Unlawful arrest and detention

[crotalusadamanteus]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/581123_514338131926125_180264663_n.jpg

Brandon Raub. Decorated Marine Corps war vet exercised his first amendment rights on facebook. Below is the post he made...

http://wtvr.com/2012/08/21/full-text-brandon-raubs-proclamation-take-our-republic-back/


As a result of his post, the FBI arrested him, and took him to a "mental hospital" for evaluation, and he was supposed to be in front of a Judge on Monday just passed. Yesterday, the following text was received via Brandon's brother...


Via Brent M Raub : Big update on Brandon Raub.He being transferred to Va hospital in Salem.Close to Roanoke. Their Agenda is to hide him from the people.To complicate things for our Lawyers and to keep my family from being able to contact him.

This patriot deserves the help and support of the people. If you can find it in your heart to do so, please donate what you can to the following fund for his defense. His mom and family are devastated over this. It is a serious injustice and total violation of his guaranteed constitutional rights.


https://fundrazr.com/campaigns/8LqA0

[JColt]

In one message earlier this month according to authorities, Raub wrote: "Sharpen my axe; I'm here to sever heads."

I'm all for freedom of speech but if you choose the wrong words it will cost you. I dont understand the defense fund. He has not been charged with a crime and has a lawyer to look out for his interest from civil liberties group.

The family posted one of the facebook postings but here are others that federal agents contend posts made by Raub were “terrorist in nature.”

[crotalusadamanteus]

And how doea that statement vonstitute a direct threat or act of terrorism? No names or direct threats occured.

Civil liberties groups don't work for free there are fees involved. But I'm not going to turn this into a debate. You don't want to contribute...don't.

[JColt]

The 30 day evaluation isn't free either. Tax payer paid. I'm just saying there's more than just "My civil rights have been violated" stuff going on here.

[JColt]

aub is being represented by attorneys associated with the Rutherford Institute, a Charlottesville, VA based civil liberties organization that provides free legal services to people whose constitutional and human rights have been threatened or violated.

[Shadera]

While I don't disagree with much of what he said, they're probably making an example of him through the UCMJ. If he's out, but he's inactive ready, receiving any sort of monetary benefit, still receiving VA healthcare for an injury, etc, they can unfortunately nail him to the wall for those kind of comments.

Don't like it a bit, though.

[Lucille]

The fundraising request is for $10,000. If he is receiving free legal representation, exactly why are these funds needed?

[WebSlave]

It seems that the definition of "terrorism" has become like modeling clay lately. Of course, everyone will be against terrorism. Just adapt the definition of the term to fit whatever circumstance you wish it to apply to.

Of COURSE the government is terrified of the populace waking up and demanding our country back from their grubby little paws.

[Metachrosis]

Free Legal Representation will not vindicate this man,"the need" is for Legitimate Representation.
This event will "become" very hard to follow in the coming weeks.

[JColt]

The moment they started using words like homeland security, domestic terrorism and 911 I started worrying.

[Lucille]

Free Legal Representation will not vindicate this man,"the need" is for Legitimate Representation.
.

What does that mean, and why would it cost $10,000?

[Dennis Hultman]

In one message earlier this month according to authorities, Raub wrote: "Sharpen my axe; I'm here to sever heads."

I'm all for freedom of speech but if you choose the wrong words it will cost you. I dont understand the defense fund. He has not been charged with a crime and has a lawyer to look out for his interest from civil liberties group.

The family posted one of the facebook postings but here are others that federal agents contend posts made by Raub were “terrorist in nature.”

“Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads.” Raub posted to Facebook on August 13, 2012. The post appears to be a lyric from the band Swollen Members and its song “Bring Me Down.”[/B]
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/former-marine-detained-after-alleged-facebook-threats/

[Dennis Hultman]

Support Grows for Former Marine Arrested for Posting Anti-Government Messages to Facebook


http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/08/21/support-grows-for-former-marine-arrested-for-posting-anti-government-messages-to-facebook/


Support is growing for a former Marine who was locked in a psych ward for posting anti-government messages on Facebook. The man in question, Brandon Raub, says he loves his country, but posts made recently on the social networking site garnered complaints from the online community.

