Messed up Jaw

[jmconnel]

our 4 month old hatchling has been eating well and everything perfect since he was born. The other day i looked at him and it looks as if his lower jaw is extended outward. Kinda like an underbite. He had some shed on his body but there wasnt anything that was keeping his mouth from opening. Has anyone else had this happen?

[Missymonkey]

Can you post a picture?

it may be possible that it has something stuck in it's throat that it ate which is pushing on the jaw,... Otherwise it probably is a birth defect and then it's pretty much surgery and good luck finding a vet who's reasonably priced and actually knows what they are doing.

As long as she/he still eating I wouldn't worry too much. It may just be one of those quirks that will live with it through it's life.

[jmconnel]

I dont have a pic just yet. I will take one in the morning. I dont think its a birth defect because has not always been like that. He was a normal healthy leo. Its like he has an underbite all of a sudden like his jaw is out of alignment. I'll post the pic tomorrow so y'all can see what i am talking about.

[Clay Davenport]

Is he getting adequate calcium/D3 supplementation?
I have seen insufficient calcium levels result in mishapen jaws.

Also does he have cagemates or any cage furnishings that could be responsible for an injury?

[jmconnel]

This should make it clearer what i am describing

[jmconnel]

He did actually let me hold him

[jmconnel]

one more

[jmconnel]

i havent been supplementing him with any calcium cause i was afraid i would give him too much. He has been eating fine on roaches and he ate one today. He acts like he is having trouble opening his jaw. He tried to grab the roach but kept missing. I picked it up and put it right infront of his mouth and he ate it. As you can see in the pics that his lower jaw is slightly sticking out and i know he can open it cause he opened it when i held him and he was trying to bite me. the only cage furnishings i have is a coconut shell hide and a cardboard hide. He shouldnt have injured himself on them.

[herpspaz]

Jim, looks to me like it's either a birth defect, or a calcium deficiency.

while you can overdose on calcium, not giving them any at all doens't help either...

If you don't supplement by dusting, you should at least leave a little dish of calcium powder in the tank at all times so she can lick it when she feels the need for the powder. She's not going to get addicted to it and lick it when she doesn't feel she needs it. (therefore reducing the risks of overdosing)

I would probably take her to a vet to find out for sure whether it is a birth defect, a calcium deficieny, or something else. if it is a birth defect, i would recommend NOT breeding her ever as it could be a trait that could be passed on to the offspring.

good luck!
-Karin

[herpspaz]

whoops! sorry, didn't mean JIM, meant JOHN...(haha, saw JM and thought jim...sorry)

[jmconnel]

If it was a birth defect wouldnt its jaw had been messed up before and not have an acute onset?..........i have placed a dish of calcium in the tank with her. Here is a pic of her when she was a couple of months old.

[Missymonkey]

how weird,...

although it does add character. He looks like a mafia lord like Al Capone with a big lip like that.

It probably isn't a birth defect if it just popped up. Unless it was born with a weak jaw and it popped out of place, or it's a growth defect and the jaw is growing in weird ways.

I have a couple of leos that can't catch crickets worth a darn and so I feed them mealworms and wax worms because those are slow and easier to catch. Just a thought if you get sick of hand feeding.

It has a nice thick tail though and looks all over healthy which is a good sign. It's good that you are paying such close attention to her/him.

[herpspaz]

it can be a birth defect and not show up for a few weeks or months. I'd take it to a vet to be sure. it's the only way you'll know what's best to fix the situation and not let it get worse.

and if those pics posted earlier were RECENT pics, i would say that it could definatly use more weight. she's not unhealthy looking or thin, but just could use more weight before i'd consider her "good" to go.

-Karin

[jmconnel]

yeah i know she could use some more weight but she will only eat a certain amount of roaches at a time. and she goes on and off eating binges. I am thinking that it is a calcium deficiencey problem because i havent been supplementing her with any. Mostly because i was just concerned of her eating consistantly and i didnt think that it would play such a big role in developing normal. Ive placed some calcium in the cage with her and im going to dust the roaches tomorrow when i try to feed her again. I just hope her jaw goes back to normal cause she is our first offspring.

[herpspaz]

why may i ask are you offering her roaches instead of crickets or mealworms??

i don't know the exact nutritional value of roaches, i've never fed these to any of my herps, but if she is not eating as many roaches as she needs to fatten her up or give her proper nutrients, why not switch to the more conventional crickets and mealworms?? she may be more willing to eat these items, rather than roaches.

My leopards now do not get anything but mealies, the occasional dusted crix as treats and so they can get some excercise by hunting them, but i've noticed that since switching over to mealworms as the majority of the diet, all of them have gained weight. (i gutload them for 24 hours, then put them in a clear glass ashtray in the tank).

