animal planet

[gsrept]

:angry::angry:what is the deal we are trying to save the reptile industry with scientific facts and then we have animal planet running a three hour show about the snakes in florida eating everything from evasive rats to the neibors kid i think we should all boycott animal planet they are making all herp owners out to be erisponsible pet owners and last i checked some one that spends a couple of thousand on a snake is not going to release it into the wild. we need to start micro chipping all reptiles in the industry so that they can be tracked and if they are released they would be able to tell who the owner is. what do you all think.

craig sharpe
golden scale reptiles

[USARK.Jonathan.Brady]

There's already a boycott underway on facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=378993595070

[sschind]

[QUOTE=gsrept;893332]:angry::angry:what is the deal we are trying to save the reptile industry with scientific facts and then we have animal planet running a three hour show about the snakes in florida eating everything from evasive rats to the neibors kid i think we should all boycott animal planet they are making all herp owners out to be erisponsible pet owners and last i checked some one that spends a couple of thousand on a snake is not going to release it into the wild. we need to start micro chipping all reptiles in the industry so that they can be tracked and if they are released they would be able to tell who the owner is. what do you all think.

craig sharpe

I don't think its the thousand dollar morphs that are in the everglades, its the $50.00 normals that get dumped. Thing is, It doesn't matter, a snake is a snake is a snake to them.

[chris97]

I watched that! Even though they were ruining the reptile industry more to a degree I never new specfically niles were released around there.

[gsrept]

realize its not the thousand dollar morph but they have were introduced into the glades back in the 1970's and have had the last thirty or so years to proliferate it has nothing to do with the reptile industry.

[Flatlander]

I saw the "Alien" show and the "Fatal Attraction" one and they were both shocking and disgraceful. wtf???? What the hell is wrong with Animal Planet? Unbelievable.

[R. Eventide]

Animal Planet is definitely going downhill when it comes to animals, especially reptiles.

They recently did a stunt called "Venom in Vegas" where the host of one of their shows lived in a glass box for 10 days with 100 snakes of a wide variety of species, locales, climates, etc. I was appalled that they considered this stunt humane and "educational."

[StrictlyExotics]

I wouldnt be surprised if Animal Planet is just another front for all of the anti-animal groups in the world. Its propaganda in a nutshell. I know there are tons of Steve Irwin fans out so I hold all statements regarding him but, he was probably the most irresponsible reptile enthusiast out there. If I want to watch animals shows, I will watch National Geographic, and the old 70s shows at that. Those REALLY taught us what animals were like in their natural habitat.

[R. Eventide]

Well, all media is propaganda, so Animal Planet isn't unique in that regard. If people would think about what they're watching/reading/seeing instead of just accepting everything as truth, this wouldn't be as much of a problem.

I do have to agree about Steve Irwin, at least a little bit. I do think he did a ton of good, but it doesn't excuse his poor practices (tailing venomous reptiles, for instance).

[StrictlyExotics]

I agree, not everything he did was bad. I just felt that publically showing his carelessness sort of ruined this hobby because I am sure EVERYONE views us as being careless as well as reckless like him.
As for the media propaganda issue, you are right. I am just concerned that now, Animal Planet has become part of the agenda as well. Recently, in the last month or so, I was watching a Jerry Springer spinoff and it showed a reptile keeper with monkeys, hots, dogs, and all sorts of things one shouldnt be exposing on a syndicated national TV show being busted because his moms g/f sons wife's brothers daughter was exposing their infant children to the alligator that slept in their bedroom.
It was disgusting, at best, that someone so careless is representing my hobby on TV. I am not great by any means, but our hobby is and I hate the fact that the only publicity that we get is a negative one.

[NewPort Reptiles]

I sure do Miss the days when Mr Steve Irwin was on Animal Planet

[gsrept]

not to get on the irwin trashing band wagon. but i give him credit for his knowledge and enthusiasim for all reptiles and animals in general. i do not agree in the way he went about it. not a help to the reptile industry or animal conservation for that matter and his carelessness is what cost him his life. I honestly think even though we as hobbyists have come so far there are still to many people out there that make impulse buys and i partialy blame the pet stores for selling people certian animals that beginers should not have. not only snaes but this includes a lot of chameleons and large lizards as well.

[R. Eventide]

Couldn't agree more, Craig. I firmly believe that pet stores should not be allowed to sell certain reptiles because people who truly know what they're getting into will probably be buying from a breeder anyway (or, at the very least, they wouldn't have a problem with having to buy from a breeder). ProExotics has some great explanations as to why they don't sell certain reptiles: http://www.proexotics.com/FAQ2.html#17, http://www.proexotics.com/FAQ2.html#18.

[gsrept]

chad brown has always been an outstanding breeder in te industry have not had a chance to buy anything from him but i am considering getting a pair of boleons pythons he has a nice captive group and has babies availible sometimes. great guy and breeder. any who i think the pet stores should have to at least produce some type of record of what they sell and to who they sold it and maybe there should be some type of test for people wanting to buy larger constrictors.

[boaman83]

im at a loss of words when i seen those shows on animal planet.And the "experts" on there and no reptile lover would agree on any of the "facts" on the show and the so called traping look liked 3 year olds chasing snakes maybe if they took a calm and gently form of obtaining a berm it wouldnt act so pissed off .And python hunting in florida they said their cleared for rifle use come on this is not ice cube and jennifer lopez in "anaconda" its not that serious and why dont they try adoption outside of florida for these animals to responsible owners like us on here i mean i now its about the money with small adoption they could still get paid since thats what their after with the hunting permits in the first place.

[Southern Wolf]

I wouldnt be surprised if Animal Planet is just another front for all of the anti-animal groups in the world. Its propaganda in a nutshell. I know there are tons of Steve Irwin fans out so I hold all statements regarding him but, he was probably the most irresponsible reptile enthusiast out there. If I want to watch animals shows, I will watch National Geographic, and the old 70s shows at that. Those REALLY taught us what animals were like in their natural habitat.

You might want to rethink that statement. I saw a couple things from Nat Geo that just turned my stomach last night. On the other forum that I am an Admin on I asked for "your fav herp related youtube videos." After watching one that was posted a video from Nat Geo was in the related section. Guess what it was about. Killing snakes. They were clubbing a RTB in what looks like native habitat then beheaded it... and they had another clip where they beat and beheaded a viper that was in a sandy habitat. I had to turn off the computer after that. Nat Geo was just sensationalizing the clubbing and killing of snakes.

[StrictlyExotics]

No I am talking about the videos we saw in science class way back when we were in Jr High.. you know those ones Narrated by some old famous guy back when Davey Cricket and Grizzly Adams were famous... LoL

[Southern Wolf]

Dean... now your just making me feel old. But yeah.. I remember which ones you mean.

[StrictlyExotics]

I am right there with you bud;)

[Serenity]

I was a bit disgusted as well. It seems to promote that all reptile keepers are irresponsible and all snakes are huge and poisonous. And what was that "hidden camera" doing at the Hamm show???? That just portrayed reptile shows as akin to a drug deal! Even my hubby, who is not into snakes, was getting upset! I muttered something about the Humane Society promoting the show and when the commercials came on, guess what one of the ads was for? Hmmmmm.

Devon

[R. Eventide]

You might want to rethink that statement. I saw a couple things from Nat Geo that just turned my stomach last night. On the other forum that I am an Admin on I asked for "your fav herp related youtube videos." After watching one that was posted a video from Nat Geo was in the related section. Guess what it was about. Killing snakes. They were clubbing a RTB in what looks like native habitat then beheaded it... and they had another clip where they beat and beheaded a viper that was in a sandy habitat. I had to turn off the computer after that. Nat Geo was just sensationalizing the clubbing and killing of snakes.

Ugh. Makes me sad to see National Geographic going downhill like that.

I was with them all the way until they put out a quick article about he Florida Burms that was completely one-sided (PETA's side), stating false information as fact and such. They realized their mistake fairly quickly (but only after getting lots of negative feedback) and put out another article from the reptile keepers' perspective, but to me, the damage had already been done. If they can't publish thought out, well-balanced articles about something I actually know a little about, then how can I trust their other articles about stuff I know nothing about?

[gsrept]

there in lies the problem no one can publish a nuetral opinion on a problem you are always swayed one way or another. and these so called animal activists or tree huggers have bigger agendas this is just away to back door there way in. and as usual the average joe enjoying his or her hobby gets the shaft.

[Reptileman81]

I only read the first couple post to this and decided to reply. The problem is not the couple of people here and there that let a snake go or gets out. How many have even been down to south FL. I have!! Lived in FL my whole life. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MANY NONE NATIVE ANIMALS ARE LOOSE DOWN THERE. I bet it is over 1000 and around 100 that are breeding and making habitat here. Its not from owners though oh no. The AIR PORT is where most of these animals congregate. Why is this from all of the illegal exporting of animals. Then they get here with them and if they get any idea they might be checked they just let the animals loose to avoid fines and jail. That is where are biggest problem is. It doesnt happen in other states cause most animals cant handle the weather in other states. But things are perfect for almost anything imported to the US in FL to thrive and breed and spread.

Some of you may know about these and some may not. Not sure how far they have gone. But Love Bugs!!! Or as some call them F*&% Bugs. That is all they do and then die. They come in the billions every year and destroy paint on cars and homes. Where did these come from you may ask. Florida University!!! Thats right the Gators. They made them in a lab to eat the mosquitos. Well they dont do that. So did they get in trouble for it no.

