An overhaul and new way of using the Warning System

[WebSlave]

Yeah, I know, I have gone on record about not wanting to ban anyone, and I am still sticking to that decision as best I can. But something has to be done about people who will be a problem for the discussions to stay focused, or to do something effective about people who are just not able to follow the rules or be constructive members of this site. I do not mind disagreement, but when some people wind up getting into the middle of nearly every thread, for no other apparent reason than to just be disruptive, well I think something needs to be done about it.

What to do?? Well the warning point system is in place, but really, what good is it except as a reminder system if it has no teeth to it? Even locking someone out is little good, since it is rather simple to bypass a banning and get back on.

But maybe there are some people who would like to keep their identity here, and would rather not lose it even if they have overstepped the rules substantially.

Bear in mind that this is just in the thinking cap stage, but here's what is running through my mind. How about using the warning system as a penalty system? I think I can set it to where the minor things like lack of full name and such will get 0 points but still allow me to remind users of those sorts of things. But maybe having an escalating scale of penalty points that would incur FINES when they are warranted. In other words, someone incurring a 100 point penalty would have a fine of $100 applied and they would be banned until they paid that penalty. A more minor infraction of $10 would be incurred for less problematic situations, but still it would be an incentive to be a bit reflective about how to act on this site. There will be penalty points that do not incur a mandatory fine, but those will be cumulative until a level is reached where a fine is applied.

Should I have a mandatory waiting period before they could be allowed back on, regardless of the penalty point fine? Or just fine them, kind of like an on the spot speeding ticket, and then let them go on their way?

This will do a couple of things. One - it will not affect people coming to this site that treat it as the valuable resource I want it to be. Two - there will be substantial incentive for people who do want to stay here to be more helpful than not while they are here. Three - any paid fines would help with the maintenance and support of this site, so even a little good could come from those people who prove to be disruptive if they want to come back.

If someone gets a penalty fine, and doesn't want to pay it, well heck, that's just OK with me. That is certainly their choice to make. That basically takes the banning decision out of my hands and puts it squarely into theirs.

So anyway, this idea may be so full of holes that it isn't funny, but I figured I would throw it out for discussion. Somewhere there is obviously going to have to be a compromise point between banning people at will, and not banning people at all. Trying to reach a point where most people are happy about the compromise is going to be rather tricky.

Anyway, this is open for discussion. Shoot it down, suggest options, or say what you will about a possible better solution.

Even if it is a really dumb idea but you can't think of anything better, heck I can take it. Let me know.

Thanks.

[Adam Block]

Excellent idea!

My questions are:

Who do these rules apply to? For the most part I've done little to get warning points even though people have called me everything from an idiot to an ass in threads without being issued a point, so.

I know you don't give them to Ritchie and a few other members. It's your site so you of course don't get them. If a few people are doing it in a thread you don't give them.

So for this system would you start being fair about them and issue them even to yourself when you post off topic or would you use it as a way to juice the people you didn't like and/or maybe keep being bias?

Provided you're able to start being fair with them. I think you have a great idea, $1 a point.

$1 a point, once it's PayPaled to you they can start posting again! I think it's AN EXCELLENT idea Rich.

PS, I asked to come back, I told you I would be good. Being here isn't my right, If you feel the need to kick me off, email me and just ask me to STFU!

[WebSlave]

It is unlikely that any two people will agree on the definition of "fair" in every situation. And I can't see anything ever getting done by putting something like that to a committee decision. Anyone who gets points will likely think it is unfair. I have gotten more than my share of emails from people who told me exactly that, in no uncertain terms. So if just assessing warning points got me a bucket of crap from people, I can just imagine what this system will do.

Heck, I don't know. One one hand I would like to be able to steer the BOI into the correct channel to be useful and helpful to nearly everyone. Then on the other hand, I get to feeling that it is the entertainment value that brings many people to it, so why not just let it go that way with no rules at all and just charge admission?

Beats me. Maybe there are no answers to some things.

[dwedeking]

Rich,

My recommendation is that you just leave the warning system as that ... a warning system. Make it a way to let some people know that they either broke a rule (for example - full name issue, name in subject line etc) or need to control themselves (language, excessive abuse etc). Let the people's posts stand for who and what they are.