Also, what are you using as gutload?? this is one of the MOST important parts of your geckos health, and some minor adjustments can make a big difference.

[Clay Davenport]

There's nothing unconventional about roaches, they are a superior feeder insect when compared to crickets.
I've used them as my only feeder for three years on species including acanthurus monitors, veild chameleons, bearded dragons, and tarantulas.
Lobster roaches are equal to a cricket from the perspective of the health of the lizard, but they are far better for the keeper. Easy to raise in large quantites, and a much longer lifespan than a cricket.

Nutritionally, both crickets and roaches are actually better than mealworms due to the chitin to digestable matter ratio. Gram for gram, mealworms have far more undigestable chitin than either of the other feeders. This does not apply to Madagascar Hissers however, they have a much more developed exoskeleton.
This is not to say feeding mealworms is wrong, geckos do fine on them as a staple in the diet, as you have seen yourself. It's just a point to be made when discussing the nutritional content.
The volume eaten coupled with the decrease in the need to regularly chase food contributes more to the weight gain than the mealworms themselves.
As an example, for a couple of years I fed my monitors free ranging roaches. They had good weight, but were still lean. A few months ago I switched to using a feeding container within the cage that contained the roaches. The volume of food eaten has not changed, but the monitors have all put on noticable weight. I have recently decreased their food intake somewhat so as not to risk obesity. The decrease in necessary activity levels has been the cause of this.

[jmconnel]

I was going to refer to your input on the roaches. I know and you know that they are so much better than crickets. Everyone should switch to roaches and do away with their insect expenses forever. Ive done meal worms before and the amount of mealworms that i have to feed to my adult female gecko would take forever to feed her cause she never got full. As far as the roaches go i agree with clay that they are by far a better feeder than crickets. I would have never heard about them if it wasnt for clay. Thanks for saving me A LOT of money and pain.

[herpspaz]

huh, i will definately have to give them a try!!!

I apologize for criticizing your feeding method, i had simply never heard of many people feeding their geckos, especially leopards, roaches. I had just assumed that there had to be a good reason crickets and mealworms were the primary choice for many breeders and keepers for their leopards. (any idea as to why this is? i mean, i don't come across many caresheets that say "roaches" in the list of food, usually only the usual crix, mealies, waxworms, maybe even superworms.)

What type of roach do you feed, how big are they, and what do you gutload them with??

I am very interested in giving it a shot, as I am always here to learn!!

Thank you Clay for pointing that out to me and probably to many learners as well.

John - I'd still give the crix and mealies a shot, some leos are just picky and stubborn. :D

[Clay Davenport]

Roaches are very quickly gaining in popularity as the primary feeder insect in many collections. This has only really happened over the last few years.
The main reason that crickets and mealworms etc are all that's mentioned in the literature is that's what people are used to. for decades that's what was available and what people used as feeders.
One of the biggest obstacles to people trying roaches is what I call the yuck factor. To people in this country, roaches are only a pest that infests your house, and definately not something they want to bring in intentionally.
The fact is there are around 5000 species of roach worldwide, and only about 50 or so of those are actually pest species, meaning they inhabit human dwellings. The remainder serve a vital function in nature as a huge clean up crew.
In fact none of the roaches I keep have the ability to infest my home. Escapes are inevitable, but they never survive. There are several factors that play a part in this, but one of the most important is temperature requirements.

Of the roaches commonly available today, I'd have to say the lobster roach is the best feeder, especially for smaller lizards. They have the highest reproductive rate, and are exceedingly easy to raise. They also remain small (1.25" at the biggest), and are softer bodied for easier digestion.
The only drawback with them is they can climb glass, so this has to be taken into account in your feeding methods.
There are a few species of non climbers available, but they have a significantly slower reproductive rate than the lobsters, and some are prone to wing biting and require more attention to their food intake.
Madagascar hissing roaches are currently the most popular roach, again because that's what people are used to, but they are only really suitable for larger lizards, especially monitors.
They have a serious exoskeleton once mature, and are hard to kill let alone digest. Plus, it takes a bigger lizard to get down a 3-4" roach.

The short answer on gutloading is I don't. That's a practice that's been really over hyped and is promoted by those with small collections generally.
It's a fine practice, but try it with 10,000 roaches sometime. Gutloading 1000 crickets isn't even practical.
Anyone with a good sized collection quickly realizes that gutloading in the classic sense is an excercise in futility.
Few people remember than when gutloading was first proposed a 12-15 years ago, it was primarily for the purpose eliminating, or greatly reducing the need for supplmentation. It has since suffered the same result as the UV light issue and has become accepted as the gospel by many people. The truth is it's great if you do it, but nothing is going to die if you don't prepare a salad or use some expensive commercial gutload for your bugs.
The staple diet I use for the roaches is chicken laying pellets and apples for moisture. The laying pellets are fortified with calcium and that's the best I can do considering the number of bugs I have. I also dust with Miner-All at regular intervals.
They also get random vegetable scraps at times rather than throwing them away. I suppose that diet is a form of gutloading on a very basic level, but I don't go to any trouble just to make sure I do it.