My point here is its the big companies and organizations and importers fault for all this. But they will put blame on the little guy and then tell him/her that you can no longer enjoy what you love in life cause someone else messed it up for you. It was not your neighbor either. No it was the big corporations, universities, importers, air ports, Department of Fish and Game them selfs.

So what is the plan of action send anyone and there uncle down there for open season on pythons. So the one or 2 they find out of the 100,000 they estimate is down there they kill. So they are making a big impact there not. Then you look at the amount of wild life and plant life that will be destroyed in the process.

You all should look at the article in playboy. It tell all about the scam. Dont remember what issue it is but it was around the middle of last year though.

[R. Eventide]

Actually, a lot of invasive species--both here and abroad--are not from importers. The critters are stowaways. That's how the brown tree snake got to Guam; they crawl into recesses in planes and leave when the planes land.

Also, I have yet to see a credible source estimate there are 100k Burms in the 'Glades. Given how hard it's been for even hunters to find them, I think this 100k number that the animal rights people throw around was just plucked out of the air.

[Reptileman81]

Also, I have yet to see a credible source estimate there are 100k Burms in the 'Glades. Given how hard it's been for even hunters to find them, I think this 100k number that the animal rights people throw around was just plucked out of the air.


Yes you are right. The number is more like 10K maybe. The reason they are having such a hard time finding them is they are not looking. What I mean is all they are doing is driving up and down roads and paths at night to find them. No one is going into the swamp to look.

Like I said read the article in Playboy from the middle of last year. It is a really good one on how the whole thing is a government scam to get money to fix the everglades. Not to kill snakes.

[gsrept]

i read an article the other day it came from some paper in southern florida, it said in a nut shell that more than 60% of the burms died in the cold spell that they had down there so the climate on whole is good for them but the way the weather is going there is no way that they would be able to survive outside of the keys it is obviosly that the us fish and game has taken there surveys and extremly exagerated them. i think we just keep fighting and hopefully everything will come to light and we can continue to enjoy the animals we love

[R. Eventide]

The fraction is probably a lot higher. There was a recent meeting/discussion in D.C. about the USGS' nine constrictor snakes and the Lacey Act. I don't recall who the group was, but some people were tracking the Burms, and 9 out of 10 snakes with radio tags died in the cold snap. With such small-number statistics, we can't say that 90% of all Burms in the Everglades died, but it does mean that 60% is probably a lower limit, at best.

[gsrept]

yes you are corect that was the article 8 of the 9 that died were females hate to see that happen to any snake but that is what we needed to keep up the fight and have a chance.

[falco]

Some of you may know about these and some may not. Not sure how far they have gone. But Love Bugs!!! Or as some call them F*&% Bugs. That is all they do and then die. They come in the billions every year and destroy paint on cars and homes. Where did these come from you may ask. Florida University!!! Thats right the Gators. They made them in a lab to eat the mosquitos. Well they dont do that. So did they get in trouble for it no.



Urban legend:

http://www.snopes.com/critters/lurkers/lovebugs.asp

[Reptileman81]

Urban legend:

http://www.snopes.com/critters/lurkers/lovebugs.asp

I dout it is a urban legend or a rumor. It is all a cover up. I am a big believer in conspericy theory. These bugs have not been here as long as I can remember. They were not here one day and the next here they are. It could not of been much more the 25 years ago they came around. If even that long.

So I guess that the fact that gators made gatorade is a urban legend too.

[StrictlyExotics]

So I guess that the fact that gators made gatorade is a urban legend too.

I am pretty sure that the University of Florida (Gators) in fact made Gatorade. If those are the gators you are speaking of, you are correct.

[gsrept]

the only thing i know is that there are a lot of people trying to hurt the reptile industry. i do not know how every one here keepr thier herps but all my snakes are in a locked room and no one is allowed in there unless i am present. its not because of the high end snakes but because i do not want any one to be bitten should they try to handle any of the snakes i am the only one that knows there individual personalitys and therefore i insist on being there.as for the bugs and gatorade i do not know but there are definatly things released or escaped from science labs all the time and no one ever hears about it.

[Reptileman81]

the only thing i know is that there are a lot of people trying to hurt the reptile industry. i do not know how every one here keepr thier herps but all my snakes are in a locked room and no one is allowed in there unless i am present. its not because of the high end snakes but because i do not want any one to be bitten should they try to handle any of the snakes i am the only one that knows there individual personalitys and therefore i insist on being there.as for the bugs and gatorade i do not know but there are definatly things released or escaped from science labs all the time and no one ever hears about it.

Hell yeah. All the time. But because our hobby and passion is disgusted by some we are to blame and be punished for it. If it was a cuddly pink kangaroo rabbit cross or something that was destroying the everglades people would be like its cutie we should keep it lol. Even if that creation was killing little kids. Dogs kill or seriously injure kids and adults everyday. But there is no band on all dogs why not???

[Fireside3]

I wouldnt be surprised if Animal Planet is just another front for all of the anti-animal groups in the world. Its propaganda in a nutshell. I know there are tons of Steve Irwin fans out so I hold all statements regarding him but, he was probably the most irresponsible reptile enthusiast out there. If I want to watch animals shows, I will watch National Geographic, and the old 70s shows at that. Those REALLY taught us what animals were like in their natural habitat.

You can call it propaganda, but the problem is a real FACT. If there weren't irresponsible reptile keepers in the hobby, there wouldn't be this problem then would there?

I know the problem exists, and that it is not understated. I know too many people in FL.

As a rescuer and wildlife rehabber, I'd say the answer is that you should do a better job of policing your hobby, and a BIG item on my list with sellers...is INDISCRIMINATE sales!

I have been involved with herps for over 25 years, and I was even a wild collector in a past life before being reformed as a rescuer and wildlife rehabber. It's my opinion that most sellers simply make a sale to whomever has the money, and a lot of times this is long distance, and don't know the buyer at all.

I, on the other hand, don't put an animal in anyone's hands who hasn't filled out and passed an application process where their knowledge is tested.

True most people aren't going to turn a high dollar value animal loose, but not everyone here and on other sites is selling high dollar value animals either. That doesn't represent the majority of herp keepers. Most aren't keeping high value animals.

Second, the problem species aren't often high dollar animals to begin with. I get contacted frequently about taking in big dangerous species that the people can't GIVE away! Whether its a "hot", or a Burmese or Retic, or a big male Iguana with a bad attitude. Those kinds of animals end up getting dumped by irresponsible buyers. This hobby is all too full of those kind.

I see a lot of denial and putting heads in the sand when it comes to these issues in the herp community. I was part of taking in animals from the SPCA Arlington,Tx. / USGE seizure. As an SPCA Placement Partner, my rescue org took in more than 2,100 of the 26,000+ animals confiscated from USGE. During and after this event, I saw a lot of people in the herp community with their fingers in their ears about the situation...claiming that it was all "animal rights" activists fabricating evidence. I saw a complete knee jerk dismissal from many in the herp community, who did not look objectively at evidence at all, simply because PETA or SPCA were involved.

As someone who was involved and took in more than TWO THOUSAND animals...I can tell you the charges against USGE were not made up, and this sort of situation gives the commercial aspect of the herp community a fairly well deserved black eye.

The problem of encroachment by non-native species in the southeast is not all at the feet of irresponsible individual keepers who let them loose. Some of the blame is on importers of wild caught animals too, which pass through ports like Miami. This community is still rife with that kind of trade too, and USGE and Jasen Shaw exemplified that. Shaw is now wanted by the feds for smuggling in case anyone hadn't heard.

[Fireside3]

I do have to agree about Steve Irwin, at least a little bit. I do think he did a ton of good, but it doesn't excuse his poor practices (tailing venomous reptiles, for instance).

Steve Irwin did do a ton of good, and in my opinion it far outweighs any aspect you feel might have been "poor practice".

I regard your opinion as a matter of relativity and experience. I have been tailing Crotalids for about 25 years, and never been fang bitten. Only nicked once by a rear tooth. Steve Irwin also did this all his life, and to my knowledge was never bitten by a hot. It wasn't even a snake that got him. Granted it wasn't responsible of the producers of his show to air such footage to the would be imitating public, but that is part of what got him killed...pressure from his producers to take more chances, and with animals with which he had no comparable experience, as he did with snakes and crocs.

Personally, I would opt against tailing any Elapid, and in my older age I mainly confine my tailing activities these days to impromptu rescue attempts from a road...but the fact remains that with certain venomous snakes and certain situations, I personally feel comfortable "tailing" if need be, and I don't see it as necessarily reckless. It might be reckless for someone of lesser skill and experience.

Mike
Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
National Wildlife Rehabilitators Assoc.

[StrictlyExotics]

Whats the REAL fact Mick? Do you believe evrything your govt tells you? There are many so called facts out there so which ones are true? 10,000 Burmese Pythons in Fl let loose by irresponsible reptile owners? You quote me when I call Animal Planet propaganda simply because it is. It DOES have an agenda and it only covers one side of the story. The defnition of the word propoganda is...

"Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda."

Tell me now how they are telling my side of the story or the many stories of the people just like me.

[MacGaboon]

I miss Wild America.........

