? Is this recessive?

[LeoGeoKing]

Is this Tail Kink gonna be recessive? I own his parent and neither of them have this kink,and none of their other offspring has had a kink.Why have I seen this mostly in Patternless?Do you think he will be able to breed successfully?

[E2MacPets]

I have heard different views on the subject... some people say it's passed on to offspring while others feel it is completely removed after one outcross...

Regardless, on your particular example, it appears the tail is quite stubby to begin with, on top of the kink. I would strongly suggest that this gecko live the life of a spoiled rotten pet (as it appears it has with that fat tail!) and not a breeder.

[LeoGeoKing]

I dont understand why you say he should stay a spoiled pet.I would like to breed him is there no possible way for me too.What do you mean by stubby tail?

[E2MacPets]

What I mean by stubby is that your gecko has a significantly shorter than normal tail.

While geckos with defects like this can physically breed (or attempt to at least), it is not ethical to breed them. It is not a desireable trait, and there is no way of telling if there are internal defects that are linked to it as well.

[LeoGeoKing]

I think he isn't capable of breeding anyway. I was just curious of other peoples thoughts.He is from my first clutch of eggs I ever hatched that were incubated kinda high and I thought that was what caused it.I decided to keep one from my first clutch and I wouldn't sell him since he had a defect anywayz,but I still love him and he makes a great pet.



Do you have any Leos,
WaxWormFan?

[royalgoldreps]

That is an odd deformity that you have there. I have never seen anything like it. It is quite possible that that particular deformity came from the incubation process. The only way to prove it out would be to do breeding and only YOU can make up your mind if you would like to do that or not.

I am not sure exactly what ethics has to do with it. Think about it. If people decided that Kinked Tail was the neatest thing since sliced bread you would see the market flooded with them. Who is to say that Tangerines or even Albinos (and this one is not too far from being possible) don't have genetic things going on that harm the animals that we are not aware of. But since they are desirable traits that aspect is ignored. Nothing personal, Mr E2 (heh, I know who you are!! :D ), but it has more to do with perceptions than anything else. No definitive studies have been done. Market drives this one, not anything else.

Steven Feil
Royal Gold Reptiles

[DiabloBoa]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder. i think ive seen something like this before but im not sure if it was born that way or not and it ended up producing normals,by normals i mean not deformed, the leo was a female hypo

[DiabloBoa]

oh ya but i would still be weary of breeding it in case it was genetic shoot if its recessive then you wouldnt know from the babies but theyd still carry this kink gene if it is a gene

[SableLynx]

I am not sure exactly what ethics has to do with it. Think about it. If people decided that Kinked Tail was the neatest thing since sliced bread you would see the market flooded with them. Who is to say that Tangerines or even Albinos (and this one is not too far from being possible) don't have genetic things going on that harm the animals that we are not aware of. But since they are desirable traits that aspect is ignored. Nothing personal, Mr E2 (heh, I know who you are!! :D ), but it has more to do with perceptions than anything else. No definitive studies have been done. Market drives this one, not anything else.

Steven Feil
Royal Gold Reptiles

Sorry I have to disagree. Back when i was a teenager.( And I won't say exactly when that was :rolleyes: )People thought that Dobermans should have a narrow scull. This was the trait that started winning best of breed in the ring. A short while later there were several incidents of bad bites by Dobies. ( A bad bite refering to an unprovoked bite, or a bite that was out of character for the specific animal.) It took a few years but they dicovered that the narrow skull did not allow for normal expansion of the celebreum(sp?) when the dog became exited. this caused intense pain to the dog and caused them to react by biting.

So whats that got to do with anything? Just an example of how breeding for any particular trait needs to be carefully monitored and attention pain to health or behavioral changes that are outside the norm for the species.

I see most of the breeders here at Fauna doing exactly that and they are careful to outcross as necessary to maintain the health and wellness of the species as a whole.

[SableLynx]

Sorry for the typos. Skull is spelled with a k not a c. and it should read attention paid not attention pain. I can spell ok I just can't type well.