Sometimes it seems like only the fringe people are posting and you forget that the "normal, rational" people are reading the posts and you start to think that the fringe ideas are the only ones out there. Like with good guy posts, rational and reality based posts will get little response because their is little argument and sensationalism. The posts by people that make you worry about the genetic future of mankind are the ones that get the responses.

I have assumed that the BOI was intended to help us in the hobby/industry decide who it is safe to deal with (after the intial deal on your dead beat customer that is). Those that your concerned about (as shown by this thread and the one about banning) are letting everyone know what is needed to know without you having to worry about posting warnings or banning. So the BOI is doing it's job. I think your previous method of gently pushing things back in line was more effective and less of a strain on your time and energy.

It seems lately that those with lack of attention from the people in their offline lives lately have been getting the attention they desire by trying to push your buttons as it's much more fun to get the calm, reserved people riled than the paranoid, highly edgey site owners.

[diamondback1]

Is it possible to have a set number of warnings allowed and then if that amount is reached ban the violator for a certain amount of time?

[Hues1]

One thing that has been a norm on the BOI is when actual bad/disruptive have people been called out, they've always disappeared.
While that rule doesnt apply to a very few who have continulously come back to make amends only to be even more disruptive later on.
Since this is a public Forum and Webslave has already stated his opinion on banning.....I say let democracy reign, put the banning powers into the hands of its users.
Anyone assessed a number of warning points for what is construed as disruptive/repetitive/disrespectful behavior can be "nominated" for banning. Once nominated, let the users/members of this board decide wether they wish to interact with this person or not.
Although one of the flaws I can see is where a bad guy thread might be posted about this particular person...then maybe and only maybe then allow the person to come back in defense of his already proven poor behavior.

[Darin Chappell]

I would think that having to live the lives that some morons live is penalty enough. If you don't want to ban people, I understand your position. But if that's the way it is, then just let their posts speak for themselves. They are far more damaging to the people posting them than a $100 fine would be anyway.

Don't make this site too much work for you, Rich. It's all right to let the foolish posts stand out from the crowd!

Just my opinion . . .

[Monte]

. . . because ultimately, we are the ones who give feedback to those who insist on stirring the pot with their childish posts.

The herp community - including me - has to grow up and act like adults. Sure, this is a hobby, but it is also serious business, when it comes down to spending serious money on herps. This site just saved me from spending 200 bucks on a scam artist, and right now, that's serious money for me.

I am SO thankful for this siter but I am also concerned with the way this site seems to sometimes spiral down into a peeing contest between 40 year old adolescents. It doesn't have to be this way. We are adults - many of our hobbies are also a business of sorts. Let's police ourselves - bite our tongues - ignore the inflammatory posts - and keep with the business at hand. I'd say the warning system is good - because we all get carried away - and it's a fine reminder.

I'd be against the charge system - and for just ignoring the pot-stirrers. They will go away eventually.

Thanks again Rich - this site is good. We owe it to you to police ourselves.

[JungleHabitats]

Ok on the last poll you posted about banning i stated the following: like the cooling off period idea

would there be a way to do something like this ?

10 points - 10 day ban from posting 1st offense(read only)
20 points - 20 day ban from posting 2nd offense(read only)
30 points - 30 day ban from posting 3rd offense(site ban)
40 points - banned indefinately by webslave (total ban)

gave it set up with a "3 strikes " your out rules but at the same time you would have the grace period for them to think about getting out of hand next time.


but if it could be done this was to make it easy on you not to forget about there bans have it set so that you can just check a box and that it would possibly be on a timer like you tell it 10 days ,20 days etc?


Now while the thought of actually making someone responsible forthere actions on a monitary basis is not a bad idea but i think the offeder would just not come back and while that would also be good to so the moniary gain would be zill IMO.