[MacGaboon]

I seldom watch animal planet anymore, shows like fatal attraction and the other one about burms and nile monitors seem like propaganda to me. It seems like they are more into creating mass hysteria and not actually trying to fix the problem. I get it from all sides with animal planet, i love reptiles and i love pit bulls........lol

[Fireside3]

Whats the REAL fact Mick? Do you believe evrything your govt tells you? There are many so called facts out there so which ones are true? 10,000 Burmese Pythons in Fl let loose by irresponsible reptile owners? You quote me when I call Animal Planet propaganda simply because it is. It DOES have an agenda and it only covers one side of the story. The defnition of the word propoganda is...

"Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda."

Tell me now how they are telling my side of the story or the many stories of the people just like me.

I don't necessarily see that they are obligated to tell your side of the story, or that "your side" is relevant to the issue they showcased. They are not bound to give you equal time, because as far as I can tell the "fairness doctrine" has not been passed yet.

The fact that many herp keepers are responsible does not negate the truth that far too many are not, and that there is a SERIOUS non-native invasive species problem in FL. and the rest of the southeast, and this has been caused in LARGE part by reptile importers and irresponsible reptile keepers. I recently talked to a friend in Ft Lauderdale, and was shocked that it is worse than even I thought.

I don't have the particulars of this broadcast by animal planet, but I do happen to know the problem is real, and it is a big one. I also happen to know that many people in this community label anything and everything that they don't agree with as "animal rights propaganda".

I am a long time herp keeper, and a keeper of "hots"...but I have the intellectual honesty to admit a problem I see, and one that has become ever more apparent since I became a rescuer and wildlife rehabber where I deal with this crap all the time.

And by the way...don't try the "do you believe everything you gov tells you" line with me...I've been a field trainer and Constitutionalist patriot since 1994 when I left the US Army....long before anyone ever thought of a "Tea Party" movement...and long before most of you ever heard of Ron Paul...so save it.

[Reptileman81]

Ok I really cant think of the big name reptile breeder down south that I know of. But he was interviewed for the playboy mag middle of last year. It states from mostly his words as well as many other well known and respected people in the rep industry. The government is blowing the whole thing out of proportion to get money. Money they plan on using to fund all kinds of stuff. One thing being to fix up the everglades from what we man kind have done to it. Yes there is a infestation of a animal not from this part of the world. But they are trying to say that at the time of the playboy issue that the government estimated over a 100,000 burms loose down there. When the number is less then 10,000. Yes we do have a problem in FL with these animals and yes there are people out there that just let stuff loose. But its not as big as you put it off to be. When the 6 trackers they had down there (before they declared open season on burms in a national protected I might add wet land) were only coming across a snake a month the number is not as big as the government wants you to believe. The one snake that was found by the daycare center was planted by one of the trackers to a get the grants and laws going and to be get him a job to do nothing but drive up and down some dirt back roads hoping to come across a snake. Yes it is a propaganda made up by the government and implemented by out sourcing people like animal plant to make the world worry that they will be eaten my a 100 foot snake. (I know I way over exaggerated the 100 feet lol).

[StrictlyExotics]

lmao WTF does Ron Paul have to do with anything? No one I know denies a serious problem with Fl and the wild population there. But seriously, thank you for gracing us with your reflections on how to solve the problem. Yes, WE (including YOU) are the problem. After all, youve been doing this for umpteen years. If you dont see the REAL issues behind the propaganda then I hope what you fight/fought for is still worth fighting for when we will read about the rights we once had.

Do you part, educate the masses. Keep being in the back pocket of the HSUS and PETA so they keep you on their list of people to get their confiscated animals. I mean after all, you received 2100+ animals out of 26000 right? The only people I see that received anything from that raid are people preaching their cause.

[Payara]

I didn't read all of this thread I just graced through it. So if iI repeat something I apologize. I agree with most of you, it's bullsh!t what AP is doing. They are scaring the general public and creating a bad persona for reptile hobbyists. But I think there needs to be sticker guidelines for exotic animals including snakes/reptiles. Otherwise our hobby is going to turn into the aquarium hobby, with certain animals you can't keep in certain states (which is a bunch of BS too).

I participate in falconry, there is a strict licensing protocol in order to keep and hunt with birds. IMHO our hobby needs something, with levels & certain animals in each level, like that so D-Bags off the street doesn't go and buy a retic because he thinks it's cool.

Just my 2 cents

[Payara]

lol I just joined that FB group against AP.

[Fireside3]

Ok I really cant think of the big name reptile breeder down south that I know of. But he was interviewed for the playboy mag middle of last year. It states from mostly his words as well as many other well known and respected people in the rep industry. The government is blowing the whole thing out of proportion to get money. Money they plan on using to fund all kinds of stuff. One thing being to fix up the everglades from what we man kind have done to it. Yes there is a infestation of a animal not from this part of the world. But they are trying to say that at the time of the playboy issue that the government estimated over a 100,000 burms loose down there. When the number is less then 10,000. Yes we do have a problem in FL with these animals and yes there are people out there that just let stuff loose. But its not as big as you put it off to be. When the 6 trackers they had down there (before they declared open season on burms in a national protected I might add wet land) were only coming across a snake a month the number is not as big as the government wants you to believe. The one snake that was found by the daycare center was planted by one of the trackers to a get the grants and laws going and to be get him a job to do nothing but drive up and down some dirt back roads hoping to come across a snake. Yes it is a propaganda made up by the government and implemented by out sourcing people like animal plant to make the world worry that they will be eaten my a 100 foot snake. (I know I way over exaggerated the 100 feet lol).

Yes professional academics sometimes fudge numbers and sensationalize things in order to get grants. But this problem is real and it is serious. And I know a lot of people in the herp community in FL who say the same thing.

I am a wildlife rehabber, and deal with wildlife on a daily basis. I am a member of NWRA, and so I listen to what I hear from other people who deal with rescuing native wildlife, as I do.

I know people who have gone into the Glades and found several large constrictors in a single outing. That's convincing enough to me, and I don't need to justify numbers to you to prove my point. I don't lay claim to any numbers, and you would be foolish to do so as well. It's well accepted that such creatures are getting quite established in the region, so playing numbers games with you is a little moot at this point.

Essentially what we have here is more denial by people such as yourself. You don't champion that there is "NO" problem. You simply want to debate numbers and state it's not "that bad", and that it's 'propaganda". You are wallowing in the mud trying to occlude the waters and split hairs, and claiming "propaganda" in order to dismiss the problem. That too shows a lack of leadership and commitment in this community, which I am a part of, and which will further show people in that community to be irresponsible and unwilling to take responsibility and self-police. The denial of the problem, no matter how far along you think it is, only serves to further hurt the community as a whole, and the whole community will suffer for that kind of attitude.

[Fireside3]

lmao WTF does Ron Paul have to do with anything? No one I know denies a serious problem with Fl and the wild population there. But seriously, thank you for gracing us with your reflections on how to solve the problem. Yes, WE (including YOU) are the problem. After all, youve been doing this for umpteen years. If you dont see the REAL issues behind the propaganda then I hope what you fight/fought for is still worth fighting for when we will read about the rights we once had.

Do you part, educate the masses. Keep being in the back pocket of the HSUS and PETA so they keep you on their list of people to get their confiscated animals. I mean after all, you received 2100+ animals out of 26000 right? The only people I see that received anything from that raid are people preaching their cause.

You seemed to want to claim some insight about gov propaganda, as if I am not aware of it. That's what that statement had to do with.

Your attitude and libelous allegations toward me further shows the nature of those like you that permeate the reptile community and cry havoc at anything negative being said about the reptile trade, which happens to be true. You also show how you shut down and start name calling when you don't have a more legit point to voice. The only thing more you could do now is stick your fingers in your ears and cry "I'm not listening! I'm not listening!"

You don't know me jack, so don't tell me who's pocket I am in or what my philosophy is. I rescued animals that needed rescuing. I was selected because I am one of the few reptile rescues nearby with experience with many of the animals, and I brought my zoo and wildlife rehabber contacts on board to help with it. I'm not part of the problem, because I never released any non-natives of mine, and never sold non-natives when I was selling. I sold only natives...so better moderate your accusations of what I do and did.

Perhaps nobody you know was involved with the USGE rescue, because they weren't up to par and weren't legit rescuers. Most of these animals were wild caught, and nobody in the pet trade got access to them. That's standard procedure, and if you have a problem with that, it says more about you than it does me.

These animals didn't go to individuals. They went to groups. Herp Societies and zoos were on board, so don't give me that crap about preaching HSUS and PETA talking points. You don't know what you are talking about. SPCA went against PETA. PETA wanted them all euthanized. Every one of them...so don't talk about things you know nothing about. Sounds like you are just pissed like many of your friends, who couldn't get anything on the list because you didn't meet criteria. Too bad.

[StrictlyExotics]

First of all, NOT one person here has called you anything. Secondly, YOU point out that WE are all at fault here, well, everyone but you. Thirdly, just because the general populatin of reptile keepers do not believe in all the "hype" of what our govt tells us, doesnt make us naive.

Like you stated, "You dont know me, Jack". Practice what you preach. You have no clue as to what I believe and how I am. You come here and single out my post citing propaganda when, in the very definition of the word, is a factual statement no matter how you wish to twist it.

No one here has denied any problems in Fl. You even go so far to attack someone who agrees that there, in fact, IS a problem in Fl. What I dont understand is, when are you going to get to the point of your argument.

