Please help - diagnosis mouth rot?

[Helenthereef]

I'm overseas with no herp vet available, I've inherited a small male Fiji boa (Candoia bibroni bibroni) with a mouth problem, and I'd really appreciate some help with diagnosis / appropriate treatment advice. Some pictures at the end of this.

It might just be an old rub wound, or maybe mouth rot (which I have never seen). There is definite damage, scarring and missing scales on his right upper lip, and what may be inflammation or rub damage to existing scales around the damaged area. His mouth shape is lopsided and his mouth opens a little crookedly. Once his mouth is open I see no inflammation or damage inside his mouth. He doesn't blow bubbles or have any other obvious symptoms.

I've known this snake since January 2009. His last owner says he was eating (f/t geckos) voluntarily, but infrequently. He's smaller than other males of his approximate age. I think he's around 3 - 4 years old - he's about 70cm long and 120gm when others of his species are 80 - 100 cm long and 200 gms.

I got him in July, and he has NEVER shown ANY interest in food since then. I have force fed him f/t geckos twice since then, and on the second feeding he started to voluntarily move his jaws in a regular feeding motion. Photos show no apparent change to the extent of this injury since I got him.

This is his native country, so I am not using heating or misting. He (and 8 other of this species) are kept in an open-air enclosure at his natural temperature and humidity. I don't have any similar problems with any of the others.

He's in quarantine and I want to add him to the main area. Obviously if this is something infectious I'm not going to do that, and I'd want to treat him (I'd have to use available human or cat/dogs meds). ANY opinions or advice would be really welcome.

Many thanks!
Helen

[singingtothewheat]

Wow, I think I'd really try to find a herp vet. If you from the states and you had a herp vet, then try contacting them for some sort of help. That looks pretty bad. I have heard that cleaning with 1:1 hydrogen peroxide and sterile water is helpful. Or dilute betadine but I really think you need a systemic medication for that

[Helenthereef]

Yeah, would love to consult herp vet, but I'm in Fiji, and it simply isn't an option. Can, and will, do betadine bath easily, but if this IS an infection it's very slow moving (like no change in 6 months)

[Helenthereef]

BTW,
Thanks for response !
Helen

[Twizted Paths]

Do you guys have neosporin (without pain relief)? You could use it on the outside to help aid healing, minimize scarring and stop any surface infection.

[Helenthereef]

I have neosporin as an antibiotic cream, I have antibiotic powder, and can get oral antibiotics from my sympathetic GP if I can work out dosage - does this look like mouth rot? And if so is it bacterial or fungal? (I have read conflicting accounts)

[singingtothewheat]

I normally would not give this sort of advise but if there are no rep vets in fuji... I would look online for a vet to give you their feelings on the infections. Then I'd start looking for a way to get the medication to treat it. There is something going on there. I think probably a long term ruminating bacterial infection.

[singingtothewheat]

the only other thing I can think it would be is some sort of a carcinoma

[Helenthereef]

I'm willing to try anything that doesn't hurt him or alienate him unnecessarily - he already doesn't love me much for the force feeding!

[Helenthereef]

I don't see any evidence of a mass or growth that would suggest carcinoma, and there is no apparent injury inside the mouth (at this juncture I should add that I used to be an animal technician, but with mammals not reptiles). I'm not familiar with the potential timescale of reptilian infections. I appreciate that ideally we'd swab for infecting organisms, but I don't think I'd get doctors to take this seriously here.

I know I am going to make vets cringe, but in past situations I have dosed with oral antibiotics scaled down by volume /weight from the human dose suspended in water or egg yolk without any apparent ill effects. (I do have animal experience and common sense.)

I'm hoping that someone can advise me on this instead of my shooting in the dark. This snake has survived whatever this is for at least 12 months now, so it's not an immediate emergency, but I'd like to make him more comfortable and get him eating without force.

Thanks to both of you for responses so far

[singingtothewheat]

Contact these people and ask for assistance.
Society For The Prevention of Cruelty To Animals
155 Foster Rd Walu Bay, Suva
Ph: 3301266
Vakabua Veterinary Consultancy Services
Lot 1 Ivitavaya Rd Laucala Beach Estate, Nasinu
Ph: 3621109
Veterinary Care (Fiji)
Carpenters St Raiwai, Suva
Ph: 3372212
1


Chief Veterinary Officer
Ministry of Agriculture
PO Box 2526
Wellington
New Zealand

[Helenthereef]

Thanks Mona - you have resources!

The previous owner took the snake to the Laucala Bay vet - she thought it was not an infection, and didn't offer any treatment options. I haven't tried the SPCA with this case, but have been before with cats and dogs and in my assessment they are dedicated but limited. I may try the NZ address after the New Year holiday though.

Many thanks for the efforts!

[angie.h]

Hi Helen,do you have unpasteurized honey in your area? If you do,Google medicinal honey,use in humans+animals.I have used it with excellent+quick results.It is a natural anti-bacterial+antibiotic.

[Helenthereef]

Hi Angie,
Well, we do have honey production in Fiji, and they do produce honey for local sales (no idea if pasteurised or not), I'll have to look around. Now you mention it, my mother (in the UK) was treated with special medicinal honey for a foot ulcer, so I've heard of this, but certainly hadn't made a link here. I'll look around, thanks for the idea.

I'm interested in whether anyone has seen this type of damage before - at this point I still do not have any evidence that it is a progressing infection, and I don't want to undertake any treatment unnecessarily. This snake stresses every time he is handled, (urinates or defecates every time) possibly because of previous attempts to treat this injury.