I still think a progressive Ban rule would work and that the rest of us would not have any problems with it . If you were to setup a pointssystem as stated above where for how ever many points you see fir or even let a poll be the judge of how many points it takes to have a first banning . While i agree that at this point most know the full name rule so that should be a warning the 1st time w/o points given if the person gets a second then give them a point .If the majority says ok 10 points and you get a 10 day ban or what ever then there is something that gives that person thetime to think Hey what i did got me banned but it was MY FAULT not webslaves fault And if something like that is set up have a detailed explanation of what will get you points and have that the Holy Grail of the BOI and dont bend it for ANYONE no matter who or what there explanation of why it was done . If we act like adults there should not be any disputing what got you the points you got as you already had a explanation of what will get them in place. Also one thing that may make it easier so that no one can say "well i didnt know where to find the points layout" how was i suppose to know ?... i say get the points guideline laid out and then simply have EVERY single member of the site have to AGREE by those terms in order to be able to continue posting here .. if they choose not to agree then they simply cant post here until they do agree more less like a Re-registration of sorts to agree to the terms or tough . If that was set up then no one could say they didnt know or understand the system imposed. Also i would say for all the points that anyone has at this time wipe the slate clean. ( i hear people going but so-n-so has so many already why start them off new ) well trust me if they have that many now ... lol it wont be long before they earn them back ? with it set to a low starting ban of say the 10-20-30 point banning they will have the choice of how they act here if then after that many bans it will be blatently obvious they dont deserve the right to be here and are nothing but a PIA to all who act like adults here in the first place .out of ALLLLLLLLL the members here i think a safe bet would be that only5-10% make waves that are not needed .


PS
and maybe before wiping the points slate clean across the board have a "shadow" forum that discloses that person prior history of actions ?

well thats my thoughts on the points & banning system basically leave it upto the offender to decide how much of a PIA they want to be and know that they can only screw up but so many times before there not going to be a thorn in the foot of the BOI anylonger ...

[HerpVenue]

Excellent idea!

My questions are:

Who do these rules apply to? For the most part I've done little to get warning points even though people have called me everything from an idiot to an ass in threads without being issued a point, so.

I know you don't give them to Ritchie and a few other members. It's your site so you of course don't get them. If a few people are doing it in a thread you don't give them.

So for this system would you start being fair about them and issue them even to yourself when you post off topic or would you use it as a way to juice the people you didn't like and/or maybe keep being bias?

Provided you're able to start being fair with them. I think you have a great idea, $1 a point.

$1 a point, once it's PayPaled to you they can start posting again! I think it's AN EXCELLENT idea Rich.

PS, I asked to come back, I told you I would be good. Being here isn't my right, If you feel the need to kick me off, email me and just ask me to STFU!



Anyone else here think adam is too dumb to read?
Or maybe is to dumb to understand?

Who do these rules apply to?
It applies to everyone. Including webslave....but only if he choses that it applies to him.

For the most part I've done little to get warning points even though people have called me everything from an idiot to an ass in threads without being issued a point, so.
Done little to get warning points?
The fake story about NERD.
Making up new names even though you were banned
posting nothing but derogatory or obscene language that webslave had to delete.

I believe I got a point for my post to you. So try doing some research mr know it all.

I know you don't give them to Ritchie and a few other members.
This comment shows how STUPID Adam Blockhead is.
I think those might be warning points next to my name.

[Monte]

. . . difficult than it has to be, Richie?

Just ignore inflammatory posts - let it go - just move on. Let's police ourselves instead of having to get warning fines. It just gives Mr. Z more of a headache. And I like the function of this site too much, to see it spiral down the way it does, at times.

C'mon guys - we can do better. Don't feed the problem and it should go away.

[herpcondo]

I think there has got to be someway to "police" the people who just live to disrupt this site,, I mean is there any "place" in the world where you can be a fool or act a fool..... and there are no penalties for it..? every club, organization, group,, or just about any entity has a set of rules that do at the worst "ban" people...
I grew up with the motto " you choose the action" you choose the consequences..... when i turned 16 and got to drive etc,,, my father told me " if you go to jail for Dui or anything else.. make sure and use your 1 call to call someone else,, don't waste it on me,, I am not coming to get you out".... and you know what i never ended up in jail,, or drank and drove,, or anything else,, because i knew i if i chose to do it,, i would end up with the consequences,, and i did not want to "rot" in jail....
If these people don't think there are any consequences,,, then why would they change,,, some people need to be "center of attention" and if the only way they can feel important is to disrupt the whole site,, and there are no penalties,, what is to keep them from doing it..?
I read the post about Webslave saying he did not want to be like the other site who bans people justified or not.. and i admire that,,, but there have got to be consequences,,, and i think banning when justified is a damn good way to do it,,,
The thing is the people who conduct themselves like adult should never have any problems,, so i say impose a money system,, or a banning system or something,,, buit a system of some sort has to be in place,,, so people who choose to be disruptive have a very good idea of what is coming there way!...
This is a great community,,, and a ton of great people who use it,, awesome fellowship,, and a real + for the reptile community,, but not to have some system in place to let the fools hang themselves just seems to punish all of us who value the site and what it represents,,,
Again just my 2 cents,,,

[Adam Block]

Okay, here is the main place you screwed up Rich.. <b>FOCUS!!</b> This whole post from top to bottom is only 200 words. I think all will agree more then 200 causes a loss of focus, more topics and just a lack of people reading the whole post.