You act like we DONT think that there are problems in the industry, much more than what is going on in the Glades. Yes, there is irresponsible ownership, just like there is in anything. Do I think we can police our own hobby, absolutely not. Hell, we cant even see eye to eye.

So... Keep on your warpath saying how irresponsible we all are and how all-mighty knowing that you are. When the legislature passes, we will all end up keeping hots since they werent on the list;). Until you familiarize yourself with the people you so call, accuse of wrong-doing, you should also look in the mirror. Youve been in this business 25 yrs, probably a little over 40 yrs old max. Tell me that you know where EVERYONE of your animals are. If you dont, then you have created to this mess more than I have because I can say with almost certainty, I can.

Ive owned reptiles for over 20 yrs now and even had an interest them for 30. I dont sell much and I even offer a buy back program so people like you dont end up with my animals.

I didnt want anyhting to do with the animals in the raid. I would have declined had someone even asked. I would prefer to keep myself out of the back pocket of the HSUS, PETA, as well as the ASPCA. I dont think anyone here in this thread has said that they wanted those animals as well. Dont even know how that was brought up and for what purpose.

Anyhow, continue with your rant. I am sure we all want to hear more about how bad we all are.

[Reptileman81]

Ok here is some links Fireside to the article that I was talking about maybe after you read it you might change your mind a bit. I also think it is crazy for people that dont even live in FL to mouth there opinion about something they dont really know anything about. You make it sound like we cant step out of our doors without a wall of pythons waiting to devour us.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=168343

Ok could only find one link to someone that posted the article but they posted pics of it very huge. Read it maybe you will be enlightened on how it is all a government scam and cover up to get money for other things not related to the issue.

[gsrept]

i have a great idea if you do not like what fauna and its members stand for ie: ethical ownership, and breeding of the animals we love. we are all on here trying to learn more about the animals and hobby. so if you can not add constructive critisim or offer an op with out getting heated a and blaming every one for a problem that started back in the 70'S find another forum to bitch. and people eating tasty animals is just another (peta) is just another one of those propaganda group. as for rehabilitators most are part of the problem instead of a solution.

[R. Eventide]

Steve Irwin did do a ton of good, and in my opinion it far outweighs any aspect you feel might have been "poor practice".

I regard your opinion as a matter of relativity and experience. I have been tailing Crotalids for about 25 years, and never been fang bitten. Only nicked once by a rear tooth. Steve Irwin also did this all his life, and to my knowledge was never bitten by a hot. It wasn't even a snake that got him. Granted it wasn't responsible of the producers of his show to air such footage to the would be imitating public, but that is part of what got him killed...pressure from his producers to take more chances, and with animals with which he had no comparable experience, as he did with snakes and crocs.

If I and a couple of my friends always walked out into traffic without looking and never got hit, does that mean it's a good idea?

Just because you and Mr. Irwin have been doing it forever doesn't mean it's "good practice." Ask any herpetologist--yes, I mean that. (And I don't mean people who call themselves herpetologists; I mean people with degrees in this stuff and with extensive experience with hots.)

Personally, I would opt against tailing any Elapid, and in my older age I mainly confine my tailing activities these days to impromptu rescue attempts from a road...but the fact remains that with certain venomous snakes and certain situations, I personally feel comfortable "tailing" if need be, and I don't see it as necessarily reckless. It might be reckless for someone of lesser skill and experience.

And how, pray tell, does one learn to do this without "skill and experience"? In other words, how does one get experience? By tailing hots! So...tell me who, of those who tail hots, immediately had enough experience doing it so that it was not reckless?

[R. Eventide]

You can call it propaganda, but the problem is a real FACT. If there weren't irresponsible reptile keepers in the hobby, there wouldn't be this problem then would there?

1. Show me the proof of irresponsible reptile owners causing the Burm problems in Florida.

As a rescuer and wildlife rehabber, I'd say the answer is that you should do a better job of policing your hobby, and a BIG item on my list with sellers...is INDISCRIMINATE sales!

Again, show me proof of #1 above. Once you have proven that, then you can start blaming people for indiscriminately selling Burms, etc. I'm not saying this isn't a problem (I have my own views about whether pet stores should be able to sell large constrictors); I'm saying there is no proof it caused this problem.

I have been involved with herps for over 25 years, and I was even a wild collector in a past life before being reformed as a rescuer and wildlife rehabber. It's my opinion that most sellers simply make a sale to whomever has the money, and a lot of times this is long distance, and don't know the buyer at all.

How many sellers have you directly spoken with about this? Anything else is hearsay.

Second, the problem species aren't often high dollar animals to begin with. I get contacted frequently about taking in big dangerous species that the people can't GIVE away! Whether its a "hot", or a Burmese or Retic, or a big male Iguana with a bad attitude. Those kinds of animals end up getting dumped by irresponsible buyers. This hobby is all too full of those kind.

Show me these non-high-dollar hots. I guess you should first quantitatively state your definition of "high-dollar" so we're all on the same page.

The problem isn't with the adult reptiles. It's with people buying them as babies without being informed of how big/nasty/whatever they get. You should not be comparing cost of the adults because that's not where the root of the problem is.

I see a lot of denial and putting heads in the sand when it comes to these issues in the herp community. I was part of taking in animals from the SPCA Arlington,Tx. / USGE seizure. As an SPCA Placement Partner, my rescue org took in more than 2,100 of the 26,000+ animals confiscated from USGE. During and after this event, I saw a lot of people in the herp community with their fingers in their ears about the situation...claiming that it was all "animal rights" activists fabricating evidence. I saw a complete knee jerk dismissal from many in the herp community, who did not look objectively at evidence at all, simply because PETA or SPCA were involved.

I would like to see your exact numbers on the fraction of the herp community who thinks it was animal rights activists fabricating evidence. A few loud people arguing on an Internet messageboard is not "a lot."

The problem of encroachment by non-native species in the southeast is not all at the feet of irresponsible individual keepers who let them loose. Some of the blame is on importers of wild caught animals too, which pass through ports like Miami. This community is still rife with that kind of trade too, and USGE and Jasen Shaw exemplified that. Shaw is now wanted by the feds for smuggling in case anyone hadn't heard.

What are the fractions of invasive species introduced by pet-owners? What are the fractions of invasive species introduced by importers? You need to show evidence, not hand-waving.

Read about the brown tree snake in Guam and how it got there. (Hint: You're gonna have to start blaming the Wright brothers.)

The fact that many herp keepers are responsible does not negate the truth that far too many are not, and that there is a SERIOUS non-native invasive species problem in FL. and the rest of the southeast, and this has been caused in LARGE part by reptile importers and irresponsible reptile keepers. I recently talked to a friend in Ft Lauderdale, and was shocked that it is worse than even I thought.

Again, show me the evidence this is mainly caused by importers and pet-owners.

Also, I'd like you to show me the type of pet where all owners are responsible. Definitely not dogs and cats, that's for sure.

I don't have the particulars of this broadcast by animal planet, but I do happen to know the problem is real, and it is a big one. I also happen to know that many people in this community label anything and everything that they don't agree with as "animal rights propaganda".

Who, in the reptile community, says the Burms in Florida are not a problem? For heaven's sake, USARK is one of the only groups actually trying to do something about the problem instead of trying to pass laws that will do absolutely nothing to help solve the problem.

And by the way...don't try the "do you believe everything you gov tells you" line with me...I've been a field trainer and Constitutionalist patriot since 1994 when I left the US Army....long before anyone ever thought of a "Tea Party" movement...and long before most of you ever heard of Ron Paul...so save it.

Cool! I've been a member of the Republican party since almost that time as well! That must mean I know a lot more than y'all! :rolleyes:

I know people who have gone into the Glades and found several large constrictors in a single outing. That's convincing enough to me, and I don't need to justify numbers to you to prove my point. I don't lay claim to any numbers, and you would be foolish to do so as well. It's well accepted that such creatures are getting quite established in the region, so playing numbers games with you is a little moot at this point.

Wow, you have one outing. That's one data point. That's not even enough data to try to estimate the error!

If you want to convince us that what you're saying is more than just you blowing off at the mouth, then yes, you do need numbers.

Yes, they're established. Does that say anything about the numbers of them actually living in the 'Glades? Absolutely not.

Essentially what we have here is more denial by people such as yourself. You don't champion that there is "NO" problem. You simply want to debate numbers and state it's not "that bad", and that it's 'propaganda". You are wallowing in the mud trying to occlude the waters and split hairs, and claiming "propaganda" in order to dismiss the problem. That too shows a lack of leadership and commitment in this community, which I am a part of, and which will further show people in that community to be irresponsible and unwilling to take responsibility and self-police. The denial of the problem, no matter how far along you think it is, only serves to further hurt the community as a whole, and the whole community will suffer for that kind of attitude.

Uhhh, okay. Let's get on the same page, here since it's obvious you're misreading our intentions.

The propaganda we're referring to in this thread is not that the problem is small or not a big deal. We're talking about the propaganda from Animal Planet (among others) that exists only to rile up the public about Burms in Florida and make them think that the snakes are going to come into their backyards to eat their children. It's about the propaganda that tries to convince people that no one should own any of these creatures. It's about the propaganda that tries to convince people that pet owners are to blame. It's about all the propaganda with one motive: ignoring how to fix the problem in Florida.

It's not about trying to downplay the problem in Florida. It's about trying to downplay the whole snakes are evil, they're everywhere, they will migrate to your area, we need to pass all kinds of stupid laws to make people think we're doing something when we actually won't be doing anything about the actual problem in Florida.

I'm not part of the problem, because I never released any non-natives of mine, and never sold non-natives when I was selling.

Hey, cool, I haven't either, so I'm not a part of the problem! Great! I'll go on my way now, doing absolutely nothing to help the FL problem.... :rolleyes:

Perhaps nobody you know was involved with the USGE rescue, because they weren't up to par and weren't legit rescuers. Most of these animals were wild caught, and nobody in the pet trade got access to them. That's standard procedure, and if you have a problem with that, it says more about you than it does me.

I don't see the point of this...except to add a few steps up to your high horse.

[R. Eventide]

This whole thing reminds me of Global Warming. People spend all of their time arguing about what's causing it, pointing fingers and blaming everyone and their dog for this, that, or the other.

Y'know what? It doesn't matter what caused it. What we need to focus on is trying to fix the problem instead of wasting energy arguing about who's to blame.

The Earth is getting warmer. There are Burmese pythons in Florida. How about we actually do something about it?

[Fireside3]

I also think it is crazy for people that dont even live in FL to mouth there opinion about something they dont really know anything about. You make it sound like we cant step out of our doors without a wall of pythons waiting to devour us.


I think it's crazy that you pull that sort of opinion of my statements. I didn't make it "sound" like anything, except that it is a big problem, which it is. I do happen to know how bad it is. Knowing someone who found 7 large non-native constrictors in a single day in the Glades tells me all I need to know. I don't know about you. I have been there, and I talk on a daily basis to people who live there, including wildlife rehabbers. People who have no motivation to make crap up. Of course if it's not right outside your door waiting to eat you, you aren't concerned with it and it's just propaganda huh?

[Fireside3]

i have a great idea if you do not like what fauna and its members stand for ie: ethical ownership, and breeding of the animals we love. we are all on here trying to learn more about the animals and hobby. so if you can not add constructive critisim or offer an op with out getting heated a and blaming every one for a problem that started back in the 70'S find another forum to bitch. and people eating tasty animals is just another (peta) is just another one of those propaganda group. as for rehabilitators most are part of the problem instead of a solution.

This is constructive criticism for the critical thinking mind, which most of you apparently aren't, so you of course dismiss any dissent which doesn't agree with your view of your hobby. Those getting "heated" seem to be on your side of the opinion, which isn't a surprise.

If you had no problem with "ethical" and responsible ownership, you wouldn't be in disagreement with anything I said.

As for your nonsensical statement about rehabilitators...make a point to back up your uncredentialed drive by claim, or admit your just a troll looking to escalate the situation because you have no point.

[Fireside3]

If I and a couple of my friends always walked out into traffic without looking and never got hit, does that mean it's a good idea?

There is risk crossing a street if you do look, and in herping in general, as well as handling firearms. Some people aren't comfortable around guns, but that has no bearing on my capabilities. You do what you wish.

I think 25 years not being fang tagged says enough that this is more than blind dumb ass luck, like your ridiculous comparison suggests. But I don't expect you to follow that logic.

Just because you and Mr. Irwin have been doing it forever doesn't mean it's "good practice." Ask any herpetologist--yes, I mean that. (And I don't mean people who call themselves herpetologists; I mean people with degrees in this stuff and with extensive experience with hots.)

I am a non-academic herpetologist and proud to separate myself from career academics who spend more time at university reading about it, than in the field. A "herpetologist" is someone who studies reptiles. A degree is not required to do that. Just critical thinking skills, good observational skills, and higher than average intelligence, which I don't see is too common from some of you. I study reptile as a rehabber and conservationist. I have written material actually used by academics and zoos, and am a member of several national organizations.

Your statement tells me enough about your understanding of field studies and the difference between an "academic" and someone who really knows what they are doing. Professional academic herpetologists are frequently out of touch and merely looking to get something published. They spend maybe 1% of their time in the field.

I don't ask an academic herpetologist very much, because when I have talked to them about display behaviors and such in the field, it goes over their head. They have a way with publishing on the obvious. If you had any field experience or experience with academia you would know that.

I have 25 years with hots.

And how, pray tell, does one learn to do this without "skill and experience"? In other words, how does one get experience? By tailing hots! So...tell me who, of those who tail hots, immediately had enough experience doing it so that it was not reckless?

Obvious then you have little no experience in this arena. A good way to start mister...is to be given a rowdy and bitey Colubrid to handle for some time and avoid being bitten by that...then work your way up after you demonstrate some skill. Take a few classes and get back to me.

[Reptileman81]

I think it's crazy that you pull that sort of opinion of my statements. I didn't make it "sound" like anything, except that it is a big problem, which it is. I do happen to know how bad it is. Knowing someone who found 7 large non-native constrictors in a single day in the Glades tells me all I need to know. I don't know about you. I have been there, and I talk on a daily basis to people who live there, including wildlife rehabbers. People who have no motivation to make crap up. Of course if it's not right outside your door waiting to eat you, you aren't concerned with it and it's just propaganda huh?

So didnt your last message say that you know someone that found 6 in one day. Is it 6 or 7??? I think you are talking out of the brown eye man. So you talk to some people on the phone and know some people. Big deal. I know lots of people and talk on the phone all day. Does that mean I know everything that is going on in every city of every state of this nation??? Hell no I dont!!! I think all you know is the propaganda you are reading and watching and that is it.

[Reptileman81]

R. Eventide

I am really starting to like you man. You and me should hang out sometime. Man that is some good ripping. Tar him apart man.

Let me ask you this Fireside3

Did you even read that article that I posted the link to. After all it is a interview with Tom Crutchfield. He is only one of the biggest names around in hots and not. He even lives just mins from all the action in the glades. He even had permission before anyone else to go up in the glades to inspect trap and kill any large constrictors he found. You should really read the article. Then maybe you might say oh sh*& I am a idiot for trusting and believing in my government. What am I thinking you will never do that. You just site there and suck on the teat of the government and just suck up everything they say. Cause they are never wrong. They would never steer you wrong. They most certainly would never lie to you.

Yes there are burms in the glades thriving. Did you know there are Anacondas down there thriving just the same. As well as around 50 other none native species of insects birds mammals and reptiles. Yes most of the problem came from all the importing done down in miami and fort Lauderdale. Yes there are people that let loose something that they just dont know how to deal with anymore all over the world people do this with all sorts of animals. Look out your window man!!! I bet you will see some stray cats or dogs some where. Will we ever get rid of them? NO!!! Just as same as the pythons. Can they go in there and kill kill kill. Sure they can and in the process who knows how many other animals and plant life they kill. In once again as I said a protected wet lands. Now I thought no no no I am pretty sure that no hunting is allowed in a protected anything. But they are. They will never find them all. Next year more will hatch out I guaranty you that.

They are here to stay deal with it. They will not make it out of the glades believe me on this. So what if they are killing off a endangered rodent down there. ITS A RODENT!!!

[Reptileman81]

Wait you know what maybe we can get rid of the stray cat and dog problem. The pythons can do our dirty work for us lol. Just wanted to add some humor to this thread.

[Abby]

Fireside3 - I think you should read this very good article written by Dave and Tracy Barker over at VPI. The python problem in Florida is not due to irresponsible pet owners releasing animals into the wild, but a natural disaster, a hurricane. There is not one recorded case of someone being caught releasing snakes into the wild in Florida. Know why? Because people spent money on the animals and are far too greedy not to try to sell them when they get tired of them.

http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/OnBurmese_Florida_compressed.pdf

[Abby]

Oh, and on the topic of them killing of the endangered rodents - myth. They found a few, maybe just one of those rats in the belly of a snake. The true cause of the death of those rats are feral cat populations, spawned by none other than irresponsible cat owners. I love my cats, but I believe every one of them should be spayed and neutered and kept indoors unless you're a licensed, serious breeder.

[gsrept]

hey mick do not talk about what you do not know first of all i am a lisensed rehabber in the state of nh i am also a master falconer and a reptile lover the only one i see on the defense and getting heated here is you. what do you rehab stray cats and dogs most of my rehab experience deals with raccoons,fox, deer,grey and red squirels as well as nonnative exotics, my raptors are redtails which infact were released last season back into the wild with telemetry to track and be able to study the population in the state. so i do not know what you do in Texass but stop blaming the reptile hobbyists for the problem in florida, i am not saying there are a few bad apples that would release into the wild. but what about your other problems down there like overrun with chickens, stray dogs , cats these are not native species lets ban all the dog and cat breeds in fl. or is that going to far because there a pet. they also make inpacts on the enviroment lets ban oil drilling o yea obama just gave a open season on oil drilling that is more of a enviromental problem. any who good luck with your rehabilitation of dogs and cats.

[gsrept]

one more thing about reptile nation as the usark logo says, United we stand

[Fireside3]

So didnt your last message say that you know someone that found 6 in one day. Is it 6 or 7??? I think you are talking out of the brown eye man. So you talk to some people on the phone and know some people. Big deal. I know lots of people and talk on the phone all day. Does that mean I know everything that is going on in every city of every state of this nation??? Hell no I dont!!! I think all you know is the propaganda you are reading and watching and that is it.