[JordanAng420]

Hey Helen,
Let me first say that I cannot legally "diagnose" an animal. So, I can't say "Yes, this is what it is." I can, however, give my opinion as far as treatment goes. This snake has some very suspicious rostral damage, and to me that looks nothing like mouth rot. Mouth rot generally affects the inside of the mouth as well as the outside. The wounds appear to be from the snake rubbing his nose on something at one point. I'd be inclined to believe this was exacerbated by live prey items he ate before he came to you, and could be why he's not eating well.

I would NOT use hydrogen peroxide on a snake, or any other reptile. If you have chlorhexidine, I would go ahead and dilute some of that, and wash his face with it two or three times a day. I then would get Silvadine cream and apply that twice daily. I would keep offering him food at regular intervals to get him used to to the idea of getting fed regularly...

[Helenthereef]

Hi Maia,
Many thanks for your opinion (I understand you cannot officially diagnose from on-line photos).

The damage definitely does not extend inside his mouth, and has not apparently changed in over a year, definitely not in the six months I've had him. I felt / hoped that it was not an infection, but as I have never seen mouth rot I wanted someone to look at this with an educated eye.

I have Betadine (Povidone iodine) in liquid and lotion form. I have used the diluted liquid as a bath when introducing new snakes. Is Silvidine interchangeable with this? If not I'll look around and see if it's something available here. If this treatment is effective would I expect to see any physical change or just prevent further damage?

And, while I have your attention, do you (or anyone else) have any opinion
about a product called Repta Aid? (see pics below). It's a food supplement I picked up when I last passed through the USA, and I tried it on this little guy as he was severely dehydrated and not eating.

I originally made it up as directed, but it was thicker than I expected. I gave him a little of the thick solution, then force fed him 2 geckos and then a thinner solution of the Repta Aid, and some plain water. He kept the geckos and the liquid down, but regurgitated the thicker Repta Aid paste. However he seems to be doing a lot better now, and has passed a full stool, which he had not done for 2 months.

I force feed with reluctance, but this snake is very small, and in the past 6 months the only two meals he has had have been force-fed geckos. In between force feeding he becomes inactive, dark, thin, and shows thick oral mucosa and dark oral colouration. After feeds he quickly improves.

I'm wondering whether to continue to force feed him geckos and water or to continue with a thin solution of the Repta Aid.

I really appreciate the input - this forum is invaluable to me out here in th islands!

[angie.h]

Hi again Helen....I don't know about the Repta-aid,maybe someone else will comment on that.It sounds like whatever he can keep down is the thing to go with.I did want to mention that the snake has been ill for a long time and you mentioned that any handling causes distress.I know you can't gauge his suffering but I would like to mention 2 benefits of honey versus the a.biotic creams.One is that compared to the horrible taste that it must endure from the a.b.creams,the honey would be a welcome relief...the other is that if you look at the report on the medicinal honey website,it seems to work better+faster than the creams,according to the report.Safe+non-toxic AND you can put it on your cereal or in your tea !! LOL Just thought I'd throw that out there.No one can really say WHAT will work but you do want to try whatever causes the least discomfort.

[singingtothewheat]

thanks go jordan for her opinion. I will keep the h202 thing for future reference. This certainly makes sense.

[Helenthereef]

Yes, thanks again for that tip, I had never thought of applying mediical honey to snakes, but your points make a lot of sense.

Re stress on handling, the little fellow holds VERY tight and actually shakes and then invariably defecates when handling (or just passes urates if he is empty of stool), and I interpret this as stress. His previous owner was a young, but very intelligent and knowledgeable boy, and I wonder if he's either been over-handled, or if previous vet visits and treatment attempts have caused this.

Either way I need to win his trust, and pleasant tasting treatments must help that!

[Helenthereef]

Just an update for those who followed this little tale:

He has now shed and started feeding voluntarily. There's no progression in the mouth damage and so it seems it probably was an injury, not mouth rot. The injured portion shed OK, but was scaleless, just skin.

I force fed him F/t geckos once a week for 2 weeks, and gave him 2 doses of very dilute Repta-aid. For another 2 weeks I forced geckos into his mouth but once in, he started eating them and swallowing voluntarily. Now he's taking F/t geckos from the floor of a feeding tank. So far he's done this 3 times in a row, and I am close to declaring him CURED!

Will post pics soon. I am VERY relieved, and grateful to all those who posted assistance and suggestions - I didn't use them all, but all were helpful and reassuring, so thanks a lot! :thumbsup:

[JordanAng420]

I am so glad you're seeing such positive results, Helen! Looking foreward to seeing new pics. Good for you! :)

[angie.h]

Yes,I'm glad to hear it...and funny but I was thinking of inquiring about it the other day.

[Twizted Paths]

So was I. Thanks for the update :)

[Helenthereef]

Here are some pics of the road to recovery... :):):)

1. First shed in many months

2. Shed skin (inside out of course) showing area over injury

3. Nice clean head shot after shed

[Helenthereef]

And then his first unassisted feed and a general "feeling much better now" shot.

Thanks again for everyone's support - it helps enormously to talk to other people who understand the problems and who don't think you're a complete lunatic if you worry about a little snake! :D

[Twizted Paths]

Awesome job Helen, especially with the limited resources you have! I know that has to totally up the anxiety when things aren't going quite right.

And somebody has to worry about the little snakes :yesnod:

[Helenthereef]

If I could I'd buy everyone a :beer:

[angie.h]

If he didn't have a gecko in his mouth you would almost want to give him a kiss....oh,but make my drink of choice must be rootbeer...I'm allergic to the other.

[Helenthereef]

:rofl:

[angie.h]

No wonder you're laughing Helen,look how I worded my last reply. Surely any feckless pragmatist would find that to be totally hilarious.....

[Helenthereef]

Rest assured I am laughing WITH you, not........:dgrin: