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Chris Steele
12-05-2003, 01:22 AM
I need to get in touch with melissa kaplan. Does she have an email adress?

NEWReptiles
12-05-2003, 01:35 AM
Try going through PETA's website.

Darin Chappell
12-05-2003, 10:38 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


:Puke: PETA

Seamus Haley
12-05-2003, 12:16 PM
She does...

... and I have it...

... because I went through a period of time when I thought it might be worthwhile pointing out the really... really stupid errors that are on every page of her website, hoping she would correct them...

... before I figured out what her real game was.

Out of curiosity, what possible reason could you have for wanting to contact Kraplan?

JungleHabitats
12-05-2003, 12:18 PM
why Kaplan ? shes just a broken peice of glass to fester up what ever you need to ask her , personally you would be better off asking you dog the question and asking him to paw once for yes twice for no lol

Seamus Haley
12-05-2003, 12:38 PM
Heh. Paint is fun.

NEWReptiles
12-05-2003, 12:48 PM
personally you would be better off asking you dog the question and asking him to paw once for yes twice for no

I will reply to this after I can dry my eyes and pick myself up off of the floor.

JungleHabitats
12-05-2003, 01:19 PM
Ya know the Chickfila commercials ... that is what comes tomind with her

Eat mor Cheekin!MOOOOOooooooooooo

John Apple
12-06-2003, 07:42 PM
maybe check fish and games website or as said peta
howsabout checking with the dnr

Satyrday Reptiles
12-07-2003, 09:47 AM
Seamus gets 20 bazillion points for creativity!
ROFLOL!!!!

You rock!
:D

Glenn Bartley
12-07-2003, 12:43 PM
If I had her email address I would gladly give it to you. The thing is you are unlikely to find it here because she seems not too well liked by people whom I think are in the know when it comes to practicle reptile & amphibian care.

As for you other guys, Seamus wins first prize, that was absolutely precious. I may have to make a life sized copy and see if I can contact the spirits of - no wait a minute - I would not want to contact the spirits of anyone whom I could reach with that thing. But it really had me howling, I love it.....

All the best,
Glenn B:D

Seamus Haley
12-07-2003, 01:17 PM
All kidding aside here for a moment...

Out of curiosity, I just looked up the thread starter's profile and, from that, his homepage.

He was born in 1988 and his homepage has links to care sheets that he reccomends... The first one for every species (where she's plagarized one) is off Kraplan's website.

She's infecting children with her PETAspeak! I forsee a group of iguana owning youngsters, all with "Iguanas For Dummies" tattoos shouting slogans and marching to show their anti-pet solidarity... The Kraplan Youth Brigade.

All joking aside for the moment though... And to the original poster... Melissa Kaplan is easily among the biggest dangers to our hobby (and in many cases our businesses), she supports legislation which makes it more difficult or even impossible for individuals to own animals, believes that it's cruel to keep reptiles in captivity and has subtly inserted herself into this new mainstream front of herpetoculture... The average Petco/Petsmart employee and customer thinks that she, and her ideas, are an accurate representation of a hardcore herper, because she is the first thing they are introduced to when looking for information and her information seems, upon very... very... casual reflection, to be correct... I mean, it has words over six letters in it sometimes, so it has to be true, right?

Our hobby is undergoing a massive change, from being something participated in only by a fringe group of naturalists and academics, to something that is seen frequently in the family home... We need to be vigilant about who influences all these new herp owners and ensure that the information they get is doing what it's supposed to be... educating them about the best care for their animals. Kaplan, and a few others in her camp, don't want animals owned at all... a moral position that they wish to shove down the throats and legal systems of everyone else, they facilitate their goals by spreading subtle misinformation. By doing so, they build a larger and larger group of people who will attempt to keep a reptile and fail, based on their advice... Furthering the idea that it's impossible to keep a herp in captivity.

When she says that an iguana can be trained... and some poor slob who bought her book tries it and gets mangled by the one they purchased... That slob now thinks reptiles are bad pets, impossible pets, dangerous pets... and this WILL be reflected in legislative attempts to ban our animals.

Incidentally... anyone else notice that her book's biggest sales seem to be through the big two chain stores... While she makes statements and supports groups and movements that directly oppose their businesses? I know that many of us would rather have them stick to the dog and cat food, but she's gone and tried to make it impossible for the companies to sell live animals... any live animals. Yet they indirectly support her financially and further her attitudes and goals by promulgating her book... Wander into one of the big two chain stores sometime... ask for a book about iguanas... that nasty yellow and green paperback will be in your hand shortly.

To the original poster... I have no idea why you want to contact Kaplan, but in looking at your webpage, I suspect it's not for the same reasons I, and others here, used to... and as much as it sounds like I'm being petty... I won't help or encourage her in any fashion, which includes getting you in contact with her. Check someplace else.

Seamus Haley
12-07-2003, 01:23 PM
Er... Ignore the first "All kidding aside"

I had a late night.

Glenn Bartley
12-07-2003, 02:41 PM
Essentially, I agree with Seamus on this one. Melissa Kaplan, in my opinion, is nothing more or less than an undercover ultra extreme animal rights activist who wants ultimately to ban the keeping of reptiles and amphibians. One might wonder, well if she is so against keeping pet herps, then why does she write so many herp care articles, and why does she present articles of others on her web site! Her articles on reptile & amphibian care are fraught with innuendo that reflects her desire to ban the keeping of reptiles & amphibians, or top at least make the keeping of these animals seem undesirable to many. See this linked article that she wrote, it is a good example of what I am writing about: URL=http://www.anapsid.org/parent.html]So You Think You Want A Reptile?[/URL] and here is another, this one is one that is shown on her site but apparently written by someone else, it is a great one to show lots of discouragement that, in my opinion, is camouflaged as good advice College Student Speaks Out About Iguana Ownership (http://www.anapsid.org/iguana/collegeig.html). Read both of these. They are in my opinion, full of malarkey! Which do you think after reading these. Are these articles actually trying to foster responsible herp care, or are they trying to discourage herp care with such concepts as saying that you SACRIFICE when you own an iguana, or that you will need at least $200 on hand at all times for vet emergencies. Please note the author's iguana required a vet because of improper care given to it - it had metabolic bone disease - heck, would it not be better to actually promote good iguana care therefor avoiding a trip to the vet because of a totally avoidable illness like metabolic bone disease. If you let your iguana get into that condition in the first place, then you were irresponsible as I see it! And what about this line from Kaplan’s article "So You Think You Want A Reptile: Keeping a reptile properly can provide a wonderful learning experience for the family. But so, too, can choosing not to keep one. Do you get that 'so too part'; the whole article is chock full of the attitude that this one line portrays - you are better off without a reptile for a pet.

Melissa Kaplan, in my assessment, is no friend of the herp hobby or of herp keepers or even of the herps themselves. She is, rather, in my opinion, a friend of, what I consider to be, the control freaks at PETA, and the Humane Society Of the United States. I don't believe they care about the animals, I think all they want to do is to be in control and they use animals as their way to take a power trip. Now if you doubt that Ms. Kaplan wants to be in control, take a look at this article that she wrote: Responsibility & Accountability An Alternative To Banning (http://www.anapsid.org/ban2.html). Wow that sounds great doesn't it! Until you realize that what she wants would raise the price of herps so high as to make them virtually unattainable for the regular working person. Can you imagine the bureaucratic nightmare that would be caused by the legislation necessary to bring all of these rules about. And what about the responsibilities of the buyer. Isn't the person who buys a pet responsible for its care. If you go to a store and buy an iguana before knowing what you need to know, and just depending upon the word of a salesman, well then you have been a dope - pure and simple. You need to educate yourself before going out and buying, and the best way to do that is to pick up a book and read it, and talk to other herpers. The best method is not to make stores and other retailers follow regulations that are virtually unenforceable. Sure I'd like to see retailers take better care of animals too, and give better info on them, but to hire two vets per store. To make each employee an expert. To have detailed care sheets for free. Don't you think things like this will get figured into the price somehow! Sure it will, and the bottom line price will be the destruction of the herp industry, and of the herp hobby as I see it.

What I do not understand is why Ms. Kaplan does not promote the responsible care of reptiles & amphibianas asd a good thing, as being fairly easy (for the great majority of species that are in the pet trade), as being a wonderful hobby, as being a good thing to get your children involved with, and so forth instead of also adding that negative and discouraging twist she so often seems, at least seems to me, to throw into her articles. The only thing I can come up with, in my opinion, is that she wants to be in control of things, and that she has to be the grand poobah so to speak above everyone else, she has to be the one who gives off an air of knowing what is best for all of us. People like that scare me very much.....

Just in case it was not extremely clear to you already, the above is my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

Best regards,
Glenn B;)

John Apple
12-08-2003, 06:15 PM
Just in case it was not extremely clear to you already, the above is my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.
spoken By Glenn B

Glenn your opinion is shared by many a herper senior and junior,
I think your words and Seamus well represent what Kaplan and her 'flock' of followers are trying to do...
NOW there is a cult forming if I ever saw one, every one of her followers have to eat an iguana turd , and those that get salmonella are out, those that survive are members of the kraplan kult

eric adrignola
12-10-2003, 12:06 PM
It's sad. I've seen several people come into the hobby, learn stuff the hard way, try to educate others, and eventually become frustrated with the seemingly "ignorant" public.

In their frustration(or in some cases, feelings of their own superiority), they take it out on the REST of the hobby.

Melissa Kaplan knew her stuff. she tried to get info out there. the public STILL had the nerve to not listen, and thousands of iguanas turn to MBD-jelley despite her efforts. so now she wants to keep them out of the hands of the ignorant masses, for they (from her high-up, holier than thou position)lack the ability to properly care for reptiles.

I have seen the same thing with Chameleons, Namely Ardi Abate, the editor of the CIN. I used to talk with her all the time whenI got started. She was full of info. The last issues of the Chameleon information network were mostly geared towards the elimination of the hobby. More than half the pages were full of old data on mortality rates of imports(back when there were no restriction, and even less knowledge on husbandry). there was even a section where little schoolkids drew pictures of chameleons, and wrote little messages saying"Karmaleons need to stay in the rain forrest, because they die in kages!", or "Please keep the chamelions in madagazcar. they belong in the jungle, not in a cage."

Disgusting. Filling the porus minds of inncoent, eaisly influenced children with PC, tree hugging(and lets not forget communist, Peta and the HSA are communist-goal-seeking organizations)agendas...Ok, the communist part MIGHT be a bit of a stretch, but over-regulation iIS kinda communist...

In Ardi's situation, she didn't start out like that. It only happened after years of hearing from the people that were haveing a hard time with chameleons. The people that were sucessful were obviously NOT calling her. So, she got inundated with horrible stories, year after year, and now, she's trying to push chameleons as "immoral" to keep.

I HATE it when people want to tell me what I can or cannot do when they have no reason to do so, except that they think THEY are right. Example: vegetarians. I know PLENTY of vegetarians. Most are just that, they don't eat meat for personal reasons. period. OTHERs will preach, saying I am wrong, meat is cruel, and people should "Rise above" eating meat, and "move up" to a higher moral level--if that aint elitest I don't know what is. The same way PETA thinks they are "better" because of their beliefs.

It's funny, that I see so many gun owners in the reptile buisness. I thinkt he common link is that Reptiles and guns are two things we LIKE to keep, but others are always trying to take them away, because THEY don't want us to have them.

The fact that people like MK and Ardi get recognition, and have credibility(in the public eye), is dangerous. For example, if the HEAD EDITOR of the Chameleon Information Network(the #1 organization for information regarding the KEEPING of chameleons IN THE WORLD) is saying that keeping chameleons is WRONG, people that DO NOT KNOW anything on the subject will assume that that is the general consensus of the members of the CIN, and chameleon keepers in general.

It's too bad that the reptile industry does not have a political group to keep people from infringing on OWR rights. The NAtional Reptile Association, a political group dedicated to preserve the rights of people to keep whatever the heck kind of abhorrent, nasty, cold-blooded , venomous creatures they want, as long as it aint hurting anyone else." ----the N.R.A. good ring to it.

Sorry for the rant, I'm bored at work, and I had a lot of coffee.

Eric A

meretseger
12-11-2003, 12:50 AM
PETA is pretty frickin' socialist. Reading enough of their stuff you almost get the idea that animal welfare isn't really part of their agenda at all- just a front to get their foot in the door.

Erin B.

WebSlave
12-11-2003, 02:18 AM
PETA and the rest of that ilk already have their foot in the door.

It all starts with a permit system. Sounds innocent enough at first, so sure, why not? Helps to clean up the place since only the bad guys will not be permitted. Yeah right....

A permit is asking permission to do something. Take a look at ANY permit application that was first required and then take a look at it several years later. Each year more and more requirements will be added in to being "permitted" to do what you want. And if you violate any of them, well then you are no longer permitted. Permission denied. So sorry, but heck, you agreed to this, right?

Permits are attractive to the people already in the business. Why? Because it makes the hoops harder to jump through for the people who want to get where they already are. So they are supported because of self interest. But eventually, sooner or later, even they will be getting their feet dampened as the tide rises higher every year of the demands needed to be met in order to get that once "just a formality" permit. It's for your own protection and better for all, remember?

Your rights will not be taken away at gun point. You will give them away bit by bit. And unfortunately, it is like trying to protect your sand castle on the beach from the rising tide.

Seamus Haley
12-11-2003, 02:26 AM
I disagree to a certain extent with the statement that Melissa Kaplan knew her stuff and tried to get the information out there...

I think she probably knows full well what good iguana information is.

I also think she knowingly states the exact opposite and always has as far as her public statements and "educational" attempts are concerned. Her sociopolitical agenda comes first, reptile education isn't even on the list of her priorities despite statements to the contrary.

Meaning... you need to know accurate information in order to give BAD information of the type needed to sway unsuspecting minds.

snakegetters
12-19-2003, 11:51 PM
Until you have volunteered too much of your own time and money trying unsuccessfully to save too many reptiles that have been abused and neglected by too many idiots, don't be so quick to defend the pet trade as it exists today.

I am heartily sick of seeing the neglect and abuse of reptiles that is standard in the pet and wildlife trade. In my opinion there does need to be more regulation to prevent the incredible amount of suffering that happens because uneducated and uncaring people (including kids) buy pets with special dietary and environmental and veterinary needs. Often they don't have a clue as to what those needs are, causing these animals to die slowly and unpleasantly for lack of adequate care.

If you are not prepared to care for an animal, you should not be allowed to keep it. I hear some people crying that this idea violates their "rights". Perhaps it does, if you think that your rights include being able to abuse and neglect your pets. Almost everyone would agree that it is illegal (not to mention sick and cruel) to keep a puppy cooped up in a tiny, freezing cold cage and feed it only lettuce, causing the animal suffering, disease and deformity. But no one seems to care that this is actually the fate of a large number of the baby iguanas sold by pet stores.

I do not agree with PETA's extremist tactics or politics, but I have seen more than my share of cruelty in the pet and wildlife trade and it makes me very unhappy with the situation as it stands today. I do hope that some improvements can be made that will stop the worst of the abuse and also allow responsible people who do care properly for their animals to continue keeping and breeding them.

As for Melissa Kaplan's husbandry information, I regularly attend lectures and classes given both live and online by some of the world's most respected writers and researchers in the field of reptile medicine. It's expensive but worth it - I learn a lot, and I get to hear what the real experts in the field are doing. Ms. Kaplan's web site is referred to repeatedly by these authorities as a good site for veterinarians to consult and to send their clients to.

In my recent memory, Doug Mader and the Hernandez-Divers have cited Melissa Kaplan as a good and informative resource for veterinarians in the course of their lectures. So have a number of other prominent lecturers, but I don't have written notes in those cases so I don't want to quote them.

Clearly the information on her site is considered good by the people who are acknowledged as among the world's foremost authorities in reptile medicine. Anything that general folks-at-large have to say about it on the Net does not impress me by comparison, not if they are contradicting people like Doug Mader and Steve Divers.

Darin Chappell
12-20-2003, 08:36 AM
Sounds like you've made up your mind. But all of the big name support in the world does not counteract that Ms. Kaplan's site does contain inaccurate and harmful information about cornsnakes!

I do not know much about a lot of herps, but I do know corns. So, if I see someone giving out obviously bad information on one of the most widely understood species in the world, I have to question what she knows on the other issues about which I am less knowledgeable.

The woman is a menace. I am sorry you cannot/will not see that.

Glenn Bartley
12-20-2003, 09:31 AM
As for Melissa Kaplan's husbandry information, I regularly attend lectures and classes given both live and online by some of the world's most respected writers and researchers in the field of reptile medicine. It's expensive but worth it - I learn a lot, and I get to hear what the real experts in the field are doing. Ms. Kaplan's web site is referred to repeatedly by these authorities as a good site for veterinarians to consult and to send their clients to. This is one of my pet peeves with Ms. Kaplan and the vets who support her. They, in my opinion, pander to one another. Most vet that I have met, and this includes quite a few, and also most that I have communicated with online, and most whose words I have read online, do not have a clue as to PROPER herp care. Veterinarians are not trained primarily about animal husbandry, they are schooled in medicine. Vets are by far not the best qualified to give advice on herp care no matter how many vet schools they have attended and no matter how much they claim to know (generally speaking). This is where Melissa Kaplan, again in my opinion, manipulates people. She ropes them in, under her wing so to speak, as she pretends to be the almighty in herp knowledge. They fall for it too because she is so pervasive. Sure she gets some stuff right, but most of it, in my opinion, is bunk or is copied from other sources (not implying any copyright infringement at all but I once saw where she wrote that not much has been written on a particular herp yet, so she cannot give out much info on that same herp).

Now you come here, and in essence admit to being the same as MK - a crusader for more restrictions on people. I am for better knowledge for people, and I freely share my herp knowledge in on-line forums, at pet expos, at exhibitions at schools from grammar school to Grad Schools, in exhibitions at state parks, at scout meetings, and through my local herp society and my web page. I do not try or even propose ever regulating anyone’s privilege to keep pets. Did you see anyone here say that it is a right to keep a pet other than you? Yet you say we did! Where is that? Even if someone said it, you seem to imply it is the majority here that feels such is a right. Actually, it may be a right of mankind in general to keep other creatures. I don't know if it is or not, but we are in a position to do so. Is it your right, I wonder, to impose rules or regulations onto others? Even if it is your right, why not first try to educate. Education is the harder thing than is regulation. Education is tough to do, and it also makes people as smart as you. Are you afraid of that. Would you rather keep people in the dark and reign over them by way of regulation. That is what you are heading for as does, in my opinion, PETA, The Humane Society of the United States, ALF, ELF, and Melissa Kaplan and others like her. My advice to people like that is: Get off your high horse of being better and knowing better than others and start to educate others. Of course, you don't have to take my advice and I would never suggest regulation to make you do so!

Wilomn
12-20-2003, 01:17 PM
Tanith, up until your last post I thought you had a pretty good handle on things. One question before I go on though, do I need to be a member of your "club" to get you to listen or does the 30 years I've been keeping reptiles count for anything? I, and many others here on fauna, have no formal training or degrees in any herp related fields. But I would bet that almost anything you could ask could be accurately answered by members here from knowledge that they have gained by ACTUALLY working with the animals in question.