I expect nothing less than more lack of due diligence from you in quoting facts or statements. Show me the post where I said six before? Could be the reason you didn't "quote" me on that was because it doesn't exist...

Who is pulling stuff from their ass again?

Oh, I guess now in your logic one must know what is happening in EVERY state and EVERY city before it's an acknowledged problem ANYWHERE!

Your responses I really am finding humorous and grabasstic.

[StrictlyExotics]

Mick, Mike, whatever... You sure are arrogant arent you. Are you so arrogant that you are "above" reading through the TOS of this site and posting your full name? Just curious so I know who I am bowing too

[Fireside3]

Secondly, YOU point out that WE are all at fault here, well, everyone but you.

Hmmm...show me the post where I named any of you are said you were personally responsible for an invasive species issue? I said irresponsible ownership and importation was.

Your opinion and attitude does serve to discredit the hobby though, because you are serial deniers and playing hypersensitive politics, and it shows that a majority in the hobby can't adopt a responsible opinion on the matter to correct it.

That's why you will only continue to loose ground in the future...More and more laws will be passed because just as you prove here...you refuse to address anything honestly if it impacts your wallet...

Thirdly, just because the general populatin of reptile keepers do not believe in all the "hype" of what our govt tells us, doesnt make us naive.

No...you are naive I can see for many reasons.

You come here and single out my post citing propaganda when, in the very definition of the word, is a factual statement no matter how you wish to twist it.

Just one example of how you are naive.

You assume that an episode on animal planet is a conspiracy which animal planet is complicit in with the government. I thought I had seen some kooks, but that is an extreme reach.

You make no allowance for the fact that if some academic researcher states numbers you don't agree with, that perhaps animal planet decided to use data from the academic herpetologist's work instead of consulting you about it. Maybe they felt the researcher was a better source than you?

Even if the data is not accurate...you assume that

#1 it's intentional and a lie on both the researchers part AND animal planet...
#2 that animal planet is part of a government conspiracy to take away your business and hobby...

My question for you is...are you also a 9-11 "Truther" nut?

You discredit yourself intellectually because you claim "propaganda" about something you don't know to be an intentional lie, first of all.

Secondly, I don't think you have the facts to claim that you know the data to be in error either.

You act like we DONT think that there are problems in the industry...

No, based on your posts, I don't see a lot of acceptance of the problem. Not in this case, nor with the one with USGE. It's all made up conspiracy to you.

Ive owned reptiles for over 20 yrs now and even had an interest them for 30. I dont sell much and I even offer a buy back program so people like you dont end up with my animals.

Yes, because someone like me who would actually put the animals needs and qualifications of the keeper first...and do an adoption rather than sell to who had the money first....that would be bad right?

I didnt want anyhting to do with the animals in the raid. I would have declined had someone even asked.

And I've heard that opinion from several hobbyists who would not have been approved to get the animals in the first place...so if you don't want them, why do you bitch that nobody you know got any?

I would prefer to keep myself out of the back pocket of the HSUS, PETA, as well as the ASPCA.

I'm not in their back pocket and the way I handle my process is much different from theirs. I've voiced my criticisms about how they were handling the herps to the point they threatened to yank me off the project...so bite me.

I dont think anyone here in this thread has said that they wanted those animals as well. Dont even know how that was brought up and for what purpose.

If you couldn't see the relevance to the topic about the problems in the industry/hobby...then buddy, I don't know what to tell you except your hopelesly lost when it comes to honest or lucid discussion.

[Fireside3]

Mick, Mike, whatever... You sure are arrogant arent you. Are you so arrogant that you are "above" reading through the TOS of this site and posting your full name? Just curious so I know who I am bowing too


Of course you would claim I am arrogant for my opinion wouldn't you?

Hmm, lets see. This isn't BOI...and I don't spend most of my free time here as many of you do...so tell me has there been another rule change which requires me to post a full name in this forum?...and if so...I WONDER DID YOU CALL OUT ANYONE ELSE WHO POSTED IN THE PREVIOUS SIX PAGES WHO DIDN'T SO SO EITHER!?

[Fireside3]

Fireside3 - I think you should read this very good article written by Dave and Tracy Barker over at VPI. The python problem in Florida is not due to irresponsible pet owners releasing animals into the wild, but a natural disaster, a hurricane. There is not one recorded case of someone being caught releasing snakes into the wild in Florida. Know why? Because people spent money on the animals and are far too greedy not to try to sell them when they get tired of them.

http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/OnBurmese_Florida_compressed.pdf

Yes, I know...nobody ever releases a Burmese or Iguana when they get tired of it do they?...People who think they will be "greedy" and sell certain things quickly find out they aren't worth much, or that they can't give them away. Your opinion shows a lack of experience in this area, or you would know better.

[StrictlyExotics]

Of course you would claim I am arrogant for my opinion wouldn't you?

Hmm, lets see. This isn't BOI...and I don't spend most of my free time here as many of you do...so tell me has there been another rule change which requires me to post a full name in this forum?...and if so...I WONDER DID YOU CALL OUT ANYONE ELSE WHO POSTED IN THE PREVIOUS SIX PAGES WHO DIDN'T SO SO EITHER!?

Mick, let me go ahead and point out to you since you are so very observant that EVERYONE's full name is in their sidebar, unlike you;)

[Fireside3]

hey mick do not talk about what you do not know first of all i am a lisensed rehabber in the state of nh i am also a master falconer and a reptile lover the only one i see on the defense and getting heated here is you. what do you rehab stray cats and dogs most of my rehab experience deals with raccoons,fox, deer,grey and red squirels as well as nonnative exotics, my raptors are redtails which infact were released last season back into the wild with telemetry to track and be able to study the population in the state. so i do not know what you do in Texass but stop blaming the reptile hobbyists for the problem in florida, i am not saying there are a few bad apples that would release into the wild. but what about your other problems down there like overrun with chickens, stray dogs , cats these are not native species lets ban all the dog and cat breeds in fl. or is that going to far because there a pet. they also make inpacts on the enviroment lets ban oil drilling o yea obama just gave a open season on oil drilling that is more of a enviromental problem. any who good luck with your rehabilitation of dogs and cats.

Great. You say your a rehabber. Wonderful. I'm wonder if you make excuses to not release small mammals so you can train your raptors in your hobby instead? I'm sure I deal with more wildlife diversity down here than you do in NH. Just try to use some proper punctuation in one post will you? You don't even have the respect for yourself to capitalize first person personal pronouns....geez

[WingedWolf]

Animal Planet needs to be boycotted because its programming has gone down the toilet, period. Hopefully, loss of viewers will teach them that they've lost touch with their target audience.
Nat Geo Wild fills the void nicely.

[Abby]

Yes, I know...nobody ever releases a Burmese or Iguana when they get tired of it do they?...People who think they will be "greedy" and sell certain things quickly find out they aren't worth much, or that they can't give them away. Your opinion shows a lack of experience in this area, or you would know better.

Show me the proof that someone has released an animal, will you? So you're telling me that Dave and Tracy Barker don't know what they're talking about? Please. Give it up already. I think where the animals come in should be moved to a different location, i.e. somewhere cold where if something does happen to escape, it won't thrive. But you'd be silly to argue with EXPERTS like Dave and Tracy Barker about where the animals came from. The only people at fault here are the ones who are spreading false information, which would be Animal Planet and the media.

[Reptileman81]

ALRIGHT DOUCHE BAG STOP TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. YOU DON'T BELIEVE I DO EITHER SO. READ THIS DAME ARTICLE THAT I POSTED A LINK TO. IT WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND ABOUT YOUR WONDERFUL GOVERNMENT.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=168343

[Abby]

:iagree:

Off topic, but If anyone needs proof about the government, just watch this...

Orwell Rolls in His Grave (http://freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=87)

[gsrept]

i am all set with this clown. i am not oing to listen to him bump his gums anymore. i have more important things to do than listen to his one sided tree hugger comments.

[The Python Lab]

I could argue with this fireside person.... But what would be the point really? He is quite irrelevant actually and seems to contradict himself (A herp keeper who would like to see rights of ownership taken away? ) so I'll let him hang himself, it's much more amusing to just watch. The only thing that is relevant is the attack on honest, committed, caring reptile enthusiasts and hobbyists. The news and government will always use whatever it takes to achieve their desired end result. the common man/woman and what he/she wants and needs will always be overlooked. I know none of my reptiles are roaming Florida, or any other forest, park, or neighborhood for that matter. I am sure most of you would say the same. I am not going to listen to a village idiot who would question my motives or reasoning for having my snakes as pets. There are children in this country and the entire globe that are starving and neglected, I can say with 100% certainty none of my reptiles are.( Maybe they would be of better service addressing that issue ) I love what I do, it's as simple as that. Have I sold snakes? A few, to people I am in contact with and I know they are well cared for. Have I recouped my investments as far as racks, tubs, heat tape, initial snake purchases, food? Not even close. And if this were a business investment then I would have cause to worry. But this is NO BUSINESS INVESTMENT. From chasing garter snakes and frogs and lizards as a kid to keeping snakes and amphibians now I do it because it brings me joy. I find happiness in doing what I do. If this were purely a money making scheme I would have changed my mind not long after the first month of cleaning rat tubs and cleaning up snake feces so I resent anyone saying we are in it for the money. You want to lay claim the Florida issue being one cause irresponsible snake owners ( there were many snakes displaced by the hurricane, bu I'll humor that point ) it has already been established that there are irresponsible dog, cat, bird, fish, and yes I am sure even reptile owners as well. Should we change the laws to punish all for the crimes of the few? While we are at it, there are parents who mistreat, abuse, and even kill their children. Maybe we should pass a law making it illegal to have children unless you have received a permit granted by the government? In closing I would prefer government stay out of my home, my business and my life unless I am already breaking a current law. Creating more laws only stands to either A) Make the government more money in taxes/fines B) Discourages responsible people from having pets of any kind... as that may be the next banned species. We can sit back and watch the shelters fill up... The animals get sick and die. Now there's an alternative. At the very worst, this is our government attempting to take away yet another one of our rights. At best, it is our government trying to tell me I am not allowed to do what I love. Say what you want, it is wrong any way you look at it.

