All Ohio Reptile Show- Vendors oppinions wanted

This show is held monthly in Columbus, OH at the UAW hall. It is a rather large local show, and it is my understanding that people from out of state frequent it as vendors. I have been to this show once, and did not have a good experience. I am looking for opinions from other vendors about their pollicy of allowing outside animals into the show.
All Ohio Reptile Show

* Live Reptiles & Equipment * Buy - Sell - Trade *

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* * All Animals Must Be Properly Contained in Cages or Aquaria * *

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By TRADE, they mean that people can pay their $3 admission fee and bring an animal in to the show that they want to trade with a vendor. These animals are not properly contained and can be diseased. A by product of this policy is that people paying the admission price can also bring animals into the show and sell to the crowd. While I'm sure this was not the intent of the promoters, it is allowed to happen anyway.

When reserving a table at this show, I was also told that the number of one kind of vendor is usually limited. ie. only a few people with Bearded Dragons will get tables because the vendors are unhappy if the market at the show is over saturated. I thought, great if I get a table I'm more likely to do well at this show. Unfortunately, the policy of allowing people to bring animals into the show neggates this principal totally.

I only noticed people bringing in snakes and lizards, so I don't think this would impact vendors with other types of reptiles (frogs and turtles), but your oppinions are encouraged as well.

All of these points were brought up to the organizer, by me, at the show. He did not seem concerned about my opinion, and said that he had never had a problem from other vendors. Can this be true?

Thanks for listening, I hope I was specific enough for the TOS.
Kisha Wernet

By TRADE, they mean that people can pay their $3 admission fee and bring an animal in to the show that they want to trade with a vendor. These animals are not properly contained and can be diseased.

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I have been visiting this show for many years. I started to supply the pet store I was partial owner in from certain vendors at the show. Almost 10 years now. It started off in just a few hotel rooms and has expanded into the size it is now. I have seen many vendors and customers come and go over these times. And I still know many of them to this day. I almost never miss a show, if for nothing else but to see what is being sold and buy some feeders.

The intent was to allow folks with animals to trade them to anyone interested in them. Vendors and customers alike. Remember, this show was just in a few hotel rooms and has expanded. It only had a few hundred visitors and now a few thousand, a dozen or so vendors to now 40 to 50 or so. So intitialy the limitations where mostly imposed due to the small size it was and to promote customers to visit and possibly trade with each other and the vendors. Everyone grew with these understandings in mind and have dealt with them for many years.

These animals are not properly contained and can be diseased. These animals are not properly contained and can be diseased.

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Very true, and buyer beware. If you see a violation tell the show staff and they will fix it. Dont wait until after the show to do so. By that point its to late.

When reserving a table at this show, I was also told that the number of one kind of vendor is usually limited. ie. only a few people with Bearded Dragons will get tables because the vendors are unhappy if the market at the show is over saturated. I thought, great if I get a table I'm more likely to do well at this show. Unfortunately, the policy of allowing people to bring animals into the show neggates this principal totally.

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Not really, many of the folks bringing in animals only have on or two and are not looking to out bid anyone or trying to saturate the market. They, for the most part, only want to get rid of what they have for various reasons. Not that many folks bring in stuff to sell, at least form what I have observed over the years. I cant see where a few customers can satutrate the market. The problem that does occur is that many dealers dont just specialize in one kind of animal. They bring in everything and anything to sell. Thats hard to control and almost impossible to try. But if a person specializes in one type only and 5 other dealers do as well, thats is what will be limited.

All of these points were brought up to the organizer, by me, at the show. He did not seem concerned about my opinion, and said that he had never had a problem from other vendors. Can this be true?

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Yep, it's pretty much been the same vendors year after year and they all for the most part get along and know each other well. The problems tend to crop up when a new vendor is trying to get their foot in the door and get established (not that that's the case here).


A question if you dont mind,
Are you having a problem with the fact that folks are bringing in animals to sell?