I used to own a reptile specialty store. When iguanas started to flood the market we stopped carrying them other than as special orders. Same for water dragons and almost all other imports. I myself have bred about 20 different species of reptiles and kept too many to count.

Ms. kraplan is not good for those of us who care about our animals. She has an agenda that is not in line with the keeping and breeding and enjoyment of these animals that we like/love so much.

I have had more than one person I know go to a vet only to be told the wrong information about keeping as well as medicating reptiles. There are some very good reptile vets out there and there are a lot of doctors of veterinary medicine that don't really know a house gecko from a leopard gecko much less a corn snake from a boa constrictor.

I guess my point is I, and I'm speaking only for myself but suspect a large number of readers will agree, there are a lot of experts out there, and I mean that in a positive way, that have gained the knowledge they have by YEARS of trial and error that has lead to successfully an incredible amount of reptiles. Some of these people know far more about the herps they keep than most of the vets out there. kraplan is not one of these people.

If you can't look outside your exclusive little club then you are missing a wealth of information and some pretty good people out there.

Just because a licensed DVM agrees with a twit like kraplan does not make her an authority.

Wes Pollock

cka
12-20-2003, 01:36 PM
"As for Melissa Kaplan's husbandry information, I regularly attend lectures and classes given both live and online by some of the world's most respected writers and researchers in the field of reptile medicine. It's expensive but worth
it"

Instead of spending your hard earned $$$ thats going to end up in the coffers of someone who really does think you are too dumb, ignorant or naive to care for any reptile hang out here for a bit and ask your questions...Some of the worlds most respected breeders and proponents of the herp world will answer them...for free...

snakegetters
12-20-2003, 06:22 PM
Yep, now I think I have a pretty good handle on why people hate Melissa Kaplan. There seems to be an automatic knee-jerk reaction to the suggestion that there are problems in the pet and wildlife trade that need fixing. The problems do exist, but the solution is not to dump the baby out with the bathwater and ban everything. Nor is the solution to turn a blind eye to the problems and yell at anybody who points them out.

There are a lot of very unpleasant things happening in the pet and wildlife trade, because along with good and responsible keepers, there are some very dubious individuals who care more about making a buck then about keeping their herps healthy. Selling sick herps is not a good thing, nor is keeping them in inadequate conditions that result in their getting sick.

I don't think that my stance is particularly extreme. I think that anyone who is capable of caring for an animal properly should be allowed to keep or sell it. I also think that someone who is *not* capable of caring for an animal properly, someone who will let that animal get sick and die, should not be allowed to keep or sell it. That seems simple and reasonable to me, though I am aware that actually putting this idea into practice is not simple and may cause real problems for people who keep reptiles responsibly.

There are pet stores in my area where the reptiles are sickly and emaciated, huddled under indadequate lights on inappropriate substrate that is covered in feces. I would indeed like to see them shut down. There are other pet stores in my area that are clean and that care for their animals very well. I support them with my business and hope that they stay around my community for a long time. It's not a black and white issue, and it shouldn't be trivialized that way.

If you really don't know who Doug Mader and Steve Divers are, if you think they can be put in the same class as the vets who don't know anything about reptiles, then you should do some reading in the field of reptile medicine. These people know their stuff, and I am not exaggerating when I say that they are widely acknowledged to be among the top world experts on reptile medicine. What they don't know about reptile physiology isn't known. I trust the opinions of these experts over anything I hear from unknown people on the Internet.

As for cka's suggestion that I to stop going to vet school accredited classes and lectures and ask questions of breeders instead, I don't think that would work out too well. I am not belittling the knowledge and experience that exists in the private sector, but breeders can't teach me to perform emergency surgery on a badly hurt snake that will save its life. Vet school can.

If you will point out specifically the inaccurate information on corn snakes, I will research the question and see whether or not it is true that Kaplan is giving out bad information. But if breeders are saying one thing and reptile medicine experts are saying another, I know whom I will believe.

Breeders really know their stuff; they have to in order to be successful in the long term. The average long-time reptile breeder knows a lot more about how to keep their charges healthy than the average veterinarian. But reptile medicine experts are on the cutting edge of current research into the specialized anatomy, physiology and veterinary needs of these species, which all have practical implications in husbandry. Which is certainly a subject that these particular docs are paying close attention to, because it is the single most important factor in a patient's health and recovery. If they don't know their stuff, including husbandry, they can't be successful in the long term either. These people do know what they are doing, and if they say that a source is good then I think it's well worth taking them seriously.

Wilomn
12-20-2003, 09:43 PM
Well tanith it is good to see that along with your medical knowledge of reptiles you've gotten one on the human reaction as well, and such a valid and useful one as well, how special.

I don't think you realize that Darin and Seamus are not your typical herpers. Heck even I am not typical. Sometimes we actaully do know of what we speak. And without any formal education too. I am making an assumption on that one as I have talked to neither Darin nor Seamus about it.

Nobody has said anything about dumping the baby out with the bath water buy how long do you let that baby sit in poo before you figure that something about the method needs to be changed? As far as I can see there has been no blind eye turned to a problem, in fact it's just the opposite in that Ms. kraplan seems to be a problem and that has been pointed out to you in what seems to be direct opposition to those from whom you mainline your knowledge. You may want to ponder the notion that even a well trained and well meaning DVM can be wrong. In fact I bet it's actually happened a time or two before.

Have you ever done anything about those pet shops in your area that have those sick animals being kept in poor conditions? I don't believe that anyone has said anything negative about Mader or Divers. They may not be so all knowing as you think but you must look up from whatever internet class or book you are reading to see that. There are a great many sourses of information. I am somewhat doubtful that they actually know all there is to know however. It is fine to trust their opinions but to trust them to the exclusion of all others seem a bit extreme to me.

If you are touting kraplan as an expert known to be so by your only sourses don't you think it would behoove your own clients and patients to do a little research yourself to see just what kind of nonesense she puts out there as gospel? Don't you have any care for the responsibility that goes with your postion as a giver of factual information?

I must disagree with you on the last statement you made about vets who do not keep reptiles in large numbers for many years having the same experiance and knowledge as those of us who have and do. They may know the theory well but, the practical application is sometimes different than theory. I'm not saying they don't know a great deal as I know they do. What I am saying is that they don't know everything and since they do not keep these animals in large numbers they may, just may, not be up on all the latest knowledge known by your average large breeder.

Ms. kraplan is neither a student of veterinary medicine nor a keeper of reptiles. She espouses the platform that they do not make good pets and should not be kept.

I think you should do a little research of your own before you go touting the recommendations of others.

Wes Pollock

snakegetters
12-21-2003, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by wilomn Have you ever done anything about those pet shops in your area that have those sick animals being kept in poor conditions?

Yes, and spent quite a lot of my own time and money doing so over many years. How about you?


If you are touting kraplan as an expert known to be so by your only sourses don't you think it would behoove your own clients and patients to do a little research yourself to see just what kind of nonesense she puts out there as gospel? Don't you have any care for the responsibility that goes with your postion as a giver of factual information?

Lots. That is why I suggest that the advice of acknowledged world experts in reptile medicine is worth listening to. I consider their words to be more trustworthy that rude, unprofessional flaming rants from semi-literate people on the Internet.

If you disagree with someone's viewpoint, you may say so in a calm and professional manner and in doing so convince others that it is worth listening to what you have to say. If you rant and rave and behave in an unprofessional manner, eg calling names and presenting your viewpoint poorly, you will not be taken seriously. If you disagree with something that Ms. Kaplan is saying, please have the courtesy to state your disagreement and the facts to support your view.


I must disagree with you on the last statement you made about vets who do not keep reptiles in large numbers for many years having the same experiance and knowledge as those of us who have and do. They may know the theory well but, the practical application is sometimes different than theory.

Ahh, but I was not talking about vets who do not keep reptiles in large numbers. The people I mentioned specifically are in fact responsible for the husbandry of large groups of reptiles, and have kept them for many years quite successfully. Why did you automatically assume they were not keepers?

I am not belittling the knowledge that does exist in the private sector, though you seem to be ignoring that fact. But there is no reason that a vet who has dedicated his professional career to reptile research cannot also be an experienced keeper. Do you think that a vet who has been responsible for the husbandry of large numbers of reptiles for many years will know *less* than a non vet who is doing the same thing?


Ms. kraplan is neither a student of veterinary medicine nor a keeper of reptiles. She espouses the platform that they do not make good pets and should not be kept.

Not last I checked. That would be an inaccurate summary of her actual position, as far as I can tell from reading her material.


I think you should do a little research of your own before you go touting the recommendations of others.

I have full confidence in the knowledge and experience of the experts in reptile medicine whom I have cited. I have not read every page on Ms. Kaplan's site, but what I have read so far has not conflicted with anything I have learned in the veterinary classes I have attended.

Wilomn
12-21-2003, 12:01 PM
Hmmmmmm, it seems that we each think the other misses the points we are trying to make Tanith.

At this point I'll let it go at that. I've neither flamed nor ranted, just been incredulous that you have the viewpoint that you do. You are entitled to your opinion.

I have and will continue to try to educate petshops about the animals they keep. I too, am entitled to my opinions.

I will agree to disagree with you about kraplan and her stance.

I suspect that we both would have the same goals were we to sit down and discuss them. Your road is simply not the one I'm travelling on.

In all honesty I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

Wes Pollock

Ken Harbart
12-21-2003, 01:20 PM
I suspect that we both would have the same goals were we to sit down and discuss them. Your road is simply not the one I'm travelling on.
Throughout the years, I've found that many roads ultimately lead to the same destination.

Seamus Haley
12-21-2003, 02:02 PM
Whulp...

I'm not going to try and take up a position that Mader is somehow not certain of what he's talking about... BUT, I have also heard the gentleman make comments which are directly opposed to many which Kraplan has made... I doubt the strength of any support which may have been accidently implied at any point. The only really credible person who actively supports Kraplan in any manner is Adam Briton (spelling? Croc guy) and in doing a bit of investigation, it turns out they work for the same publishing group.