[Reptileman81]

WOW man that just touched me. I could not of said it better myself. You really need to post this on the sites where they are taking comments about the banned. This was by far the best argument I have seen.

[gsrept]

A+ thats all i need say, thank you

[pitbulllady]

Whether nor not he claims to be in the pocket of one or more of the AR groups, this Fireside chap IS, without a doubt. Anyone who supports the basic tenent of the AR philosophy, the elimination of all animal use/owership by humans, is still AR, whether or not they claim to be. Having read his posts, and still wondering why he came here, I have found his stance to be identical to that of virtually every animal "rescuer" and "rehabber" in the country: Only WE(the rescuers)have the knowledge, know-how, expertise, level of caring, experience, and resources to be able to properly keep and care for (insert animal name of choice) animals, so only WE should be allowed to keep them. All animal breeders, sellers, and buyers are the scum of the earth and the cause of all the problems, while WE, the rescuers, are the only ones trying to solve the problems. I've seen this with dog rescue, cat rescue, horse rescue, wildlife rescue, reptile rescue...the list goes on and on. Go to just about any animal "rescue" site on the internet, and you will find that most are against the breeding and selling of ANY animals, support bans on the private ownership and trade in the animals they deal with, support mandatory spay/neuter for domestic animals, etc. There are many "pit bull" rescue groups that are pushing for mandatory spay/neuter of all "pit bull"-type dogs, so that they will gradually become extinct through zero population growth, for their own good, of course, which is EXACTLY the same stance as PETA's. Go to any site claiming to rescue "wolf-dogs" and you will see them railing against people who breed or own such animals. One of the founding members of the API was Pat Darby, who had a big cat rescue organization. I've gotten into some heated arguements with the Catahoula Leopard Dog rescue groups, because I was a breeder at the time and (*gasp*) sold puppies and participated in hog baying trials with my dogs, while it was their goal to eliminate all breeding of that particular type of dog(along with all the many lookalikes and wannabe's). They did not believe that I was qualified enough to have, let alone breed, Catahoulas, and neither were people like Chester Wager, who'd bred Catahoulas in their native Louisiana swamps for over 60 years. Only they-the rescuers-were knowledgeable enough to keep these dogs. Only they-the rescuers-were intelligent enough to be able to place a dog with people they'd chosen, who met their criteria. Only they-the rescuers-were responsible enough to decide the fate of the animals they kept. NO ONE was responsible, intelligent or experienced enough in their minds to actually propogate such dogs. There is no point in arguing with them, as they are far too self-righteous to ever see it any other way. They and they alone are "the Chosen Ones" and everyone else is just the cause of the problems, whether it's abandoned animals, abused animals, too many animals, sick animals, etc., etc.

Thank God that the people who are responsible for fostering and finding homes for neglected, abused or abandoned CHILDREN don't think this way!

[lovin2act]

Anybody catch the show on AP called SnakesKin? I watched it for a while last night and it seemed pretty decent!

http://blogs.discovery.com/the_mole/2010/03/the-skinny-on-snakeskin.html

[blitz373]

Show me the proof that someone has released an animal, will you? So you're telling me that Dave and Tracy Barker don't know what they're talking about? Please. Give it up already. I think where the animals come in should be moved to a different location, i.e. somewhere cold where if something does happen to escape, it won't thrive. But you'd be silly to argue with EXPERTS like Dave and Tracy Barker about where the animals came from. The only people at fault here are the ones who are spreading false information, which would be Animal Planet and the media.

He has no proof just like Dave and Tracy have no proof that people didn't go and release some. But do you honestly think that people didn't go and release some animals? I've seen people dump their dogs, cats, and kids on the street so I have no problem believing they would dump an Iguana or Burmese down in Florida.

one more thing about reptile nation as the usark logo says, United we stand
Sorry to say but reptile nation is nowhere near being united. Most are too lazy to get up and do anything.

[Abby]

He has no proof just like Dave and Tracy have no proof that people didn't go and release some. But do you honestly think that people didn't go and release some animals? I've seen people dump their dogs, cats, and kids on the street so I have no problem believing they would dump an Iguana or Burmese down in Florida.


Sorry to say but reptile nation is nowhere near being united. Most are too lazy to get up and do anything.

Dogs, cats, and kids are a dime a dozen. No one is going to pay you for your dog, cat or kid (unless the animals are worth something, which is rare). I am not doubting iguana release - you can't give iguanas away. But snakes hold their value well and there is always some idiot who wants to "look cool" and shovel out $100 to their buddy who wants to unload a snake. That's why I doubt snakes are being released. Didn't you read the part where all of the Burms rounded up originate from shipments from ONE year? That's not a coincidence, and that takes genetic testing to determine that.

[gsrept]

(Sorry to say but reptile nation is nowhere near being united. Most are too lazy to get up and do anything.)

sorry but it is negative thinking like that which hurts this hobby instead of whining get out there and do something.

[Ntyvirus]

dont know if the show was mentioned in earlier pages but just watched a few episodes of "swamp brothers" on animal planet and it wasn't terrible. First off, I had no idea that the guys from Glades herp were the guys behind the show, and secondly only real weird thing about the show was the announcer called a scaleless hognose snake a hognose python.

[Ntyvirus]

Bumping this after watching "Man eating super snake on animal planet". Always wondered why a lot of the people they interview are from the US geological survey, what does that org have to do with wildlife?

[mercuryts]

what i dont get about animal planet lately is they are very against reptiles in general. After steve and jeff they only really show reptiles as mean, dirty, and killers. all the shows that i've seen lately on animal planet were about cats or dogs and when they were about snakes it portrayed them as cold blood killers, or the problem for everything. it really disappoints me, because animal planet is suppose to be for animals, not against them.

[Ntyvirus]

Think they get most if not all of their funding from the humane society or the ASPCA now. National geographic has some good shows and even shows old croc hunter episodes.

[Jparker]

"Always wondered why a lot of the people they interview are from the US geological survey, what does that org have to do with wildlife?"

USGS has the Biological Resources Division that is very active in both research and management of wildlife.

My only concern with this whole situation is with such as emphasis on breeding for high end morphs, what happens to the rest of the clutch that aren't these high end morphs? Euthanizing or selling to Joe D Bag for $20 at some reptile show who has no business taking care of any living thing other than the fungus in his shower? I think the industry needs to be better at policing itself before the government does it..

[garweft]

My only concern with this whole situation is with such as emphasis on breeding for high end morphs, what happens to the rest of the clutch that aren't these high end morphs? Euthanizing or selling to Joe D Bag for $20 at some reptile show who has no business taking care of any living thing other than the fungus in his shower? I think the industry needs to be better at policing itself before the government does it..

That might be one of the best first posts ever.

[George J. Ward]

Hello to all! The outspoken here! Please,everyone pull together on this matter. I agree to most everything said about this issue. I understand what a lot of you are saying,but those of you that have bought a couple of designer snakes to breed in the last few years are not herpetologists! No disrespect to you at all though! We out here that are professional field people need your help more than ever now. I have been in contact with congressman Thomas Rooneys' office on this matter now with the african rock pythons down in Miami. Yep you guessed it still no reply or response from that office yet. I have offered my services to get on this matter with any problem(so called problem) animals. I have no problem with them because that's how I earn my living as an exotics trapper here. I have an even better one for you. Ask the state why they are trapping feral cats here,that kill all kinds of native wildlife not just reptiles and amphibians. They trap them then they spay or neuter them then they turn them loose back where they trapped them,HUH? That's what I said. They aren't native to Florida,are they?? So if you have problems with introduced exotics here,why not have a problem with that issue as well!! You can't feed the wildlife here,however they do it all the time here with cats and with Mascovy ducks.Exotics is my job and wellbeing. Please contact the congressman and ask why trappers like myself that have been asking to get on this problem and to keep the market open to all in this arena. Because if this keeps going with all the negativity and bad publicity,some of us will be out of a job or additional income that is more than needed in this country at this time. Help!! Please. Contact congressman Rooney and express your concerns and opinions.Numbers speak loud to a politician at this time of up coming elections,get political on these people that are doing it to all of us reptile lovers,we have rights too,to have the pets we choose(within reason). If they can have cats and dogs we can have snakes. Thanx to all in our field.