Some of the comments include the likes of the following two, from August 12 and August 13 respectively:

“Friends, you deserve to know the truth. There has been an overwhelming amount of evil enacted and planned against you, your children, and your countrymen. It is great in scope. Your government evil. It is as simple as that.” The next reads, “sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads.”

F.B.I., Secret Service and Virginia police then took Raub into state custody, allegedly without a warrant and without reading him Miranda rights. Virginia state law allows police to commit someone for an emergency psychological evaluation if they get a recommendation from a mental health doctor, and authorities say they never officially arrested Raub — he was only handcuffed because he resisted police.

However, a Virginia civil rights group disagrees, saying that when you’re handcuffed and taken away, that’s an arrest.

A defense attorney from the group who is representing Raub, John W. Whitehead, said in a statement yesterday, “For government officials to not only arrest Brandon Raub for doing nothing more than exercising his First Amendment rights but to actually force him to undergo psychological evaluations and detain him against his will goes against every constitutional principle this country was founded upon.”

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“Given the circumstances with the things that have gone on in the country with some of these mass shootings, it would be horrible for law enforcement not to pay attention to complaints,” said Dee Rybiski of the F.B.I. in a response.

So says the Precrime division.

[Dennis Hultman]

Huffo Post

RICHMOND, Va. — A former Marine involuntarily detained for psychiatric evaluation for posting strident anti-government messages on Facebook has received an outpouring of support from people who say authorities are trampling on his First Amendment rights.

Brandon J. Raub, 26, has been in custody since FBI, Secret Service agents and police in Virginia's Chesterfield County questioned him Thursday evening about what they said were ominous posts talking about a coming revolution. In one message earlier this month according to authorities, Raub wrote: "Sharpen my axe; I'm here to sever heads."

Police – acting under a state law that allows emergency, temporary psychiatric commitments upon the recommendation of a mental health professional – took Raub to the John Randolph Medical Center in Hopewell. He was not charged with any crime.

A Virginia-based civil liberties group, The Rutherford Institute, dispatched one of its attorneys to the hospital to represent Raub at a hearing Monday. A judge ordered Raub detained for another month, Rutherford executive director John Whitehead said.

"For government officials to not only arrest Brandon Raub for doing nothing more than exercising his First Amendment rights but to actually force him to undergo psychological evaluations and detain him against his will goes against every constitutional principle this country was founded upon," Whitehead said.

Raub's mother, Cathleen Thomas, said by telephone that the government had overstepped its bounds.

"The bottom line is his freedom of speech has been violated," she said.

Thomas said her son, who served tours as a combat engineer in Iraq and Afghanistan, is "concerned about all the wars we've experienced" and believes the U.S. government was complicit in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. One of his Facebook posts, she said, pictured the gaping hole in the Pentagon and asked "where's the plane?"

Whitehead said he found nothing alarming in Raub's social media commentaries. "The posts I read that supposedly were of concern were libertarian-type posts I see all the time," he said.

The big concern, Whitehead said, is whether government officials are monitoring citizens' private Facebook pages and detaining people with whom they disagree.

Dee Rybiski, an FBI spokeswoman in Richmond, said there was no Facebook snooping by her agency.

"We received quite a few complaints about what were perceived as threatening posts," she said. "Given the circumstances with the things that have gone on in the country with some of these mass shootings, it would be horrible for law enforcement not to pay attention to complaints."

Whitehead said some of the posts in question were made on a closed Facebook page that Raub had recently created so he questioned whether anyone from the public would have complained about them.

"Support Brandon Raub" Facebook pages have drawn significant interest, and other Internet sites had numerous comments from people outraged by the veteran's detention.

Raub's supporters characterized the detention as an arrest, complaining he was handcuffed and whisked away in a police cruiser without being served a warrant or read his rights. But authorities say it wasn't an arrest because Raub doesn't face criminal charges.