Now...

http://www.anapsid.org/ban.html

Which, because of the modifiers to her statements seems okay at first, but she expresses many times on other portions of her site that ALL reptiles and amphibians are "impossible to keep healthy in captivity"

This, first and foremost is why she is a danger to the hobby, not somebody to be supported in any manner and someone who should be outed to the general public as what she is (mainly a card carrying member of PETA).

On to some specifics... She has stated in the past that any corrections to her site will be made if they are pointed out. Many of the following have been pointed out hundreds of times in the last four or five years, at least a dozen each by myself alone.

Ball pythons are semiarboreal.
Continually reccomends books by VosJolie (Bad, BAD!)
Reptiles learn "trust"
Burmese Pythons are "killers" with a link to an article which implies very strongly that the snakes themselves are dangerous (rather than pointing out that the person who died was being an idiot).
Burm clutches range from 12-36 eggs (Wow... low production numbers there Krappy)
Boa constrictors are eight feet long and forty pounds at two years of age.
Later in the same article "5-6' in the first year" and "an additional 3-4' by age two"
Neonate corns eat crickets (There is no distinction made between wild meals of oppurtunity and captive meals of an ideal nature)
Average life span of corns is ten years (I know a number of breeders who need to contact Guinness)
Garters live three years
"Most snakes can hear a person speaking in a normal tone of voice in a quiet room at a distance of about 10 feet (3 m). Two of my snakes have always responded to my calling their names; it's nice to know I wasn't imagining it!" BUUUUUUULLLLSHI... Sorry Rich.


And at this point I've honestly grown a bit bored wandering around her website, giving her hits... In the past few years I've looked at the majority of pages she has posted on anapsid.org and I've read her "Iguanas for Dummies" book, everything she has ever written falls into at least two of the following catagories; Anti-pet trade propaganda, Amazingly inaccurate, plagarized.

I'm frankly sick of hearing excuses made for her as well... "She had to deal with eighty bajillion abandoned iguanas, you'd be bitter too." The fact is, there are hundreds of people in the United States who deal directly with reptile rescue and rehabilitation who do NOT get angry and bitter and anti-pet trade... And despite what seems like high numbers of a few species, the total numbers in proportion to the number kept are nowhere near approaching the problems inherent in dogs and cats. The answer is not legislation which damages everyone's ability, no matter how well educated, to keep these animals... it lies in education about the species, getting the basics out to neophytes in a way that causes them to enter the hobby slowly and get their sea legs before tackling tougher species.

What Kraplan does is NOT education... it's propaganda. I challenge anyone to find more than five pages on her website related to animal care which do not imply in some way that keeping pets is somehow morally wrong... or that petstores are evil... or that reptiles are dangerous or impossible to keep. The rest of the inaccuracies seem, in many cases, almost deliberately placed there to make people think that certain aspects of reptile husbandry are easier than they are in reality... I suspect that this is because when a new keeper reads her information, tries to "train" their iguana and fails... they are more likely to buy into her anti-pet trade messages.

Bottom line... she's a menace to the hobby. She misinforms new keepers (who then need to have the correct information given to them by the rest of us), supports legislation that damages the pet hobby as a whole, makes statements that are damaging to the hobby as a whole (did you know that rack systems are cruel?) and generally supports and endorses everything which every passionate, educated herper is directly opposed to.

snakegetters
12-21-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Seamus Haley I'm not going to try and take up a position that Mader is somehow not certain of what he's talking about... BUT, I have also heard the gentleman make comments which are directly opposed to many which Kraplan has made... I doubt the strength of any support which may have been accidently implied at any point.


I assure you that the inclusion of Kaplan's site in lecture handout materials is unlikely to be accidental. It doesn't just slip in there without the lecturer knowing about it. LOL

My lecture notes from ARAV, NAVC and VIN (the latter is an accredited online class, the two former are live annual conferences) have Mader, Hernandez and Divers (or the Hernandez-Divers if you prefer as they got married) referring to Kaplan's site as a resource. My memory has Elliot Jacobson doing it too, but I don't have notes so this could be inaccurate.

This does not necessarily mean that these people agree with every statement on the site, but it does mean that in their professional opinions the site is good enough overall to be a helpful resource for veterinarians and their clients. If you attend Mader's lectures also, ask him directly what he thinks. He is a pleasant and approachable person and easy to talk to.


The only really credible person who actively supports Kraplan in any manner is Adam Briton (spelling? Croc guy) and in doing a bit of investigation, it turns out they work for the same publishing group.

Dr. Britton works for Crocodylus Park, and occasionally he does publish some of his work. I have known Adam for many years (since before he got his degree actually) and he has amply demonstrated during that time that he is not corruptible in the manner in which you are suggesting....even if there was more than a small amount of money involved, which there isn't. Even if the publishing group in question had a secret agenda that they were pressuring other writers with, which does not seem like a plausible scenario to me.

http://www.anapsid.org/ban.html

Which, because of the modifiers to her statements seems okay at first, but she expresses many times on other portions of her site that ALL reptiles and amphibians are "impossible to keep healthy in captivity"

I generally agree with the statements on that page. Abusing reptiles and selling sick reptiles is a bad thing. Perhaps you can also find a page on her site with the direct quote that you are attributing to her?

I am deeply suspicious of anyone who summarizes another person's position in an extremist manner that seems rather exaggerated. I have seen people do that to me in this very thread. I would like to see a web page cited that is on her site that contains the actual words you are quoting.


This, first and foremost is why she is a danger to the hobby, not somebody to be supported in any manner and someone who should be outed to the general public as what she is (mainly a card carrying member of PETA).

Are you stating as a known fact that Ms. Kaplan is a PETA member, or are you making an exaggerated statement for effect?


I'm frankly sick of hearing excuses made for her as well... "She had to deal with eighty bajillion abandoned iguanas, you'd be bitter too." The fact is, there are hundreds of people in the United States who deal directly with reptile rescue and rehabilitation who do NOT get angry and bitter and anti-pet trade...

I'm not sure if bitter is the best way to describe how it feels, at least from my point of view. I am sad and angry and outraged for these animals that have been made to suffer horribly by greedy, careless and ignorant people.

The pet and wildlife trade as it exists today produces an unnecessarily large number of animal casualties. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think that some changes need to be made to reduce the toll of death and suffering. A simple rule like no sales of the larger python or lizard species to minors without their parents in attendance AND full disclosure of their adult size and proper dietary needs would help a lot.


The answer is not legislation which damages everyone's ability, no matter how well educated, to keep these animals... it lies in education about the species, getting the basics out to neophytes in a way that causes them to enter the hobby slowly and get their sea legs before tackling tougher species.

I can't agree with that. No matter how hard we try on the education route, we can't reach everyone, and especially we won't affect the people who don't want to listen because their profit margins would be affected. I think that education is definitely important, but enforcement is necessary as well.

Imagine if we had no speed limit and no traffic cops, and just educated everyone that driving too fast and recklessly causes accidents. How safe do you think the highways would be based on education alone? Do you honestly think that everyone can be trusted to just "do the right thing"? I don't, especially if doing it wrong is more convenient, or if they stand to make more money that way.

I suspect that this is because when a new keeper reads her information, tries to "train" their iguana and fails... they are more likely to buy into her anti-pet trade messages.

I suspect you are seeing conspiracies based on simple disagreements. I have successfully "trained" many venomous snakes to simple behavioral responses. They arguably have less brain capacity than an iguana. Some of my colleagues have had even more spectacular successes training crocodilians in complex behaviors. Behavioral management of reptiles is a technique that is currently being taught to professional keepers at AZA zoo schools. I have no qualms at all suggesting behavioral management (eg, "Training") for reptiles. Neither does the AZA.

I think that many of the statements you point out as inaccuracies can reasonably be considered a matter of opinion, except for the average clutch size of a Burmese python. Ball pythons do like to climb given the opportunity, reptiles can habituate to handling (though I would not use the anthropomorphic term "trust"), neonate snakes can be started out on crickets to help stimulate their feeding response (this works particularly well with copperheads in my experience), you can grow a boa up quite rapidly if you feed it enough (though this isn't always a good idea), the average life span of a snake in captivity is likely to be relatively short due to owner ignorance and lack of vet care, and the scientific jury is still out on the vibration-sensing mechanism in snakes.

So I still don't see how Ms. Kaplan is a terrible menace to all reptile keepers. I also don't understand why so many well known and respected reptile researchers make a point of recommending her site to other veterinarians if it is so bad.

One thing I do hear a lot of at zoological and veterinary conferences is anger and contempt towards the private sector. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, or that these professionals are justified in being mad at the entire private sector because they get stuck with the problems created by less responsible private keepers. But for better or worse, the "professional" view is pretty dim when it comes to the pet and wildlife trade. I'm hearing a lot of the "professional" view on Ms. Kaplan's pages.

I think that there is knowledge and resources in the private sector that a lot of zoos could benefit by. Except that they won't, because they keep such a closed minded stance about private keepers. I walk in both worlds, and I can see the problems between them and the points that each side has that are legitimate concerns. I am guessing that Ms. Kaplan has a similar perspective, but that she's more firmly fixed into the "professional" view which tends to put down private keepers.

WebSlave
12-21-2003, 09:33 PM
I guess I need to step into this conversation.

The General BS Forum is not to be used as a way to bypass the rules for posting on the Board of Inquiry. That appears to be the case in this thread, from my casual viewing of it.

As such, much of what is being said is hearsay. If someone has some definite verifiable proof of the allegations made against some of the things Ms. Kaplan has written, then let's see them posted HERE, with links, for people to make up their own minds.

I hope this does not place an undue burden on anyone, but I think it is time to put the rubber to the road instead of just reving your engines and making noise.

Darin Chappell
12-22-2003, 11:38 AM
"If you will point out specifically the inaccurate information on corn snakes, I will research the question and see whether or not it is true that Kaplan is giving out bad information. But if breeders are saying one thing and reptile medicine experts are saying another, I know whom I will believe."

Fair enough. I would be happy to point out what evidence concerning cornsnakes I know to be wrong from her own website. The examples below range from the silly to the dangerous, but they are all wrong.

She writes:

"Amelanistic corns (those lacking the black and brown skin coloring) are sometimes called "red rat snakes" because of their red-to-orange coloring."

Uh, yeah, that sure sounds like an expert to me!


"There are presently two subspecies of corns, E. g. gutatta and E. g. meahllmorum."

What???


"wild Corns start off feeding on small invertebrates and vertebrates, such as crickets."

Not only does she have NO PROOF of this, because they do not do this (oh the occassional corn neonate MAY attempt to eat cricket, just like the occassional lion cub may eat a grasshopper, but to suggest that this is the norm in any way, is rediculous), but to put this in writing on her care sheet is absolutely irresponsible!

You want to talk about pet stores being bad for herps? I agree with that assessment for the most part. Guess what type of snake is most often found in those shops? Yep, it's corns! Guess what thousands of new owners get told each year about their new babies? That's right -- Cornsnakes eat crickets! Why can they get away with it? Because an "expert" like Ms. Kaplan has such garbage on her website!

Crickets are predatory when they are left in with a neonate cornsnake; they will eat the eyes right off of a baby corn! Further, even if by chance a corn DID try to eat one, the hard exoskeleton, with all of its sharp protrusions, on a cricket serve as a wonderful way to get your baby corn impacted, or having a tear in the unbelievably thin walls of your corn's digestive tract.

Cornsnakes, DO NOT eat crickets, and Ms. Kaplan saying they do does not make it so. For her to have such drivel on her website is absolutely wrong, dangerous, and idiotic, given the amount of quality information that has been available on cornsnakes for YEARS!


"Captive bred ones have become very popular because of all the exotic colors and patterns they "come in". Unfortunately, those morphs are caused by intense inbreeding. As a result, corns are increasingly exhibiting morbitidy and mortality problems as a result of undesireable genes being bred along with the ones for color and pattern. Failure/Inability to feed and sudden, inexplicable death are the two most common problems that have been increasing over that past several years."

All I breed and keep are cornsnakes, and I have some of the most "cutting edge" morphs available in my collection. Because of the nature of morph creation, I can assure you that some of my cornsnakes are as inbred as they can be, but I have experienced NONE of the frailties that she cites, nor has ANYONE ELSE I KNOW! I would love to see just ONE SHRED of evidence on this from her. Tanith, you have rightly asked for evidence to back up our claims about her, why not ask her for the evidence for her claims about our industry???


"An active snake will happily eat every 10 days or so. They will eat, and should only be fed, killed prey."

Ten days is often too long for a hatchling (which most people inexperienced enough to be reading this tripe will have) to go without a meal. It is sometimes the case that a corn hatchling will stop eating, or will regurge a meal, and in thos instances, people often say that one should wait ten days before offering food again. Rich Z. and I have spoken about this before, and he said (and I agree) that a hatchling waiting ten days between meals can often be a recipe for a dead baby corn, because their metabolizm is just too high to go so long without food.

Also, it is often the case that a baby corn will not readily accept pre-killed prey. Live feeding is sometimes the ONLY way to get a reluctant baby to eat. Ms. Kaplan implies that a baby corn WILL always take dead prey, if it is hungry, thereby letting someone think that their baby is not eating because it is not hungry, and it will eat later. Please understand this: Cornsnakes will starve themselves to death for a variety of reasons, and not wanting to take pre-killed prey is one of the most common for young corns!


Tanith, I do not think ill of you in anyway. I respect your desire to help animals through veterinary medicine. My own sister is a Vet, and so I have great respect for the profession. However, I believe that your support of Ms. Kaplan is somewhat misplaced.

Again, I have no way of knowing whether she is a true expert on all of the other animals about which she writes, but I do know about corns. If she, being a self-proclaimed expert, is capable of putting out such absolutely rediculous material about one of the most widely understood species of all, how can I trust ANYTHING she says about any other species???

All citations above were taken from her care sheet on cornsnakes at the following link, (http://www.anapsid.org/corn.html) which was last updated (according to the site) on December 16, 2002. Nothing was pulled out of context or intentionally misrepresented in any way.

Accept or reject this information as you see fit ...

CAV
12-22-2003, 02:52 PM
Darin has giving some very valid concerns regarding husbandry misinformation; the "cricket" rumor is one of the most common that I have addressed in recent years. Any experienced keeper can attest to the fact that young corns simply will not flourish on a 10 day feeding schedule.

NEWReptiles
12-22-2003, 03:33 PM
Ball pythons, like all pythons and boas, devour a variety of prey in the wild - amphibians, lizards, other snakes, birds and small mammals.

I read this and spent a few hundred on Corn Snakes to feed my Ball Pythons. After they refused all of the corns, I realized this info SHOULD NOT BE ON ANY CARE SHEET.

like all pythons and boas,

snakegetters
12-22-2003, 08:11 PM
Darin,

You have brought up what certainly do appear to be legitimate concerns. I would not suggest that any neonate go 20 days without a meal, which is what could happen if another 10-day waiting period is observed when it rejects food. Even 10 days is really too long for neonates. The problem is that she is not distinguishing between neonates and older, "active" snakes which do indeed benefit from a 10-day feeding cycle. So that's an important piece of information missing from this care sheet. Trying live prey to stimulate neonate feeding response is another good piece of information that is missing from this sheet.

I agree that crickets should be fed with caution because of the potential for them to cause damage to the animal. However they are a very good tool in my experience to stimulate feeding response, and I have used them successfully to help get baby copperheads started. The size of the crickets I use is small enough that the hard exoskeleton is less of a concern, and I always make sure that a slice of fresh potato accompanies the crickets into the cage.

Extrapolating what works best in captivity based on what snakes do in the wild is a difficult business. It is true that snakes can be marvellously opportunistic in the wild and may take a wide range of prey. I agree that this is not necessarily helpful information to put on a care sheet for beginners, even if it is absolutely true. But she also states clearly in the next paragraph that "corns can easily be started on baby mice." She does not seem to be actively recommending cricket feeding, though it is certainly possible that someone may extrapolate this from her comment on their habits in the wild and do some damage to their young corn with adult crickets. However they could do the same from reading the encyclopedia.

Part of the problem here is what the heck do you say to a beginner when the actual facts may confuse them? When my standard tricks with picky young snakes still don't work, I pump feed them with Mazuri carnivorous reptile diet. This is repeated every week (interspersed with more prey offers) for a month or so until they have grown large and strong enough to start taking pinkies on their own. I am not sure I would recommend this tactic to a novice because it is easy to hurt or kill a neonate with assist feeding if you are not very experienced. I solve the dilemma by assuming that anyone taking care of the species I'm writing about (venomous) has advanced enough skills that they can assist feed, so I do recommend it. That isn't a good assumption with corn snake babies though.

As for the problems with snake inbreeding, well, they certainly do exist and there's plenty of proof of that in my freezer. I buy kinked, deformed and nonviable Elaphe neonates from breeders to feed my young king cobras, coral snakes and kraits. My snake-eaters tend to get interestingly colored meals as a byproduct of corn snake breeding. LOL

Overall the information on this care sheet is fairly good, with the single really distressing omission of how to properly feed neonates. The taxonomy is questionable also, as I'm not sure how many people formally recognize meahllmorum, but that isn't a major issue in a care sheet.

snakegetters
12-22-2003, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by realvenum
I read this and spent a few hundred on Corn Snakes to feed my Ball Pythons. After they refused all of the corns, I realized this info SHOULD NOT BE ON ANY CARE SHEET.

Maybe not, but how much can you fault anyone for including information about what a snake species does in the wild? Wild snakes tend to be extreme opportunists, and researchers have found quite a range of things in the stomachs of captured animals.

Dubious prey items such as crayfish, turtles and even human garbage has been found in cottonmouth stomachs in the wild by reseachers. These remarkably tough and adaptable animals will rummage in garbage heaps and attempt to eat old, nasty roadkill. A large part of their diet in the wild consists of frogs, fish and other snakes. Does that mean it is a good idea to feed those things to my captive bred cottons? That's a leap of logic I don't think I'll be taking with my babies. ;)

NEWReptiles
12-22-2003, 09:03 PM
Cottons are different then Regius. Darn things just wont eat any snake I offer them

So your cotton mouth analogy doesnt make any sence to me Chief.

Darin Chappell
12-22-2003, 10:27 PM
Tanith,

I believe that you will find relative agreement among experienced breeders that kinks appear to have more to do with incubation temps, or possibly prenatal vitamin deficiencies of the mother, than one could ever definitively associate with genetic links. In fact, I am not aware of kinked snakes being bred to determine any sort of a genetic link. Instead, most breeders simply freeze kinked hatchlings, because they are unwilling to spend two years to prove a hypothesis, especially when those hatchlings may not be sellable due to others' preconceived ideas about "genetically linked kinks."

Even so, you seem to have already made up your mind on Ms. Kaplan. You have every right to do so. But I learned a long time ago that the relief one feels in ceasing the beating of one's head against a rock wall is more than enough motivation to actually stop. So, I now have. Take care!

snakegetters
12-22-2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by realvenum Cottons are different then Regius. Darn things just wont eat any snake I offer them

I do not know under what circumstances P. regius has been observed to eat other snakes in the wild, or the species of the snakes they have been observed to eat. However I wouldn't doubt that it has been observed. This does not translate to "all ball pythons will eat all other types of snakes under all conditions."

What snakes do in the wild is not always the same as what they can be expected to do in captivity. Also what they do in the wild to survive is not always the best or healthiest thing you can offer them in captivity. That's pretty much all I was saying.

snakegetters
12-22-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Darin Chappell I believe that you will find relative agreement among experienced breeders that kinks appear to have more to do with incubation temps, or possibly prenatal vitamin deficiencies of the mother, than one could ever definitively associate with genetic links.

Agreed, but kinks aren't the only thing I see when I buy large batches of nonviable babies for coral snake food. Excessive inbreeding in snakes certainly can cause genetic problems. The trick is defining "excessive".


In fact, I am not aware of kinked snakes being bred to determine any sort of a genetic link.

Albino Western diamondbacks that have not been outcrossed are notorious for producing an excessive number of kinked offspring regardless of prenatal conditions. I do suspect that in this particular case this trait is genetic and heritable, and may be linked to the trait that produces albinism.

I hardly think that all corn snake breeders are producing huge numbers of deformities in their quest for new morphs. If they were, my feed bills would be a lot cheaper than they are. I do agree that the problem exists and that it is not a bad idea to point it out. I think that most of the major corn snake breeders are already addressing the potential problems in a responsible manner.

Wilomn
12-23-2003, 12:35 AM
Gentlemen, this ship don't float. Stay at your own risk.

I reckon since we aren't in her "club" we don't have opinions that make enough sense/difference to change her mind.

I have seen this before and will doubtless see it again.

Damn shame though, she seemed pretty smart. No, that's not fair, I know she is pretty smart. She's proven that in her technique and in some of the information she has posted. Perhaps a new perscription for her glasses though, one that would enable her to see anything other than that specifically and in particular recommended by Mader and those very few others she has on that pedestal. That would be nice. Somehow though, I just don't see it happening.

Wes Pollock

snakegetters
12-23-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by wilomn I reckon since we aren't in her "club" we don't have opinions that make enough sense/difference to change her mind.

I reckon you are making up silly things about clubs because you insist on categorizing everything in black and white. ;) Real life doesn't work that way.

Yes, there are legitimate concerns that were brought up about the corn snake care sheet. No, Melissa Kaplan is not infallible and I don't agree with every recommendation she makes. No, she did not get everything wrong, and she is not the evil Antichrist. Give it a rest already. It sounds to me like it has become rather the fashionable thing to disparage Melissa Kaplan and to accuse her of all manner of evils, including some she isn't committing.

Whether you like her politics or not, it is a fact that Kaplan's pages are recommended by acknowledged world experts in reptile medicine. I do not particularly care if pointing out this fact makes me unpopular and causes me to be accused of participating in some Great Evil Conspiracy or suchlike silly things. It is still a fact. If you have a problem with this fact, I recommend you contact these experts directly and discuss your specific concerns.

Ask them, "Why do you continue to recommend Ms. Kaplan's site when the following potentially harmful and misleading inaccuracies exist there?" Then supply your documentation and be prepared to back up your claims. If you do this correctly, you may accomplish something good for the community. But if you make your complaints in a discourteous and unprofessional manner without any documentation, you will be rightfully ignored as a crank. That's a lot of what I'm seeing on this thread, unfortunately.

I don't take it personally when people disagree with me; in fact I appreciate it when someone takes the time to courteously point out something I might have missed. However when people debate by name calling and making personal slurs instead of stating points of fact, they simply lose their credibility.

If there was such a thing as a "club" you would have to belong to before I am inclined to listen to you, membership could be easily obtained by the simple expedient of stating your disagreements in a calm and professional manner that focuses on the facts. Some people have done this admirably; others have not. I leave it to you to decide how your own conduct measures up to these standards.

snakegetters
12-23-2003, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by Darin Chappell
Cornsnakes, DO NOT eat crickets, and Ms. Kaplan saying they do does not make it so. For her to have such drivel on her website is absolutely wrong, dangerous, and idiotic, given the amount of quality information that has been available on cornsnakes for YEARS!

I actually see two separate issues here. It is mentioned in more than one naturalist's guide that young corn snakes will take invertebrate prey in the wild. That is a factual statement; it is quite true that they will do this. The second issue is whether it is a good idea to include that fact on a care sheet for beginners, because the results could be very unhealthy for the young snakes if they make the leap of logic that what snakes eat in the wild must be the best choice for them in captivity. Nowhere on that care sheet is it stated that it is a good idea to feed crickets to corn snakes, but the assumption can be made fairly easily.

Would it have been a good idea to "dumb down" the naturalistic information on the sheet so that no one could get confused and decide to feed crickets to corn snakes based on what it says they eat in the wild? Probably so.

Snakes in the wild may have to risk eating a lot of things that are less than optimal food; it's called survival. We certainly don't need to duplicate those conditions in captivity, not unless we want the same kind of high mortality rate that happens to baby snakes in the wild.


Because of the nature of morph creation, I can assure you that some of my cornsnakes are as inbred as they can be, but I have experienced NONE of the frailties that she cites, nor has ANYONE ELSE I KNOW! I would love to see just ONE SHRED of evidence on this from her. Tanith, you have rightly asked for evidence to back up our claims about her, why not ask her for the evidence for her claims about our industry???

I am not in communication with Ms. Kaplan, but the people who will (or won't) have the evidence you're looking for are reptile specialist veterinarians with a lot of clinical experience treating corn snakes. My guess is that this statement has some truth to it, and I am also guessing that I know the source. I can check up on that and let you know, if you honestly want an answer on this topic.

Any animal can tolerate a certain amount of inbreeding, but past a certain point some undesirable recessives are going to start cropping up. Snakes are not immune to this problem. I don't think that the problem is quite as widespread as Ms. Kaplan appears to be implying, but I do suspect that veterinarians are identifying at least some cases that are as described.

And let's face it - when the average person with a corn snake notices that it is sick, the chances that it will end up in the care of an experienced reptile specialist veterinarian who can identify exactly what is wrong with it are a bit on the slim side. So there are things that could be going wrong with our snakes that we aren't ever going to know about without more advanced diagnostic tools and skills than are normally applied to a sick reptile.

Seamus Haley
07-06-2004, 02:39 AM
I am not in communication with Ms. Kaplan

Tanith, you're an outright liar.

Your website is linked off Kaplan's. I dislike Kaplan very much... but I also have slammed my head against her propaganda enough times to understand, to some degree, how she operates. She would not add a link to your site on her own unless she had permission. This means you and she have communicated.

I also now understand why you were so adamant about defending her... you share her politics and her methods. You're another dangerous one, one to watch out for and combat.

Posted here is a piece of a screenshot off Melissa Kaplan's webpage http://www.anapsid.org/mainsnakes.html showing the URL information and the link. I have a full screenshot but I don't like the way they blow the page up and force text out to either side.

Dragondad
07-11-2004, 05:53 AM
I will tend to go away from the norm on this subject but will interject my thoughts.

Liberace was not a great piano player he was a fantastic showman. MK isnt really the showman and for sure isnt a reptile expert, but she is the name thats out there and has a one stop site to cover all care info for reptiles.


Her errors, her lack of desire to correct said errors are important but what is important is that no one is doing anything about providing an alternative to her site. Now dont get me wrong, you have forums and breeder sites and breeders themselves. However most of the true beginners get their animal from the store that the eighteen year old selling is more likely to say "yuck a spiney dragon" as "wow nice beardie but dont use the hot rock go for a spot light or...."

As has been pointed out Vets are not the best source for day to day care info. So they will refer to a source that is easy and know. So rather than sit a bitch all day about MK this or MK that let do something to put the alternative out there.

If MK wants to say her snake can hear then go for it.....I talk to my snakes (I also talk to myself a lot too) and everyone laughs at me. I know that they cant hear but i dont care. But am I really hurting anything or is she.

Now I will speak to something else and when this thread started I thought it and decided that was not the time to voice my feeling. When someone asks about MK or wants to contact for info wouldnt it be better to actually say "well this is the URL to her website.....but what info did you need we can help you better" ?? NO, the sarcasm, the humor and the attempt to carry the concept of I am smarter than God and will try to make you feel stupid without really telling you anything put you all in the same boat as MK. A lot of fluff but no real substance..... Just once I would like certain individuals shut up on their rants, that in my opinion turn more beginners off than provide any worthwhile information, and provide something with some meat.

You want to stop MK dont try to impress me with how much you know about how wrong MK is. Try to impress the guy asking with how much you know about the animal he wants info for.

Glenn Bartley
07-11-2004, 01:41 PM
The following are my opinions:

So rather than sit a bitch all day about MK this or MK that let do something to put the alternative out there.

Michael,

Are you kidding. Are you living in a cave, or are you just blind as to what is out there? There are hundreds if not thousands of other sites out there for herp info. Much of that info is, in my opinion, much better than any given out by Melissa Kaplan. You see though, she does something more than provide her own brand of info, she apparently went into it as a full time business and is likely, by my guess, supported by extremist animal rights folks. That is only a guess mind you but who do you suggest should support the person or people who take up the anti MK site? Hmm, now that you have suggested it, why not get their support yourself and do what you said should be done yourself , instead of doing what surely must amount to your own type of bitching and moaning. Oh I know why, you are possibly an MK supporter, but I'll get to that later.

Oh but wait, let me tell you who is out there who already puts out information about herp care in a big time way and whose information for the most part is on the money. The Bartletts, both Richard (Dick) and Patricia, the Loves both Bill and Kathy, De Vosjoli, Phillipe (no matter that some on this site suspect him of plagiarism), just about every herpetological society that you can name which have websites, Jeff Corwin, the English guy with the red hair - O' someone or other (sorry I am bad on names), and there are pet info TV shows on local channels around the country. There are also lots of other herp authors (my goodness doesn't anyone buy books for their children anymore), herp specialty shops, zoos, museums and so forth that give out information. There are even people who have their own web pages dedicated to giving out good info about herps and herp care. Heck I even have my own site called Herp Helper of all things, and found in of all places on AOL. The main reason I have it is so people can ask me herp related questions. All of these people and institutions try to give correct information all of the time. They can be a great help to hobbyists all of the time. My guess would be that Melissa Kaplan started out this way too, but somewhere along the line I believe, or at least hypothesize, she went astray and seemingly started not to care so much whether or not her info was correct but rather how many minds she could lure to her way of thinking.

the concept of I am smarter than God and will try to make you feel stupid without really telling you anything put you all in the same boat as MK. Who was talking about god? So is what are you saying here that Melissa Kaplan is god, and we are trying to show we know more than god - or did I infer incorrectly? You want to stop MK dont try to impress me with how much you know about how wrong MK is. Try to impress the guy asking with how much you know about the animal he wants info for. No one is trying to impress anyone! Is that what you think? Maybe you have an ego problem then that is based in some way upon a hidden inner desire to be like Melissa Kaplan or to be liked by her, or maybe just to show the rest of us we are wrong, or maybe simply to support your goddess. I surely don't know but am wondering after you make statements like that.

Now to get a bit more to the point - are you one of those who would figuratively let people preaching incorrect mumbo jumbo walk among us, and say we should not point out their being wrong as a warning to others to stay away from them and to be leery of their information - because in my opinion it sure appears as if that is what you just did. I on the other hand am one who likes to call a spade a spade much as you in your own way are doing to the rest of us as you see fit based upon your own opinion. Little bit of circular reasoning there I think on your part, but I would not expect less from a supporter of Kaplan, and yes in my opini9on you seem to be just that. If MK wants to say her snake can hear then go for it.....I talk to my snakes (I also talk to myself a lot too) and everyone laughs at me. I know that they cant hear but i dont care. But am I really hurting anything or is she. And if anyone wants to doubt that you are being supportive of her, just look at the above quote where you say she should go for it. Sure there is something wrong with her telling kids, who are old enough to, with supervision, be caring for snakes, that a snake can hear airborne sounds or her voice if that is what she is saying. If they cannot hear airborne sounds, which seems to be the proven theory, then her telling people that they can would be a lie or misinformation. I believe such was recently proven in hearing test performed on king cobras and the result can be taken across to apply to all snakes that have the same ear apparatus. The thing is she seemingly, as I see it, tries to persuade kids (including and teens and gullible adults) that she is the best herp expert by suckering them into liking her. She apparently, as I see it, does so in part by making herself out to be some sort of Mrs. Doolittle character who talks to her animals (and do they listen back- well, you said that is what she says or at least that they can hear her).

Now if you cannot see anything wrong with that, tell me if a stranger walked up to one of your children and offered them a piece of candy to lure them over what would you think and do? If one walked up and said his/her puppy is lost can you help little boy or little girl what would you think or do? If one walked up to your child in a pet shop, as your child was looking at the snakes, and I started talking nicely to the snakes to impress your child or lure your child away, what would you do and think? More importantly when later explaining to your child about why not to talk to strangers and while explaining that snakes cannot hear and that the man was up to no good - riddle me this: What would you say to your child, what would your reply be, when your child looks back at you and says but Melissa Kaplan said snakes can hear daddy and that she talks to them - so why are you saying they couldn't hear that nice man at the pet shop!

Of course that is just a set of hypothetical situations and are the extreme, but why on earth don't you see that giving out misinformation to kids or others is wrong? Here is a less radical example of how it may effect a kid to believe stuff like that. Your 8 year old child is playing outside when he/she encounters an Eastern Diamondback Rattler in the yard. The snake is coiled and able to strike, but the child does not realize this and is curious. The child says to the snake "Hi Mr. Snake, I like you, do you like me" The snake rattles a warning and the child thinks this is an answer but knows enough that it is a warning or at least the child is put on alert. Then the child says "Don't be mad Mr. Snake lets be friends, I really like you, you are so cool. Can we be friends?" The child gets no responding rattle this time and figures that the snake heard him/her, and maybe even understood him/her. (Where is it that the child would have gotten an idea like this?) The child begins to walk over to the snake all the time happily talking to it telling it let's be friends when the snake suddenly and unexpectedly (unexpected by the child who thought the snake was listening) strikes and puts the child in the hospital for several days of torturous hell. When your child looks up from the bed into your eyes and says: Daddy, that nice lady said snakes could hear us, why was this one nasty I told it I wanted to be its friend?" Well what are you going to say then? That is how uninformative and misleading things could lead to disaster of the worst sort. Yet on the other hand they can also lead to the death of a snake or other herp when the info given out is about animal care. Sure it matters that the right info is given out, or that when you are informed your info is wrong and it is proven so, that you correct it.

Misinformation also leads to laws being passed that severely curtail pet ownership as has just been done in NY. Animal rights activist are probably ecstatic that this bill has passed. My guess would be that someone like Melissa Kaplan is also happy about it, but again I am guessing. I think the bill has not yet been signed into law so there is hope, but how did it get this far already. My guess is that hundreds if not thousands of herpers in NY state have written to the state government to prevent passage of this bill, yet it received only 2 (TWO) votes against it! You figure why yourself, but I think know why already and I think it is mostly because of misinformation spewed by people like Melissa Kaplan and by animal rights extremists, or maybe by people with nothing better to do and with lots of money to spend screwing over others.

I am pretty sure you will again say someone should get on the proverbial white steed to challenge her, but also bear in mind that she apparently does this full time while others have to work for a living in other ways than having a website and writing, what in my opinion, are uninformative misleading web pages and book(s). Such is the norm when it comes to hobbies or professions. Someone attacks your hobby or profession as is being done now, or someone gives it a bad name, or gives out misinformation about it, and people like you say hold everything, why are you not fighting her on her own turf! Simply put because there are other things in people's lives that also need to be done, and we do not have the same amount of time as she because she apparently does this as her profession! So we fight as we can, or better yet we provide the right stuff as we can. So any time that anyone mouths off against her for the reasons that she supposedly gives out or has given out bad info and so forth, I in my opinion think it a good thing, that is until at least which time she chooses to correct her info!

Like I said that is all my opinion, take it or leave it.

Best regards,
Glenn B

Dragondad
07-11-2004, 03:29 PM
It stuns me that just because someone takes a stance that is against the norm of the world of experience herpers that they all of a sudden become an MK supporter.

It funny but in reading this thread Glen you were the first person to answer the starter in a civil manner. For that none of my statments were directed at you. But others who would rather take the time and effort of typing to prove a point of their feelings for MK rather than truely help with a situation.

Glen take yourself out of the years of experience for a second and you are now a beginner looking to by your first corn snake. You do not know any of the sources you mentioned. You go down to the local Petco or pet shop and buy the snake. Now you dont know who to turn to. Just basic care isnt going to be answered by a vet. I might be by a book, but lets face it people just dont read anymore. All of a sudden MK gets brought up as a place to get info. Why because it is a place to get info. Type Corn Snake into google and what is the first one. This isnt a conspiracy of who "killed the snake" she has taken the time, probably because she has the time to put her "product" out there. You go to KS, and yes KS will come up before fauna will, guess who is there. Maybe AOL or other public forums. The bottom line is the beginner will go through a lot of MK before they ever get to the experience on Fauna.....and look what a person is treated like when the say the dreaded name.

Glen take a test sign up to this forum on a false name and state you need help with info on MK, you will face 10 responces of s**t before someone is civil to you. With that bad taste in your mouth are you going to come back, and are you going to just keep going to the MK site because its easy and no abuse from the experienced crowd.

My feeling is this, especially from certain individuals that as a beginner you will be humiliated for even the idea of MK is right. Look at how you responded to me and I never said she was right. (I know my snakes cant hear but I talk to my pets and I will continue to talk to my snakes they are my pets, since when does that make me an MK supporter) Until people guit trying to impress each other and deal with putting a product into peoples hands that is as name worthy as MK she will always be the one that refered to by other less knowledgable sources. And for gods sake when someone asks dont make them feel like fool for doing so.

Glenn Bartley
07-11-2004, 06:41 PM
Michael,


Well Michael, it stuns me that you would jump to this coclusion based upon what I wrote in my last post. To jump to such a conclusion is as I see it to paint the picture with your emotions and not to portray my statements factually at all.
It stuns me that just because someone takes a stance that is against the norm of the world of experience herpers that they all of a sudden become an MK supporter. I never for a moment believed you to be a supporter of Melissa Kaplan because you voiced an opinion different from others here in this thread. I believed you a supporter of Melissa Kaplan because of sentiments expressed by way of statements you wrote! Now if those statements portray you as having a stance that is supportive of Melissa Kaplan, well so be it. Bear in mind, I did not write that statement - you did!

Your statement in part was, in my opinion, supportive of Ms. Kaplan and, in my opinion, was supportive of her giving out bad advice. I saw it as specifically so with regard to the hearing capabilities of snakes. You cannot deny that you wrote it nor that it appears to be supportive in that you say she should go for it and by implying that it is not doing harm! That is, as I see it, exactly what makes you supportive of her. Of course you never said she was right but you certainly implied, as I see it, that her being wrong was not doing anyone a disservice. To give out bad info about snakes or any other reptile or amphibian, when that information is little more than an anthropomorphic ploy to attract others to your own flawed belief system is out an out wrong and can wind up resulting in harm to the very animals for which we are caring.

If you don't see your support for her that in what you wrote, read it again. If MK wants to say her snake can hear then go for it.....I talk to my snakes (I also talk to myself a lot too) and everyone laughs at me. I know that they cant hear but i don't care. But am I really hurting anything or is she. If you still don't see your support of Melissa Kaplan in that one breif statements, then what can I say. I pointed out what I saw there, what you wrote there - it is plain for anyone to see.

By the way, I am not even suggesting there is anything wrong with talking to your snakes. While it does not soothe them or communicate anything to them, it certainly can have a soothing or confidence building effect on the person doing it. If that is what you like to do fine, but don't start telling people that you talk to your snakes and they understand you, or are soothed by you, or even hear you when you know it is not so (and please don't tell me they respond or talk back - yikes). If you wonder: 'Why not tell others they can hear?', well simply because that is when it becomes so much manure or so many lies, and that is when it becomes wrong and can lead to other problems later on. The problems would likely be mostly that the same people who so much wanted to believe this fairy tale stuff also wind up believing you when you give other info, and believe you when you give bad info about them and their care. Antrhopomorphic ploys have been a tool of adults trying to sway children for many years sometimes for good and sometimes for just not so good reasons. In a case like the one under discussion it is, as I see it, an out and out wrong for the reasons I stated.

Now since you apparently are aware that Ms. Kaplan may be giving out bad or incorrect information, at least as far as other seemingly knowledgeable people are concerned, about herps and herp care, why would you ever recommend her to anyone or fault anyone for pointing out where they believe she does wrong?

Finally, I wonder why you find it funny that I posted an earlier civil answer to this thread. Are you suggesting that I was not civil toward you. My reply to you was just as civil, but maybe not as much to your liking as the other I made earlier. I was forthright, blunt, strongly to the point, and diametrically opposed to what you wrote; however, I was not uncivil in doing so. I also wonder when you say you were not addressing me in your post, do you think I took your post personally as addressed to me? I am subscribed to this thread, I read your post, which is here on a public forum, and I chose to answer it. Now if you felt humiliated or made the fool by what I wrote, maybe there is a reason for you to feel humility or foolish. You will have to decide that one for yourself. Maybe you should not be supportive of a person like Melissa Kaplan, but more supportive of they who see what they believe to be her flaws and who make attempts to correct them.

Best regards,
Glenn B

Dragondad
07-11-2004, 07:12 PM
In summary let me say this. For what ever reason I talk to my snakes I just do, not because she said I could, not because I feel they understand, I just do it.....do I tell anyone that they hear no....I tell all that they cant. (of course most listen about as well as the snakes) And for the record I have never sent anyone to, or made any statement that MK is right, and her site should be visited because its the dream source for all. Never said it never will. Enough said on that,

Your response is no different than mine it may not be to the liking and the road of our personal options but it is civil and I can deal with it.

What I found humorous "ie: funny"" is that you were not the person, do to your civil answer to the starter, that I had a problem with.

My feeling is simply this, when a beginner askes about MK, because more than likely they have been told its the place to go, instead of poking fun and making them seem stupid. Wouldnt the hobby and the trade be better suited to being helpful. I agree this hobby and business have an enough uphill battles. But keeping and educating all no matter how silly the question or statement advances more, and builds more good will than all the bashing.

Sometimes the knowledge that 30 years of experience gives can be taken for granted, but to the beginner that knowledge is the gold mine as to whether the beginner stays in the hobby or leaves never to return. Can we afford to loose one more voice in support of the hobby??

I am not so far removed from the start of reptiles in my life that I havent forgotten that the only reason I stayed was the help and knowledge of people who took the time to point out my errors and not ridicule me for making them. And yes somewhere in that mix MK's book and site was refered to me since I do have an iguana. But if I had been treated like some here treated this guy I would have chucked it all and said forget it.

Glenn Bartley
07-12-2004, 01:15 AM
point taken

SpindleHead
07-12-2004, 02:26 PM
This is a very interesting discussion, I can relate to it very well. I've been keeping reptiles for a relatively short time, less than 5 years. The first year I know nothing at all, and my WD suffered for it. I found a forum that as a whole is full of mostly younger members, or beginners like me. I learned a great deal in a very short time from that forum and have really kind of grown beyond it. I shouldn't feel that way as there are so many more newbies who need experienced help.

Had I found this site first, well I probably wouldn't have stayed. I am not saying that there isn't valuable info here but as Dragondad stated some here would ridicule rather than help. Please don't get me wrong, I am in no way perfect nor am I any more nice or any less mean than anyone else it's just that sometimes discussions get beyond control depending on the subject. Some understandably so others not so much. There are so many bright minds posting here and opinions are as varied as the reptiles that we keep that education sometimes gets lost in all of that. I guess the point I am trying to make is that MK's site doesn't have this type of format and it's alot easier for someone who is just looking for info to find it rather easily, wrong or not.

I wouldn't want this site to change to a site like that as I find info and entertainment here. I appreciate it for what it is but it may be a little much for the average young person with their first iggie or corn.

Take care,

Chris

BTW I had no idea snakes couldn't hear until I was 31. I would suspect that alot of young people have no idea either. I know I'm stupid but seems to me we never learned anything about snake in my high school.

lzrdldy
07-14-2004, 01:12 AM
hi all! this is my first time here. i also have experienced ms kaplans views. theybsuck!!!! i have been doing reptile rescues for over 30 years and i whole heartly disagree with her output on reptiles. you guys are awesome. so glad i found this website!!!!keep up the good work!!! totally addicted to reptiles of all kind!!!

Seamus Haley
07-14-2004, 07:56 AM
Michael, as you said there is often a better approach in showing positive information in conjunction to explaining why a lot of Kaplan's is incorrect, wrong, misleading or dangerous... But you yourself pointed out something; Fauna is not at the present time easily found by beginners. Word searches online will bring up several sites before Fauna begins to register and Fauna was started buy and still tends to attract a more experienced crowd.

There are certainly efforts being made to make Fauna a more beginner friendly place, but the change will be slow and there will always be the core element to this site that centers around experienced and largely educated herpers. People who have seen enough both good and bad to simply put another notch in the negative column where Kaplan is concerned if they weren't already aware of her. For those people, a discussion of the type earlier on this thread is appropriate. The original poster was linking caresheets off Melissa Kaplan's site on his geocites or AOl hometown or whatever page so he obviously already knew where she was, her contact information is all over that site. If she wasn't taking the time to respond to him on the generalized email addresses she has listed and he was naturally inclined to agree with her viewpoints and information as is evidenced by his choice of linked caresheets, why should I help him further along that evil path by providing her less public contact information?

Pug
07-14-2004, 12:10 PM
When I first came into the reptile world, the first "authority" I found was Kaplan. I read her website and always wondered why, if she was so devoted to education and the care of reptiles, she filled her works up with put downs and negative remarks. I realize now that she must have another agenda, because no one in the pursuit of spreading accurate information will fill their care sheets up with inacurracies. All over the site are these dubious caresheets, as well as statements and remarks on how "repulsive" and unsuitable reptile pets are. When I read one of her stories on why reptiles are unsuitable, I can't help but notice how poorly (and poorly is an understatement) the supposed "expert" keeper kept his animals. Obviously if their animals are dying at an alarming rate and over hundreds are being kept in such a short time, the keeper really has to be doing something wrong. Same with that college student. She supposedly buys an iguana when it's a hatchling, but three years later it has MBD? The keeper is really doing something terribly wrong!

Just now I was browsing MK's website, I clicked the link to see what she has written on bearded dragon, mostly because I have one and I've read the care guides from many web sites, as well as listened to many experts in the field. I found this:
You can find the hole page here: http://www.anapsid.org/bearded.html

Here is a little snippet:

"As the dragon grows, it is better to feed him mice (pinks, fuzzies, crews, young adult) rather than mostly insects. Whole rodent prey is more nutritious - and will not cause the impaction that insect prey can."

Having read that, do you still feel she is the foremost authority on bearded dragons or any reptile? Nearly all keepers and breeders that I have spoken to are divided on the issue of feeding mice to beardies. Some do it as a once-in-a-while treat to fatten up a bit after breeding, but many others claim it can do more harm than good because impaction issues do indeed exist with dragons and rodents. Others still say that dragons aren't designed to handle the heavy load of "nutrients" that mice will give all at one time. No where, however, is there any one who agrees that mice are a staple food for dragons. Even when mice are fed, only a pinky or fuzzy is used, never anything leading up to a young adult. Maybe a large monitor lizard, but a bearded dragon?

meretseger
07-17-2004, 12:42 PM
And yet I can see excited first time lizard owners dropping live adult mice in with half grown beardies after reading that. Or someone giving an adult beardie 6 fuzzies a day. So this site is performing the very valuable service of killing the animals of beginners.

Erin B.

Seamus Haley
07-17-2004, 01:53 PM
So this site is performing the very valuable service of killing the animals of beginners.

And that is EXACTLY what Kaplan wants. The site is riddled with anti-pet trade propaganda. Garbage about how it's impossible to keep a reptile healthy in captivity and how they shouldn't be owned by individuals. Then add in care information designed to kill someone's pet and you get people who don't know any better following outright wrong and bad advice, killing their animals and then saying to themselves "reptiles are impossible to keep in captivity." which sways them over to her side when votes banning or limiting ownership come up. Kaplan is evil. Pure malevolent evil.

meretseger
07-24-2004, 09:51 AM
This is also why I never get my information from one source. I made that mistake with my second snake... took the word of the store owner and didn't do too much other research. This advice killed a KSB in 2 months time, a remarkable feat for such a hardy little snake. I'm never making that mistake again, it was a rather valuable lesson and one that I try to share with other people. Too bad a snake had to die because of it.

Erin B.

(this same store owner is now trying to start a 'herp lobby'. Never trust a politically active herp group, especially over the internet, until you see how they treat their own animals and by what ethics they run their own store. Kaplan has nothing on this guy.)