[Gregg M]

That is an odd deformity that you have there. I have never seen anything like it. It is quite possible that that particular deformity came from the incubation process. The only way to prove it out would be to do breeding and only YOU can make up your mind if you would like to do that or not.Steven Feil
Royal Gold Reptiles

How can you say that you have never seen anything like that, and then go on to say you think it has to do with incubation???? Thats alittle rediculous..... Dont you think??? Why try to prove something that has already benn proven???? It is a genetic defect and it should not be bred.....

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Regardless, on your particular example, it appears the tail is quite stubby to begin with, on top of the kink. I would strongly suggest that this gecko live the life of a spoiled rotten pet (as it appears it has with that fat tail!) and not a breeder.I agree 100% with Steven (E2Mac). Even though he looks like a beautiful, healthy patternless gecko, in my personal and professional opinion I would not breed him. I have seen a few geckos with the 'turnip tail', and plenty of patternless with kinked tails, and it is generally believed to be genetic. Why not just let him live as a spoiled rotten, pampered pet? :)

[No1snotsucker]

I'm not trying to cause an up roar but if this is how many of you feel than what are your thoughts and feelings towards Garrick DeMeyer? He has many animals with kinked tails that he sales, and I assume breeds.

[Bringerofdoom]

You all realize this thread was 1.5 years old, before it was just resurrected right???

[Golden Gate Geckos]

You all realize this thread was 1.5 years old, before it was just resurrected right???LOL!!! No, I didn't even look at the date from the original post. Thanks for pointing this out to us! BTW, I HATE it when this happens... OK DiabloBoa, you're in big trouble! :kill:

[DiabloBoa]

i never even noticed the date. hey im still gettin the hang of this i mostly read till recently thanks for the email by the way Marcia

[montezuma]

LMAO.... that was too funny! Wow Vinny.... that was a great way to strike up a nerve! I love it.(I am so sadistic) Someone should trace this guy down (maybe he's still a member) and see what he ended up doing. And see what the outcome was... I would bet if it was bred that crossing it out to another line eliminated the stumpiness and the "curl." Just Curious!

[Sarah H]

Sorry I have to disagree. Back when i was a teenager.( And I won't say exactly when that was :rolleyes: )People thought that Dobermans should have a narrow scull. This was the trait that started winning best of breed in the ring. A short while later there were several incidents of bad bites by Dobies. ( A bad bite refering to an unprovoked bite, or a bite that was out of character for the specific animal.) It took a few years but they dicovered that the narrow skull did not allow for normal expansion of the celebreum(sp?) when the dog became exited. this caused intense pain to the dog and caused them to react by biting.

.

I am curious, is there any proof to this(articles or studies something like that)
I don't know much about dobies, but I was told awile ago that was a myth.

[montezuma]

I went to his website... he has that gecko still in his possession and titled something to the effect of "has kinked tail so it is a non-breeder"

[aliceinwl]

I'm not trying to cause an up roar but if this is how many of you feel than what are your thoughts and feelings towards Garrick DeMeyer? He has many animals with kinked tails that he sales, and I assume breeds.

I like to think that he for the most part does not breed animals exhibiting kinked tails, but he's probably got a number of breeders not showing the trait and throwing kinky babies. The kinky trait seems to be quite ingrained in the patternless morph, and unless you really work to eliminate it (like Marcia :) ) it often pops up. I've purchased a few awesome leos from him, and he seems to be a very upfront guy.

When I first decided I was going to get a PA, almost every breeder I saw selling them had, along with the perfect ones, had ones for sale with eyelid deformities and / or tail deformities. I'd also heard that even if you bred two perfect looking PA's from the same breeder together you usually ended up with at least some deformities. So, I purchased my males and females from different breeders and, I got females that were rainwater het patternless to diversify my bloodlines. I also got two males (from different breeders) so I wouldn't be tempted to breed any of the daughters back to their father. I ended up buying from four different breeders to put my modest group together.

I think that with all the beautiful, "well-formed", leos out there, there really is almost no excuse to breed animals with defects. Even leos with defects that appear to be caused by incubation problems, in my opinion, should not be bred. The fact that they show a defect that isn't seen in every leo exposed to the same conditions shows that they may have some sort of genetic predisposition to exhibit that trait. Why risk having something like that floating around in your colony?

-Alice