[herpspaz]

clay, i guess when i ask about gutload, i really mean what are you feeding them, which is exactly what you answered with. I also give them chicken feed, but it is Purina Layena..i believe it is for laying hens, so i don't know if there is a difference between that and what you're using. Although, i have lately been hearing that the Layena (and perhaps chicken feed in general) is too high in something...perhaps protein? I also throw in potatoes and carrots for moisture, and the scraps of greens from my bearded dragon and iguana salads. (good to know me not going all out on the gutload isn't too detrimental)


off to do some research on roaches...

thanks again!
-Karin

p.s. John any new developments on the jaw? (sorry to change the topic in your thread)

[WaranTor]

i still think that the AVERAGE person with the AVERAGE amount of herps SHOULD gut load. it helps a little and i dont see why not.

roaches are a great source for herps diet however i dont think that any person shouel just give ONE type of feed to their pets. every different feeder insect has a different neutritional value some might be higher in protien than others, and still others may be higher in fat. this is why i try to feed mine a variety of insects. from silk worms to crickets to roaches... now the staple diet is crickets because i dont have time to order roaches in large quantities, and im not home for when they get delivered. most of my feed suply comes from a little reptile store near my house on my way home from work. mealies crickets roaches and even superworms are great for a staple. my cousin is a herpitologist and she recomended that i feed a variety of insects to my geckos because of teh variety they woudl naturally ingest. again like i said some peopel may not be able to with time restraints and what not. i am very busy myself with grad school and raisning 12 leopards is tough work. granted im sure there are some of you who handle MANY more than that but for me its a lot.

i enjoy reading some of the sugestions this forum has i have not dealt with roaches that much and i didnt realize that there were so many of you out there that use them on a regular basis. this is great! thanks
Andy

[jmconnel]

What i like about roaches is that you dont have to order them. Clay gave me about 30-50 roaches last Thanksgiving and i havent had to buy an insect in over a year now. If you look in the tub we keep them in there are more than you will ever be able to count. Buying a small colony of roaches and all you have to do is put some heat tape underneath the tub and you are set forever.

Oh and i am busy too being a senior in college. Thats why i like the roaches because of their convenience. Especially this time of year ordering insects and they often come to you dead because its really too cold for shipment. Now if i was back home where there are a lot of bait shops it would not matter as much but since i am in charlotte(the city) its harder to come across them.

[Clay Davenport]

You really can't order roaches as feeders anyway, you order them so you can start your own colony. While they're not expensive insects, they are too expensive to buy directly as feeders.
As far as time involved, I have somewhere between 10 and 15,000 lobster roaches right now all sizes included, in four seperate colonies, one colony of Discoid roaches which numbers a few hundred, and a few hissers since I recently sold those colonies. In all I spend about 15 minutes every 3 days or so, and that's all the time involved in caring for that many bugs.
I also give them chicken feed, but it is Purina Layena..i believe it is for laying hens, so i don't know if there is a difference between that and what you're using.
I'm sure it's very similar. I've been using "Big M" brand, which is what the local grocery store carries, but the last bag I got from wal mart. I can't think of the brand right off but it is crumble instead of pellets, which is ground up to a point and I believe will be easier for the smaller roaches to eat.
Higher protein is required with some species of roaches to avoid wing biting, but lobsters aren't prone to that. I can't remember the exact protein content of the feed I use but it seems like it is 16%. I know I only feed the mice a food with a minimum 20% protein and the laying mash doesn't have that much.

[herpspaz]

Andy - what type of roaches have you tried and where did you get em from??

Clay - wanna shoot a few roaches my way for a sample?? tee hee...JK..:D ;)

i feel that also being a college student...i am also very poor and very busy....perhaps roaches are the way to go...

can either John or Clay give a quick run down on the care of the roaches? say the lobster roach in particular? Or do you guys recommend another type that is similar in size and softness, yet maybe doesn't climb glass??

John and Clay - do you both feed strictly on roaches?? would you recommend them for beardies, or small skinks as well??