You should talk to Don Hamper. He will be more help if you are having problems at the show.

This is how I understand the show and the policies at the show from seeing it grow over the years and knowing many that are vendors at the show for many years. Hope this helps you some.

Feel free to email me if you want to discuss this some more. This thread will most likely get moved to the general discussion forum anyway.

Tim-
Thanks for your opinion. I posted this concern to get oppinions and insight from people like yourself, because I don't have much experience with this show. I posted on the BOI because thats where I was told it belonged, if it should be moved that's fine.

While I don't dissagree with the spirit of the "animals for trade" policy, I do have a major problem with unhealthy, uncontained animals being allowed into a show.

If you see a violation tell the show staff and they will fix it.

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I know its buyer beware, but some diseases are transmited through the air not just direct contact. And, I did report the uncontained, sick animals to show staff. Shouldn't that be caught at the door?
I now realize that the show started small, but mabey policies should change with the growing show.

A question if you dont mind,

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Are you having a problem with the fact that folks are bringing in animals to sell?

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I don't mind the question- Yes, ethically I do have a problem with folks bringing in animals to sell. Why bother paying a table fee if I can just pay $3 and bring a few reptiles to sell?
Have I experienced this problem first hand- Yes I have. The show I was at (the last one was yesterday, I went to the one before that) there were no less than 5 different people selling lizards out of plastic containers walking around the crowd. One was a Mom with group of supper cute young girls with signs on their backs that said "ask us about our Dragons, $85 each". They had 3 or 4 juv Bearded Dragons crammed into a critter carrier. Another was a large gentleman who stood accross from my table for 20min with a plastic rubber maid container with adult dragons in it labled FOR SALE.

I don't generally have a problem with trading animals at a show, but the animals should be CONTAINED, and should be for trade only, not for sale.

I did talk to several "people in charge", not sure if one of them was Don Hamper. I will try to email him with my concerns. But at the show it was made clear that I was not considered an important vendor. Which is why I won't go back. Granted, I am a small time breeder but I paid a table fee just like everyone else.

If I am truely the only person who feels this way, then fine. It's just that every time I tell this story to someone else in the business, I get the same reaction. So I thought I would do an inquiry to see if I am the only one bothered by the application of the 'animals for trade' policy, or the loophole it opens up.

Thanks for listening
Kisha Wernet

I do have a major problem with unhealthy, uncontained animals being allowed into a show.

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I do agree with you. The sick ones are hard to spot and most only use a bag to carry them in with as the container. Even some of the long term dealers sell sick animal after sick animal at the show. And the housing of animals at most shows(not just Columbus) is IMO less than ethical and humane treatment. But what do you do when space is at a premium.

And, I did report the uncontained, sick animals to show staff. Shouldn't that be caught at the door?

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Yes I agree here to. But it easy to stuff them under your coat this time of year and hide them.

Another was a large gentleman who stood accross from my table for 20min with a plastic rubber maid container with adult dragons in it labled FOR SALE.

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Next time ask him to move on or you will contact the show staff if he is "competing" for you customers. That they frown on and will do something ASAP to stop if they can see it. You should see what they do to folks that get caught stealing.

Dons table is almost always on the right as you first go in. His wife does most of the selling at the table. Don't give up on the show, it has some good points and they all have bad ones too.

I have been going to the show for years (haven't gone lately.. new job makes me work Saturday mornings.... it sucks!!!).. but... I don't sell there. I go to buy or just see what people are up to... I never really noticed alot of people bringing in herps to sell.. most everyone that I have seen has been for trades with breeders/vendors there. As with any show... no matter the size.. health concerns are always a big issue.. and.. I don't any one show could be considered 100% safe. I have yet to been to a show in which I saw every table with hand cleansers to use before or after handling a herp. (I bring my own usually... nothing is getting a free ride back on my hands!). I think.. as long as common sense is used.. the policy should not cause trouble.. and always remember.. just like this board teaches you... buy from those you know or you know have a good reputation.

I do see what Kisha is saying and Tim you have some good points also.

Still one thing to consider is this: Are any of these animals that people are bringing in for " show and trade" healthy and/or can you trust that these people will respectively NOT bring in any sick, outside animals?

Down here in TX, most vendors at the reptile shows were sick of seeing imports and wild caught animals sitting on tables beside their tables chock full of healthy, captive bred reptile delights. The end result? Most of them left, and some were asked to leave by the show owners themselves. All of this because the health issues of wild caughts and imports were a concern among well meaning captive breeders. The result was a major captive bred show put on by someone else, and even though it was smaller in size than other big shows, the affects were great.

Kisha, ask as many people as you can as to what their feelings are about this policy of allowing outside animals. If enough of you raise the concern of the show owners, you may be a part of a change. Who knows, perhaps others may feel the same as you do.

If I was back into breeding again, I personally would not bother selling at shows that allowed imports, wild caughts, and outside animals. I don't waste my time going to those types of shows now. My animals health and well being would be too much of a concern for me. How much ignorance there is in this world shouldn't have to take a toll or be a factor on our innocent animals.

It is quite irresponsible for the Ohio show owners to allow outside animals into the shows. One sick animal is all it takes to infest a whole collection. Also, their motives may mean well, but you can't control other people's intentions.

Take care all!

Billy Fraser

I personally would not bother selling at shows that allowed imports, wild caughts, and outside animals. I don't waste my time going to those types of shows now. My animals health and well being would be too much of a concern for me.

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Imported animals and WC animals are in no way, shape or form automatically in a state of ill health and the assumption and base premise that they are is virtually tantamount to an insult to competent and educated importers and collectors...

Without imported stock, captive stock diminishes in health as inbreeding to some degree becomes inevitable... Look at the majority of Australian herps as an example, beardies (P. vitticeps) being a prime display of smaller, less healthy, prone to all manner of problems, short lived animals when compared to wild stocks... even those disgusting color morphs are all a result of massive inbreeding...

A competent and educated importer works four times as hard to ensure that their animals are healthy than your average small scale breeder, their reputation and livelyhood depends on it because ignorant individuals... such as yourself... assume that WC animals are destined for an early death and condemn the much needed process without understanding exactly what it entails or how -most- importers and collectors go about performing it.

My question

answer

Just in case anybody thought that people off the street didn't actually sell to customers at this show,,, follow the links to see an example of what I'm talking about.

Why bother to pay $35 for a table??? Especially if you only have a few animals to sell.

Kisha
Ps I hope these links are allowed.

Why bother to pay $35 for a table???

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If you don't feel it's worthwhile to pay the table fee...

Don't pay the table fee. Easy answer... It's your choice to do so or not do so as you see fit, it's the choice of the individuals running the show to do as THEY see fit. If you accept the consequence of not having a table, I'm sure they can accept the consequence of not having your thirty five dollars.

Especially if you only have a few animals to sell.

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Why would you pay for a table if you only have a few animals anyway ?!

Seamus, you are absolutely correct, WC animals play a significant part in strengthening existing bloodlines by outcrossing. Imports are also important when breeders are trying to establish captive breeding programs with rare species, or new color morphs.

I also agree with the previous poster in that I do not attend shows, as a vendor, that allow WC animals to be sold (by the public or other vendors) and, Seamus, I can assure you it is not because I am "ignorant", as you put it in an earlier post. I choose not to attend these shows as a vendor because I do not want to risk the health of the captive bred reptiles that my husband and myself care about so much and work so hard to produce . Unfortunately, many of the WC animals that are available for sale at shows are "fresh off the boat" imports that carry internal and/or external parasitic loads. People at herp shows like to touch and hold the animals they are considering purchasing (I am the same way). With fresh WC animals there is a risk of transmitting numerous nasties from them to the healthy animals at the show. BTW, we would not do a show where ANY unhealthy animals were being sold, cb or WC. I don't care how much money we can make at a show, it's not worth risking the health of our animals is it?

As far as the original post by Kisha, my advice would be this:
Don't go back to that particular show!

Billy

Still one thing to consider is this: Are any of these animals that people are bringing in for " show and trade" healthy and/or can you trust that these people will respectively NOT bring in any sick, outside animals?

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Unfortunately, you cant even trust some of the vendors with this one.

It is quite irresponsible for the Ohio show owners to allow outside animals into the shows. One sick animal is all it takes to infest a whole collection. Also, their motives may mean well, but you can't control other people's intentions.

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Again, you cant even trust some of the dealers with this one. But I think the line about being irresponsible is totally incorrect. How can any show sponsor guarantee that all the "vendors" animals are totally healthy? Let alone the carry-ins? You are making a HUGE assumption in your remarks that ALL vendors can be trusted. Simply look at all the posts here and see how many bad experiences with dealers are posted on a daily basis.

Scott said it very well when he said,

As with any show... no matter the size.. health concerns are always a big issue.. and.. I don't any one show could be considered 100% safe.

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I was a vendor at the Columbus show for about ten years. I no longer do the show because for me it just does not make sense to compete with my friends on the same sales to the same people year after year. It gets old when you know everybody.

I would say that one misconception that I have seen in this thread is that a vendor will have higher quality and more healthy animals than the people through the door. I have really been very unhappy and very vocal this season about show promoters all over the country putting a priority on taking money for tables over screening for quality of animals. I have been to several shows, both large and small this year that I was disgusted at the super poor quality of animals on tables! I have seen close to dead and actual dead animals being displayed for sale on vendor tables! Ethics and quality have taken a back seat to $!

I have also been extremely dissapointed at the volume of imported animals at captive bred shows. I have no problem with imports and time to time buy imports myself if they are something that I want, BUT I have an enormous problem when show promoters allow vendors to pass low quality wild caught animals as captive bred at their shows! It is a black eye on the industry!

The Columbus show does not hide or misrepresent anything. It is wide open. You can sell wc or cb. That is fine.

The issue with the quality of all shows and all animals at shows is directly a result of the vendors that you have at that show. It should be the promoter working to keep the show clean, but most don't take the time. Keep in mind though, just like any other show, Columbus has a vast majority of great people with good animals. Then there are a couple slobs with total garbage! Hopefully a buyer can spot that difference and make the right choices if the show won't do it for them. Evan Stahl

First, Seamus, for you to say I am ignorant is immature and, well....ignorant. Cheap shots are for kids, please be more mature in your posts. I will not even treat you as the same, hopefully setting an example for you.
I do agree that we need wild caughts for breeding purposes. To say that we don't doesn't make sense.
I will admit that my assumptions about imports and wild caughts are based by my experience. What I have seen, heard, and seen again has not been good. BUT, as Tim said, there are cases of captive animals being sick as well, and cases of bad captive breeders. I did not debate that. My point was, as a whole, the comparison of captive bred vs. imports. If imports and wild caughts were so great, healthy, and posed no problems, then why don't people just buy that, and ignore captive bred animals?
I agree with Kelli H, about the show situation. Her and her husband Steve are great breeders and an example of class acts in this business.

Take care!

Billy

Icky sticky........
A debate over CB, CBB vrs WC.

That's another topic for another long weekend. And both sides have some valid points. I currently own both and see the value in having both but that's a risk I am willing to take. The dealer IMO makes all the difference in TRUST and the HEALTH of the animals. Not to mention how they deal with a problem should one arise.

I too wish they would go CB or CBB only. But unfortunately, that's not going to happen any time soon. It would be nice if they did an alternating month with CB, CBB and anything goes the next.

Carry-ins are not common place and very few really do it. It's hardly worth banning a show IMO. And even less than getting all out of whack about. But to each his own.