[Bill T]

Hello to all! The outspoken here! Please,everyone pull together on this matter. I agree to most everything said about this issue. I understand what a lot of you are saying,but those of you that have bought a couple of designer snakes to breed in the last few years are not herpetologists! No disrespect to you at all though! We out here that are professional field people need your help more than ever now. I have been in contact with congressman Thomas Rooneys' office on this matter now with the african rock pythons down in Miami. Yep you guessed it still no reply or response from that office yet. I have offered my services to get on this matter with any problem(so called problem) animals. I have no problem with them because that's how I earn my living as an exotics trapper here. I have an even better one for you. Ask the state why they are trapping feral cats here,that kill all kinds of native wildlife not just reptiles and amphibians. They trap them then they spay or neuter them then they turn them loose back where they trapped them,HUH? That's what I said. They aren't native to Florida,are they?? So if you have problems with introduced exotics here,why not have a problem with that issue as well!! You can't feed the wildlife here,however they do it all the time here with cats and with Mascovy ducks.Exotics is my job and wellbeing. Please contact the congressman and ask why trappers like myself that have been asking to get on this problem and to keep the market open to all in this arena. Because if this keeps going with all the negativity and bad publicity,some of us will be out of a job or additional income that is more than needed in this country at this time. Help!! Please. Contact congressman Rooney and express your concerns and opinions.Numbers speak loud to a politician at this time of up coming elections,get political on these people that are doing it to all of us reptile lovers,we have rights too,to have the pets we choose(within reason). If they can have cats and dogs we can have snakes. Thanx to all in our field.
You insult people then ask for their help:shootfoot

[Pmsayi]

I understand what a lot of you are saying,but those of you that have bought a couple of designer snakes to breed in the last few years are not herpetologists!

Herpetology is the branch of zoology concerned with the study of amphibians (including frogs, toads, salamanders, newts, and gymnophiona) and reptiles (including snakes, lizards, amphisbaenids, turtles, terrapins, tortoises, crocodilians, and the tuataras).

There are many careers in the field of herpetology. These include, but are not limited to, field research, public and private breeding, zoological staff or curating, museum staff or curating and college teaching.

The study of reptile does not imply any length of time dedicated to the subject but only that one chooses to continually learn about the subject at hand.

We out here that are professional field people need your help more than ever now.

You don't strike me as a professional. You come across more as someone who feels the need to justify a lack of understanding and experience by stating how long you have supposedly have been working in a field you deem as related to reptiles and the study of them. Being a trapper only means you know how to catch them. Not that you understand how to care for them or keep them alive or anything else about them.

No disrespect to you at all though!

You constantly disrespect people here including the Mods from what I have seen. I don't post very often but I do check the site often. I have seen you give bad advice and be extremely confrontational. You refuse to admit when you are wrong and are unapologetic even when confronted with facts proving you are wrong.

My suggestion:
Remove your head from your rectum, try to be civil, learn from others here that have much more experience than you do, and try really being respectful to others for a change.

I apologize in advance to the mods if this post is out of line.

[Bill T]

Herpetology is the branch of zoology concerned with the study of amphibians (including frogs, toads, salamanders, newts, and gymnophiona) and reptiles (including snakes, lizards, amphisbaenids, turtles, terrapins, tortoises, crocodilians, and the tuataras).

There are many careers in the field of herpetology. These include, but are not limited to, field research, public and private breeding, zoological staff or curating, museum staff or curating and college teaching.

The study of reptile does not imply any length of time dedicated to the subject but only that one chooses to continually learn about the subject at hand.



You don't strike me as a professional. You come across more as someone who feels the need to justify a lack of understanding and experience by stating how long you have supposedly have been working in a field you deem as related to reptiles and the study of them. Being a trapper only means you know how to catch them. Not that you understand how to care for them or keep them alive or anything else about them.



You constantly disrespect people here including the Mods from what I have seen. I don't post very often but I do check the site often. I have seen you give bad advice and be extremely confrontational. You refuse to admit when you are wrong and are unapologetic even when confronted with facts proving you are wrong.

My suggestion:
Remove your head from your rectum, try to be civil, learn from others here that have much more experience than you do, and try really being respectful to others for a change.

I apologize in advance to the mods if this post is out of line.
:iagree:

[Argos_mom]

have you seen the new show called Rattlesnake Republic on Animal Planet last night? I didn't see it, it's a reality show on people that collect rattlesnakes for rattlesnake round ups? Rounding up masses of snakes to sell for $4 per pound. They reached a new low

[R. Eventide]

have you seen the new show called Rattlesnake Republic on Animal Planet last night? I didn't see it, it's a reality show on people that collect rattlesnakes for rattlesnake round ups? Rounding up masses of snakes to sell for $4 per pound. They reached a new low

I thought Animal Planet was a pro-animal channel, not one that promotes rounding up, torturing, and killing animals for no other reason than because people don't like them. *shakes head sadly*

[Ntyvirus]

have you seen the new show called Rattlesnake Republic on Animal Planet last night? I didn't see it, it's a reality show on people that collect rattlesnakes for rattlesnake round ups? Rounding up masses of snakes to sell for $4 per pound. They reached a new low

I think i caught a few seconds of that show, only turned to it for a minute but it was 2 guys trying to catch a rattlesnake for who knows how long. One of the guys ended up shooting his arm down a hole to get it, didn't know they were collecting for a rattlesnake round up though.

[Morelia4life]

Wow. Animal Planet is getting pretty pathetic. I remember living in Alabama not to long ago, people would still go around and pour gas down Gopher Tortoise burrows to drive out the Rattlesnakes so they could catch them for the Opp, Alabama rattlesnake rodeo or so they could just kill them. I find it funny how pathetic people can be. Why would you purposely travel, 10, 20, 30 miles out of your way, waste countless hours finding rattlesnakes, risking being tagged and possibly dying just to kill a snake? That speaks a lot about the intelligence level of some people.

I don't know why Animal Planet speaks so highly of cats and dogs but it bashes reptiles? Isn't Animal Planet supposed to treat all animals equal?

[Cryssy]

I know a lot of people, myself included, who are wondering the same thing. I guess they want the ratings, so they are catering to the general public.

[Metachrosis]

The show sucked,it was typical AP FEAR and less then factual.
Im smack in the middle of this freak shows origins.

It all started in Sweetwater TX,where I was a faithful attendy for the first 9 yrs consecutive.

Its a blood sport against animals to entertain the public.

Dog fighting is illegal for ? . . . . . :censored:

have you seen the new show called Rattlesnake Republic on Animal Planet last night? I didn't see it, it's a reality show on people that collect rattlesnakes for rattlesnake round ups? Rounding up masses of snakes to sell for $4 per pound. They reached a new low

[hoppingherps]

I have seen all these new anti-reptile programming, and quite frankly it just goes to show you how a network is just trying to feed into the fears of people who know nothing of how reptiles really are. I know they are just trying to go for the shock factor on alot of the shows which I guess works for them no matter how it makes us feel. The other thing that really rubbed me the wrong way is how freely the spewed out the misinformation on reptiles in a whole. I have a young daughter that loves her reptiles, and there is no way in hades I will ever let her watch any programming they have to offer. I have sent emails to corporate about how the real herp enthusiasts feel on all this crap, but I doubt it will ever be even closely looked at by anybody of importance.

[Praetori]

What makes me sad is that they once showed Steve Irwin's Croc Hunter shows every day...it's degrading for them to go anti-reptile like this after his death. Makes me sick. I saw they were playing a killer snakes show and I refused to even turn to the channel. Do they really play that shallow of programming?I thought this was the ANIMAL Planet, not the Domestic Cat and Dog Planet... But I can't really say anything because I haven't done any work to stop it-if complaining to AP isn't effective, what is the best tactic?

[mike41196]

I see an even bigger problem of their newest shows which show the hunting of alligators for sport as well as another program depicting "hunters" for rattlesnake roundups labeled as saviors for removing the "dangerous" yet indigenous wildlife

[customoverload]

Why doesnt someone contact animal planet about getting there own show? One of my ex's buddies got his own show about motor cross.

[Outcast]

It would be cool to see an actually informational show on there that combats the anti-exotic pet ownership that seems to be rampant right now.

[R. Eventide]

It would be cool to see an actually informational show on there that combats the anti-exotic pet ownership that seems to be rampant right now.

Unfortunately, that'd probably never fly. It's not sensational enough, for one, and it goes against what most of the public believes. Those two, alone, would nix pretty much any chance of getting a show like that.

[Outcast]

Yeah, it probably would be too hard for Animal Planet to put out show's like they had when I was a kid. Actual Documentaries about animals.... I still think they need a show with actual facts, instead of sensationalized BS.

[Beardiefreak26]

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Boycott-on-the-Domestic-Dog-and-Cat-Network-aka-Animal-Planet/234257826608856
her is another boycott against animal planet put your 2 cents in here

[rjjp]

Kinda funny they can trace almost all the retic and burms to a breeding facility run by the government that blew away in a hurricane. Just another lesson in stupidity.

[Beardiefreak26]

i say me all join together and make a new network for reptiles and all of the "disgraced" and "horrible" animals.

[nuggetcujo]

I just don't understand. When I was a kid there were these awesome shows with Steve Irwin and Jeff corwin or whatever and they were actually educational. I don't know what is on animal planet right now, but it is portraying them all as horrible animals. This show is basicallly saying all reptiles are demons and need to be captured. It is way over exaturated. Why can't animal planet just be educational, and show shows that promote animals instead of make them seem like such bad things. I thought the channel was or animal lovers if all sorts, but that is not the case. We need a new channel.