Col. Thierry Dupuis, the county police chief, said Raub was taken into custody upon the recommendation of mental health crisis intervention workers. He said the action was taken under the state's emergency custody statute, which allows a magistrate to order the civil detention and psychiatric evaluation of a person who is considered potentially dangerous.

He said Raub was handcuffed because he resisted officers' attempts to take him into custody.

[WebSlave]

But authorities say it wasn't an arrest because Raub doesn't face criminal charges.


Maybe they need to look up the definition of "arrest". :rolleyes:

So now the "authorities" can slap handcuffs on you and haul your ass away just saying it's nothing but a friendly invitation to a chat at the station? Sheesh....

Once you have had your right to freedom of movement taken away by anyone having the authority to do so, you have been ARRESTED.


He said Raub was handcuffed because he resisted officers' attempts to take him into custody.


Yeah, he resisted WHAT, exactly?

"Taking into custody" is not being placed "under arrest"? :crazy03:

Apparently he was not permitted to leave voluntarily so yes, his freedom of movement was ARRESTED.

I guess the term "terrorist" is not the only term coined from modelling clay these days.

[Dennis Hultman]

Attorney Statement on Brandon Raub; Raub to Be Detained Indefinitely
http://www.dailypaul.com/249888/attorney-statement-on-brandon-raub-raub-to-be-detained-indefinitely

CHESTERFIELD, VA— The Rutherford Institute has come to the defense of a former Marine, 26-year-old Brandon Raub, who was arrested, detained indefinitely in a psych ward and forced to undergo psychological evaluations based solely on the controversial nature of lines from song lyrics, political messages and virtual card games which he posted to his private Facebook page. Although the FBI and Chesterfield County police have not charged Brandon Raub, a resident of Chesterfield County, Va., with committing any crime, they arrested Raub on Thursday, August 16, 2012, and transported him to John Randolph Medical Center, where he was held against his will due to alleged concerns that his Facebook posts were controversial and “terrorist in nature.”

In a hearing held at the hospital, government officials disregarded Raub’s explanation that the Facebook posts were being interpreted out of context, sentencing him up to 30 days’ further confinement in a VA psych ward. In coming to Raub’s defense, Rutherford Institute attorneys are challenging Raub’s arrest and forcible detention, as well as the government’s overt Facebook surveillance and violation of Raub’s First Amendment rights.

“For government officials to not only arrest Brandon Raub for doing nothing more than exercising his First Amendment rights but to actually force him to undergo psychological evaluations and detain him against his will goes against every constitutional principle this country was founded upon. This should be a wake-up call to Americans that the police state is here,” said John W. Whitehead, president of The Rutherford Institute. “Brandon Raub is no different from the majority of Americans who use their private Facebook pages to post a variety of content, ranging from song lyrics and political hyperbole to trash talking their neighbors, friends and government leaders.”

Brandon Raub, a former Marine who has served tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, was detained by FBI agents and police officers at his home in Chesterfield County based upon the nature of content posted to his Facebook page in recent months. Like many Facebook users, Raub uses his Facebook page to post songs lyrics and air his political opinions, as well as engage in virtual online games with other users.

On Thursday, August 16, police and FBI agents arrived at Raub’s home, asking to speak with him about his Facebook posts. They did not provide Raub with a search warrant. Raub was cooperative and agreed to speak with them. Without providing any explanation, levying any charges against Raub or reading him his rights, law enforcement officials then handcuffed Raub and transported him first to the police headquarters, then to John Randolph Medical Center, where he was held against his will.

Outraged onlookers filmed the arrest and posted the footage to YouTube. Law enforcement officials have stated in press reports that Raub was not arrested. However, as attorney John Whitehead points out, if the police have put handcuffs on you and you’re being held against your will, that qualifies as an arrest.