Stick to 200 words, people will be forced to get to the point and people like my Idiot Savant friend will be forced to stop bring up the same thing in every thread cause it consumes his every waking thought and he's bored with his home life:)

I would say the first post should maybe be a little longer but ANY valid forum to vent disputes puts a limit on people’s words. Look at eBay, some of those transactions GO VERY WRONG but you gotta say what you want in what, 15 words?

Force some Focus Rich, your site, allow it to be a sideshow or take a little control! Either way I think it’s time to be proactive about it and stop talking. You know, put up or shut up kind of thing. You spend too much time vacillating on this issue!

Remember focus is key! 200 words, from top to bottom.

[HerpVenue]

my Idiot Savant friend

That is funny coming from a guy who was just whinning that I do not get warning points.


focus ADAM FOCUS try and FOCUS
since you like thw ord FOCUS

see the warnings on the side of my name?
Warning....it is spelled w a r n i n g s.


Not only do people need to focus. They need to learn how to read.


speaking of 200 words or less.
Don't forget it also applies to you.
Oh wait you are adam. it applies to everyone else but you.

[Adam Block]

Ritchie, why don't you ask webslave why you only have 4 warning points?

If you ask me he'd be foolish to slap warning points on a guy stupid enough to spend hours every day working for his site free of charge!

You should get them for posting about NERD in two thead today alone. It's called bias pal, Rich got your leash too tight for you to see that? Must be nice being clueless, enjoy, someday you're going to have to wake up...

Sort of flattering how you come out just to post in the threads I'm in. Sorry things aren't going any better for you yet, I'm sure it'll look up soon.

[Wilomn]

I think that there should be rules that ARE enforced.

It's simply not possible to have something as big as this be self-regulating. While a majority may be capable of policing themselves there will always be some who either can't or won't. This is human nature.

I think that a two strikes and you're out type of thing would be effective. On occasion someone goes on a rant that is not their typical M.O. and if it's offensive enough then perhaps a 25 or 30 day banning would effectively let them know that it should not be repeated.

But, if you are banned permanently then it should be just that, permanent, forever, eternally. Even if someone posts something negative about you, the banned person, you are gone. This is a priviledge not a right. If you can't follow the rules well enough to keep the priviledge of being here then you DON'T deserve to be here. Period.

Rules without enforcement are just so much fertilizer.

For clarity I am not at the moment thinking of anyone in particular, not even my sledding through the hills of hell buddy, and I still can't believe it's snowed down there twice so far just this year.

I am thinking that the slate should be wiped clean as of now and if you blow it bad enough to get yourself kicked off from this day forward, then that's it.

Wes Pollock

[W.Wedeking]

It looks like another tough decision for you Rich. I see alot of good ideas, and alot of constructive questioning.

I like the idiot tax idea coupled with the time out idea myself.

Time out gives them a chance to say "oh, I guess they were serious when they said you can't do that" or "gee, I guess I should actually read the TOS so I don't break any more rules".

If misbehavior continues, then the consiquences need to be stiffer.

I think the idiot tax is good compensation for you at least since you are the one who has to take the time to deal with the problems these people create. Not to mention, it gives them the option of leaving, or lightening their wallet.

I also think that awarding points should be determined on a case by case basis. And I think if these new guidlines go into effect, you should probably reset everyones points (yes, including Ritchie's even though he is sooo disruptive ;) ).

I do, however, (and I really hate to say this) not believe punitive measures should be taken against those who's posts reflect the fact that their parents didn't nurture them properly, have a lack of intellectual cognizance or are so self absorbed that they feel every post is speaking directly to them and they are compelled to reply to every one. (yes, even though they are incredibly annoying and sometimes you just want to ask them if their mother ever had any children that lived. ) As long as they are reasonably on topic and haven't violated the TOS anyway.

It would then make this an "exclusive" site. Nothing wrong with being exclusive, it would just be a pretty drastic change.


I really think you need to look at the other end of the spectrum as well. I think members in good standing should recieve merits. Something that would encourage people to behave better in a positive way.

[Wilomn]

Hey Maybe we could put Wendy in charge of handing out milk and oreos to the good boys and girls and spankings to the ones who deserve that.

Maybe she could wear some sort of official little, little being the key word, outfit to recognize her authority....... hmmmm gonna have to think on that.

And then of course, to be fair to all I reckon we would need a male counter part for those who prefer to recieve merits or demerits as the case may be, from a man.

You up for it Wendy? And I guess, if we could keep him out of your dresses, Ritchie could be your partner.

Gonna need lots of oreos though. Lots and lots.

Wes Pollock

[dwedeking]

Don't listen to her Rich. She just wants kick backs in oreos and milk. She's been watching my Godfather movies again. :D

[W.Wedeking]

Why do I have this feeling the line for the spankings would be longer than the one for the oreos?:rolleyes: :smash:

[HerpVenue]

Sort of flattering how you come out just to post in the threads I'm in. Sorry things aren't going any better for you yet, I'm sure it'll look up soon.
I am just wondering why Adam always brings up my home life.


oh yeah.....here is why

You know what, I'm an idiot, sorry for the typos and I need to just go to bed. I spend time in here just about any time I'm depressed. I shoulda never moved to SC, so I'm working on ANOTHER move but the whole isue now has me depressed. Hence my large amount of time in here.

[HerpVenue]

Sort of flattering how you come out just to post in the threads I'm in. Sorry things aren't going any better for you yet, I'm sure it'll look up soon.

Correction.
It is flattering how you always have something to say about me.
Even threads I try to stay out of. You have to go mentioning my name. You are not lucky enough to be me. So just keep dreaming.


anyway back to the topic.

I think if you totally make up a story just to try to crucify someone and destroy their good name. I think you should be banned.


Lets say you post a story about a breeder. Lets say you pretend to have a partner that bought from said breeder.
lets say you pretend the animals stayed with you for a certain amount of time.....
lets say you posted a story that would totally destroy someone.
lets say the whole thing is a lie.
lets say a year later the truth still has not been told.
lets say a year later you try to impress your so called "integrity" or lack thereof upon others.
lets say you were already banned.
lets say you came back promising to be good but have failed miserably.


I say BAN the f l_l c l< # r





If you ask me he'd be foolish to slap warning points on a guy stupid enough to spend hours every day working for his site free of charge!
1. no one asked you
2. I do not work for this site.
3. Definately not everyday.

You should get them for posting about NERD in two thead today alone. It's called bias pal, Rich got your leash too tight for you to see that? Must be nice being clueless, enjoy, someday you're going to have to wake up...
I did not post about nerd.
i was posting about a participant in the thread....which is you.
nerd happens to be one of those facts when posting about you.
Also if I get warning points...you should to.
Because this thread has nothing to do with my so called leash.
It has nothing to do with my family life.

But here you are again Whinning about other people points and posts.
you fail to see that you are doing the exact same thing those other people are.

For the most part I've done little to get warning points even though people have called me everything from an idiot to an ass in threads without being issued a point, so.
Does this mean you want warning points for calling me clueless and an idiot savant?
or should warning points only go to other people and not adam?



point.
Before you tell people they do not have warning points......READ and make sure they don't
before you tell people rules should apply to them because they did wrong......check yourself first.
Before you tell people to disclose all sorts of information..............check yourself first.

Everything you try to impress upon others.......you should be taking your own advice.

[HerpVenue]

Posted by webslave
OK, this stops HERE and it stops NOW.

There are a couple of people on this site who feel they can drag any thread they want off topic about an ongoing battle between themselves. I am not mentioning any names, and not accusing anyone in particular. But if you even THINK this refers to you, then I suggest you STOP IMMEDIATELY.

Anyone who continues such an argument in THIS thread, or any other thread where an offtopic argument will be STARTED or CONTINUED will get to try out an ENFORCED suspension from this site. That includes anyone who may even REPLY to such a post being made.

Enough is enough. And I really do not care WHO is involved or WHO I have to suspend in order to get it to STOP RIGHT NOW!!

If the person you have a gripe with or about is not either the person in the topic line, nor the person who originally STARTED the thread, then you will be walking on extremely thin ice.

I don't care if it turns out that when the dust all settles, that I am the only one remaining on this site.

AM I CLEAR ABOUT THIS?


Crystal clear.
it stops now.

[Adam Block]

Does this mean you want warning points for calling me clueless and an idiot savant?

Are you saying something negitive about idiot savants? From the quote above I'm getting the impression you think they're less then human or something... I have the utmost respect for your gut feelings Ritchie, I think it's great you're good at finding quotes and trying to twist peoples words.

Understandable you're unhappy I won't play your game. But if you search users by number of posts, you'll see I have a life to tend to. We weren't all able to rack up 5,000 posts in the BOI, oh I'm impressed, very nice job buddy! Oh and that count doesn't even include all the time you need to spend on porn sites!

Go ahead post some more quotes, I'll have a little laugh and get back to them when I get the time.

Your number one fan:)

[WebSlave]

Guess what Adam? You get to be the first one locked out. I thought my warning was pretty explicit.

Here's how it will work. You are going to be locked out of the system until you pay a $10 fine to get back in. If you figure it is not worth $10 to come back here, then so be it. Your choice.

Next time it happens, it will be a $20 fine. Then $40. Then $80. get the picture?

I'll copy this to Adam via email so he will get this message.

[Wilomn]

YEAH>>>>YIPPEE>>>>HURRA

I whole heartedly agree on this one.

Wes Pollock

[WebSlave]

Well, that's going to be the policy from now on, or until I see a reason to change things once again.

I will need to take a look at the warning structure and adjust it accordingly. There will be warnings still placed for minor problems, and some major ones as well. Warnings will not be cumulative except in the sense that I will use it as a monitor to how someone is behaving on this site. There will be no automatic point where a fine will take place. This will be completely subjective on my part, based on my interpretation of the events in a given circumstance. Everyone can lose their cool every now and again. That is acceptable. But if you exhibit this behavior habitually and frequently, eventually you will exceed a threshold of what I feel is reasonable and tolerable here.

The one being fined will certainly not agree with my decision, but I doubt it will come as a surprise.

What the fines will be levied for is someone who insists on continually causing problems or will come across immediately as someone who will be such throughout their stay here. As such, this is going to have to be a seat of the pants judgement call on my part.

But it will be similar to getting a speeding ticket. The financial aspect of having to spend money for violating a speed limit while driving tends to keep many people from speeding. Those who do speed, know the risks and have to pay the fine or they may lose their license. This warning system will act a bit differently, however. In this case, you lose your privilege to being here FIRST until you pay the fine. The fine is not mandatory, of course, as you can just choose to stay away. Which will probably just suit everyone just fine.

Some people won't agree with this, I am sure, but this is just one way I am trying to make management of this site work. If someone wants to be a real pain in the butt, and is willing to pay for that privilege, well more power to them. I can tolerate them until they run out of money, or the price to get back on just gets too high for them.

The scale for the fines will be as follows:

First offense - $10
Second offense - $20
Third offense - $40
Fourth offense - $80

And so on and so on. Each subsequent offense will double the previous one. So yeah, a rich pain in the butt can have the run of the place.

[StubbyUK]

Okay, I have no intention of getting any points - heck, I hardly ever post anyway being a confirmed lurker (I think I'm going to be a 'new' member forever, lol) but I have couple of eejit questions about the new system.

I think the fines idea is a good one, and would have no problem paying if I did bad but how are you collecting the money? I guess Paypal would work for the large majority of cases, but I know that not everyone uses this (I don't). Have you thought how people from far flung places would settle up if not by paypal?

I'm only asking to check you've considered that kind of thing as I'm wondering if collecting the money might become a headache for you, maybe dealing with different currencies and the like.

I guess it would only be a teeny percentage we're talking about here, so the system is probably fine - just playing devil's advocate and thinking of obscure problems that might arise.

Right, I think that's it, will head back into lurk mode now :)

Yvonne

[WebSlave]

Well, to be honest about it, if someone went so far as to get fined for their actions, I think the burden would be on them to figure out how to get the money to me. Otherwise, I certainly will not be losing any sleep worrying about it. If you catch my drift... ;)

[StubbyUK]

Lol, darned good point :)

Well here's hoping the fine sytem works, cos while some of the arguments can be amusing for a while, it doesn't take long for it to get tedious. I do start skipping stuff after a point and of course sod's law being what it is, that's when you miss something useful.

Yvonne