-tons of questions as always,
Karin :D

[jmconnel]

you just need to check out Clay's website, he has it all spelled out for ya.
http://roaches.arbreptiles.com/lobsters.phtml

im doing a little bit of advertising for Clay, since that is my major and everything ;)

They work perfect for me, except when girls come over and ask what you feed your geckos and spider. Sometimes we tell them and then they get freaked out by the thousands of roaches that are sitting in a tub in your living room. That outweighs everything bad about crickets tho. I have nightmares about the smell of rotting dead cricket bodies.....the thought of it still makes me gag.

[WaranTor]

Karin i have tried teh lobster roaches however i only got them from a guy at the swap to try! he did not give me enough to make a colony. i only got about a dozen. they are great the geckos seemed to love em! but like i said i believe strongley in a variety of insects. if i were the gecko i wouldlnt want to have to eat stinky crickets all my life! or even crunchy mealies either!

yes CLAY! please shoot me an IM more about startinga colony! im very interested in keeping about 100-200 at any given time so that i can just have a good stock! is that possible?

thanks again.

Andy

[Missymonkey]

I have nightmares about the smell of rotting dead cricket bodies.....the thought of it still makes me gag.

I so agree! I've only ordered large quantities twice and both times the 700 leftover crickets die within the week. Stink city!!!

I think I may try switching to roaches. Can little geckos eat them too? I guess I am invisioning these crunchy little roaches that may require a little oompf to bite through.

[jmconnel]

My baby all we do is find a smaller roach and squish its head a little and it just sits there moving its legs. Usually she takes it right up and they wont move much at all.

[herpspaz]

how often do you have to clean out your cricket bins and what is the smell factor compared to crickets???

i absolutely hate keeping crix, we stopped getting them in bulk order (we usually do 500 every two weeks, because 1000 dies off too quickly) but not, we would rather buy them in much smaller amounts at the petstore (chicago reptile house) every week or so instead. the smell was horrendous...and we even got a major fruit fly attack from them.

-Karin

[jmconnel]

We usually clean them out really well once every week or 2......my colony is not near the size of Clays, but there are still a ton of roaches, my roommates were commented today that there are so many of them in there. I cant describe the smell, well since i feed them oranges, there is an oranage smell that usually overcomes whatever smell they produce. Now some people are actually allergic to roaches, me and my roommates are not, but some people are. The smell is very minimal, nothing like crickets, when i use to buy them by the 500 or 1000s there were so many that die it was rediculous to clean out. I havent had that many roaches actually die, that is what the weird part is. They can live for almost a year so for me i rarely see many dead ones. Unlike what is seen with crickets when half of the colony crokes before you have had them a week.

[WaranTor]

how would i be able to start my own colony? woudl one of you gentlemen be willing to loan me about 30-40 of your colony? hmmm? i woudl be interested in suplimenting them into my geckos' diets! speaking of i need to get some superworms again.

thanks
Andy

[Clay Davenport]

I always say, if your roaches smell, then you're doing something wrong.
They do have a scent, but it's hard to describe. It isn't offensive though, and smells alot like what you feed them.
The one thing that will create odor in the roach tubs is dampness. You do not want condensation or any moisture to collect inside the tub. It will quickly foul the fecal pellets and the odor rivals crickets. The key is just not to let that happen, use adequate ventilation.
The roaches' waste material is dry and what will cause the condensation in the tubs is the humidity created by the vegetable matter you feed them if there's not enough ventilation. This is particularly common during the summer months.
Lobster toaches have wings, although they do not fly. I always kept a vented lid on the tubs just in case, but this summer I got rid of the lids entirely to achieve maximum ventilation. They do not escape and the lack of lids just makes it easier for me to service the tubs.

As for cleaning, I clean my tubs probably about every other month. Once I get an inch or so of fecal pellets in the bottom of the tub, I go ahead and break it down and clean it out. Cleaning it is just a matter of dumping the waste and wiping the bottom out with a damp paper towel, but removing the roaches can take some time if you try to get every last one you can.
During the summer I normally pour the waste material into a rubbermaid box and freeze it in the rodent freezer for a couple of days before throwing ti out, just to ensure no bugs are thrown out live. They wouldn't survive the winter, but I still try to keep from introducing any foriegn creatures into the woods.
It's easiest just to have two tubs for each colony when cleaning. Then you just transfer the roaches into the alternate tub where they remain until the next cleaning time.

On the subject of allergies, some people do exhibit an allergy to roaches, however it's normally with the hissers. There's something about them and their feces that causes it. I suffered from it myself. When cleaning the tub I would sneeze, my nose would run, and at times I would get asthma syptoms. I experience none of that with the lobsters though.

[Xelda]

I hope you're supplementing him now. It's extremely important for babies and juveniles to grow properly. You're more likely to give not enough calcium than too much. I've heard a ton of MBD cases but not a single hypercalcemia one.