In a hearing before a special justice on August 20, government officials again pointed to Raub’s Facebook posts as the sole reason for their concern and for his continued incarceration. Ignoring Raub’s explanations about the fact that the Facebook posts were being read out of context and his attorney’s First Amendment defense, the special justice agreed that Raub should be incarcerated at a VA hospital for up to 30 more days. Rutherford Institute attorneys are working to challenge Raub’s detention and the highly unconstitutional nature of the government’s actions.

SOURCE: The Rutherford Institute

[Metachrosis]

Thanks Dennis,I was heading that direction myself
Surprised Hillary Clinton didn't beat you to it ;)

“Sharpen up my axe; I’m here to sever heads.” Raub posted to Facebook on August 13, 2012. The post appears to be a lyric from the band Swollen Members and its song “Bring Me Down.”[/b]
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/08/former-marine-detained-after-alleged-facebook-threats/

[Lucille]

Free Legal Representation will not vindicate this man,"the need" is for Legitimate Representation.


What does this mean? He is being represented by a very well respected institute. I have no doubt he needs representation at this point, but why exactly does he need $10,000 if the representation is free? Who made the $10,000 figure and where is the list of what it covers?

[Dennis Hultman]

Maybe they need to look up the definition of "arrest". :rolleyes:

So now the "authorities" can slap handcuffs on you and haul your ass away just saying it's nothing but a friendly invitation to a chat at the station? Sheesh....

Once you have had your right to freedom of movement taken away by anyone having the authority to do so, you have been ARRESTED.



Yeah, he resisted WHAT, exactly?

"Taking into custody" is not being placed "under arrest"? :crazy03:

Apparently he was not permitted to leave voluntarily so yes, his freedom of movement was ARRESTED.

I guess the term "terrorist" is not the only term coined from modelling clay these days.

Yeah, no arrest here.


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[Dennis Hultman]

Mother speaks out. Rutherford Institute steps up to represent son.

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[Dennis Hultman]

Brandon Raub speaks out from psych ward



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[Dennis Hultman]

Marine who served with Brandon Raub testifies to his sanity

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[Metachrosis]

8:10 :thumbsup:

Brandon Raub speaks out from psych ward



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[JColt]

Ok out off all the people who post such things, why is he targeted? He had to have touched some one with a little pull.

[crotalusadamanteus]

My first order of business is to thank Dennis Hultman for doing some digging and saving me the effort. I have very little free time these days, and that which you managed to find is a huge help to me. Thank You sir!

I've said all I'm going to about the defense fund. If you can see it in your heart to donate $5 or $10 towards this cause, then do so. If not, then don't. Simple as that. But I'll not entertain the idea that it's some sort of scam, because to be quite frank, that is exactly how it is coming across. The number $10,000 is a number generated by the software as a potential goal, nothing more. To see more into it then that...well, maybe you should be the one in the psych ward. NOBODY said it will cost that much, NOBODY said it is going to take that much to defend him. This donation fund was created by his mom at the suggestion of a Nationwide group of people, who I trust with my life, and who will gladly sacrifice life and limb to ensure that this sort of injustice does not happen to YOU or YOUR family for future generations. I'll not touch upon that subject any further. Take it for what it is. Thank You.

Joe, because if they can do this and get away with it, then it sends a message to service members and civilians alike, that they may be next. This is nothing more then Psyops. Psychological warfare for those who don't understand military terminology. Troops see this, civies see this, and it gets into their heads. It's an effort by a rogue government to keep them from speaking out about the truth of why we are really there. What the fed fails to see is, some of us were also trained in this technique, and we just ain't falling for it. Some of us know better, we see through the lies. We are not afraid.

You have been deceived by your government. The proof is out there. Do your own searching, I've spent countless hours verifying things. 911 was orchestrated by this gov and others. They knew they could start a war with the blessing of the people if "terrorist" hit something close to home. Simple as that. Do your research. The targets of the war are the same countries that have their own monetary system, and do not play the fiat game. Look it up and find out for yourself. FACT. Nanothermite residue was found all over ground zero, in EVERY sample taken. FACT. It's only made here in the US and only by 2 manufacturers. FACT. Tower 7 fell in 15 seconds. FACT. It was NOT struck by a plane. FACT. Pictures are on the net of beams that were sliced with shaped charges used to demolish buildings, while fire fighters still scramble in the background to try saving people. FACT. A group of 2000 engineers and architects say the buildings fell too fast, building 7 shouldn't have fallen at all, and have petitioned congress to re-investigate the whole ordeal, looking this time at the FACTS, and not the manufactured evidence provided by the fed.

