Baytril Question

[FireStorm]

I just had a quick question for those of you who have used Baytril in snakes. Hopefully I'll never need to use it, and of course I would check with my vet first. My question is this: How common are injection site reactions and what, if anything can be done to prevent/treat them? I know Baytril is used quite a bit for reptiles (I've only used it in other animals) but I was just curious about how serious the reaction was.

Thanks,
Shelly

[armchairangel]

I have given one of my ball pythons baytril injections. I also did my vet tech internship at a clinic that specialized in exotics and administered it to snake patients many times. My own snake had a few site reactions. It was a little, hard bump at the injection site. This is common and not a problem. It is a reaction of the body as it identifies a foreign substance and tries to keep it isolated. It can be compared to the bump you get from a mosquito bite or a shot. This doesn't make the medicine ineffective; the bump goes away in a day or two and the medicine is absorbed. Don't be alarmed at this sort of an injection site reaction. There isn't a treatment for them; Oleander's bumps went away on their own in a few days. I just monitored them to be sure they didn't increase in size. The only thing that might help prevent them is to rub the injection site right after the medication is given to help distribute it to a larger area. In short, it is nothing serious, but rather similar to bumps we get on our arm after a shot.

[FireStorm]

Thanks - that's exactly the kind of info I was looking for. That sort of reaction doesn't concern me too much. I usually do all of my horses' vaccines, and I have a couple who always react like that to them. I had just heard about scarring from Baytril in snakes, and wasn't sure if that severe reaction was typical. It's good to know they don't always have such a severe reaction.

Thanks again,
Shelly

[reptodude]

armchairangel hit it on the spot. I have also seen from my boa a slight burning of the scales around the injection site. Smaller than a dime, but the area turned a white/tan color. Only had this happen once, and the doctor used a high dosage of bayril. It was a new product. Less amount, more power type of deal.

[hhmoore]

probably the large animal concentration - so you didn't have to inject large amts.

I have used baytril many times over the years...and on a few occasions have experienced the necrotic tissue and scarring you mentioned. It has occurred both with the 22.7 mg/ml and the 100 mg/ml concentrations. There may have been some situational variables, but they don't stand out in my mind.

[crotalusadamanteus]

I've had to use the 22.7 mg/ml over the last several months. Actually have injected 2 whole 20ml vials @ 2.1cc doses without a single injection site reaction.

As for how common...really hard to say accurately. I had a BP that reacted in 3 spots during his course of Baytril. An Afrock that only reacted in one spot. But those are it. I've had countless other rescues that never had a reaction to either strength.

Me personally, I wouldn't refer to it as a common thing.


Rick

[armchairangel]

These must be larger snakes you've been treating with the 22.7 and 100mg/mL concentrations. The vet i worked for typically used dilutions that were much weaker, however, we would be treating baby snakes that were around 100 grams.

[crotalusadamanteus]

Actually...you're right for the most part. BUT, I've been given 22.7mg/ml for a dwarf Boa weighing no more than 56 grams too, and he turned out great! Of course, like 0.2cc dosages though. :rofl:

Baytril's good stuff if it's needed. It's a lot kinder to kidney's and liver than some others I've had to use. Coming from someone who really don't like anti biotics, that's saying a lot.

[hhmoore]

These must be larger snakes you've been treating with the 22.7 and 100mg/mL concentrations. The vet i worked for typically used dilutions that were much weaker, however, we would be treating baby snakes that were around 100 grams.
Those are the "standard" out of the bottle concentrations. 22.7 mg/ml is the dog formula (says so right on the bottle), 100 mg/ml is for large animal (livestock/cattle). The large animal concentration is great for large snakes, and even better on medium sized ones. (I definitely prefer injecting smaller doses - the first problem I ever encountered with Baytril was with a burm that was getting 6cc)

[jhsulliv]

Regardless of whether or not you see a reaction from a Baytril injection, you need to remember that Baytril is by no means a benign drug. As someone stated earlier, it is much easier on the kidneys than say amikacin, but if you look at a pathology report of a Baytril injection site, there is definite tissue damage. It's a valuable drug when used sparingly as there is very little bacterial resistance to it.

[armchairangel]

Actually...you're right for the most part. BUT, I've been given 22.7mg/ml for a dwarf Boa weighing no more than 56 grams too, and he turned out great! Of course, like 0.2cc dosages though.

I also remembered after I posted that not only does the dosage depend on the weight of the animal, but the condition that is being treated. We also treated a lot of chelonians with baytril and another commonly used injectable with reptiles is ivermectin, for parasites. I very well could be confusing the concentrations of the two different meds and what is common for turtles. *L*

[hhmoore]

It's been a while, but if memory serves - baytril is highly toxic to chelonians...to the point that it was almost a "do not use" drug for that application. That might explain the dilution you had mentioned earlier.

[FireStorm]

Thanks for the input everybody! Sorry I didn't check back sooner. My computer had a meltdown and I had to wait for the replacement. I appreciate the info. It's good to know that the more serious reactions aren't all that common. I have only used Baytril in mammals before, so I wasn't sure.

I've always been very involved in my horses' veterinary treatment, and I want to be informed about my reptiles, too. I just figured I would do my homework before I actually need the info :).

Thanks again,
Shelly

[FireStorm]

One more thing - does the more serious reaction resolve on its own, or does it need treatment?
Thanks,
Shelly

[hhmoore]

If, by "more serious reaction" you are referring to tissue damage & necrosis, it doesn't resolve or get treated. If there is noticeable damage, the result may be permanent discoloration (I have been able to point out injection sites several years later, in some cases...but mild discoloration sometimes does resolve), or scarring. If the discoloration begins to turn black - expect it to open, scab, and scar. All you can really do is offer supportive care - keeping the wound clean and preventing infection.

If you were referring to the renal toxicity - I suspect that the toxicity can be resolved with hydration and time; but my guess is that if it actually damages the organ, the functional impairment would be permanent (once the damage is done....)

[crotalusadamanteus]

My search abilities suck, or I'd link you to an example that I saw posted on a forum. I thought it was here, but I'm drawing a blank.

Anyway, it shows what an injection site reaction can look like. Basically a discolored spot where it occurred. I suspect the key is to get it into the muscle. If you miss, it runs under the skin, and this may be where the necrosis happens. (a wild guess)

I never had to deal with necrosis from an actual injection, but My big girl Aurora got plenty of it when a Vet put Baytril into an abscess that was being treated. It ran under the skin and actually caused several spots of necrosis under her skin, over an area of about 10 inches in length. In this extreme example, all the necrotic tissue had to be surgically removed, to get it under control.

[armchairangel]

Yup, I read about Aurora... amazing story! Good for you that you stuck with all her treatments and I'm glad that she's coming through it!

If toxicity is an issue, yes, the way to help would be through giving fluids. This would most likely be done by giving it SQ or IV (in a snake, IV can be tough, so SQ would probably be more common). And yes, the key to prevent skin issues is to get it into the muscle as previously stated.

[FireStorm]

Thanks again for the info, everybody. You've all been really helpful, and this thread has really cleared up my questions. It seems like a lot of this is pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking.

Thanks again,
Shelly