matter what the cost !!!  I am only asking everyones opinion to help aid in the safe return of my friends snakes. Although I may have to testify if this goes to court because I personally know both of the parties involved. I was asked by my friend to help in this situation just like with the snake I had to take to the vet and that is why I called on all my fellow herpers for your opinions.


05-25-2002, 07:54 PM
My inquisitive nature drives me to ask some questions. Why would someone lend a $5000 pair of snakes to someone but a most trusted friend? I wouldn't lend a $10 cornsnake to anyone but a close friend. Why would someone send a pair for breeder loan? Wyatt, why did you have to take the snake to the Vet.? Since your friend went and got one sick snake the person who has them I assume lives near by. Why doesn't your friend call the police and go get his snakes? I'm not trying to start a flame war here but this story seems to have some holes in it. I'd like Wyatt to fill them in. If I was sure of my position and had all the information Wyatt claims to have, I'd be naming names. Especially since a contagion might be involved. The public needs to know about that. Maybe I've been reading to many of Richie's posts.

05-25-2002, 10:05 PM
 I have no problem filling in some of the holes. My friend is very trusting individual and I am sure was talked into buying this person snakes so that he could breed them. I was not at this meeting between them I can only speculate. Now as far as them being $5000 snakes loaned to just any Joe Blow, I do not think this was the case at all. I beleive from what he has told me was that this person stated that he had very good success at breeding boas and pythons and that investing in his breeding efforts would pay off. Not the case as it seems, so far he has lost more than I would have put up with !!
  Now Tim the reason I am not saying any names at the moment is because  your opinions are being taken into consideration with my friends next move. I am being very lenient on how I play my cards. the reason I had to take the boa to my  vet was because I was asked to help and also I offered my services and contacts to a local Vet that is a zoo board certified vet and has always taken care of all my Boas and Pythons ( including our Angolans ). But you see this person would have rather froze the snake like the first one rather than have a vet check done on it. Right now you are on the right track with the police. I am not a trouble maker only trying to help, I promise I will let you all know who this is when the time is right and all of my friends snakes are back in his possesion. As of now I am asking for your help and opinions.


05-25-2002, 11:23 PM
Dear Time and all others,
  You may call me anytime to inquire personally about this situation and all parties involved. There are many more details that I will not divulge at the present time but will be happy to over a phone conversation.



John Hedger
05-26-2002, 04:47 AM
  Although in some breeding loans it is sometimes agreed that the breeder will keep the snakes after breeding them for two seasons or more I assume that such was not the case here.  It sounds like this breeder is changing the rules as he see's fit!  

   Also, because he is immediately freezing these dying snakes it seems as if this breeder is seriously "in denial" about the disease that could be killing his collection!  If this guy secretly knew he had, or "possibly" had a life-threatening contageous disease spreading through his collection then he ethically had no right taking on another persons snakes on breeding loan in the first place.  If I were him. I would own up to the disease or at least the "questionable possibility" of a disease and offer to pay full price for the loaner snakes and then keep them so as not to possibly spread the disease into the original owner's collection!
Although, unfortunately it sounds as if this guy may be too arrogant to do the right thing here and your friend may have to take him to court over it.
This is a breeding loan horror story if there ever was one!!!  It sounds like it's gonna be a mess!!

John Hedger