And now a decorated Marine vet speaks about the truth, and they violate his rights to make an example of him.

But please, most importantly, don't take it from me....DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, AND QUIT BELIEVING WHAT THE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR MEDIA TELL YOU. The proof is out there. This is the real reason behind the Patriot act, NDAA and CISPA. Now the feds have the power to make evidence disappear from the net, to conduct warrant-less searches of your private posts and property, to detain you indefinitely without charge. ALL OF WHICH IS AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION.

And trust me, I would LOVE to be the nut case conspiracy theorist in the end, but I just highly doubt that will ever come to be. Too much evidence is out there staring the people right in the face. We are on a fast track to a full blown police state. They even went so far as to create laws to make what they plan legal in their eyes, no matter how contrary it is to the constitution. (pop quiz...which other historical figure did the same thing before he tried to wipe out an entire ethnic group?) They are all guilty of treason simply by creating laws that contradict the same constitution they swore an oath to preserve, honor, and defend.

This young Marine Vet does not deserve what they have done to him and his family. YOU or I could be next. And THAT is the message I am trying to send to you.

[crotalusadamanteus]

More proof of whats to come. Wait until you get to the bottom of the article.

http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2012/08/ap-virginia-guardsman-faces-terrorism-charge-west-virginia-082112/?fb_comment_id=fbc_10151021595623595_22969488_1015 1022675278595#f10e4cb83c

[Lucille]

The number $10,000 is a number generated by the software as a potential goal, nothing more.
That is not the way this should have been approached. If a specific number is requested, it should be for something, not just a software generated request. I think most people (myself included) do not mind helping out when they can, but if a specific goal is sought, then there should be a reason. Whenever money is in the balance, it is better for everyone to know what it is going to be used for.This is not directed toward this specific case either, when the government says it needs a zillion dollars for a new plane, I think they should explain exactly why it is needed and give an expense breakdown.


young Marine Vet does not deserve what they have done to him and his family. YOU or I could be next. And THAT is the message I am trying to send to you.

I agree with the message you are sending that we all are at risk and freedom should never be taken for granted. I appreciate that you posted here.

[JColt]

It's not about the donation to me. I do it all the time. The last one was for Aaron Pauling. I want to hear what the final verdict is myself. Could there be info we are not privy to yet? If he is indeed being railroaded then for sure I would help. Right now though he is not charged with anything and being evaluated.

[WebSlave]

Could someone please remind me about what it was (or is) about Communism that was bad enough for America to send it's troops off to foreign lands to fight against it? :shrug01:

[Snake-Queen]

This is just so FUBAR!

[Dennis Hultman]

More proof of whats to come. Wait until you get to the bottom of the article.

http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2012/08/ap-virginia-guardsman-faces-terrorism-charge-west-virginia-082112/?fb_comment_id=fbc_10151021595623595_22969488_1015 1022675278595#f10e4cb83c

"Martinsburg police discovered after they arrested Alemar that the gun he was carrying fires pellets, not live rounds."


So he wasn't carrying anything against the law. It was just his appearance.

Yet when they raided his home they found

"A search of Alemar’s home found additional military equipment, which police seized as evidence."

other military equipment that they seized as evidence.


William Alemar is assigned to the Virginia National Guard’s Company B, 3rd Battalion, 116th Infantry Brigade Combat Team in Woodstock, Va., according to West Virginia National Guard spokesman Lt. Col. David Lester.

Alemar deployed to Iraq from July 1 to Dec. 6, 2011, Lester said, and was assigned to Task Force 183 for convoy security duty.

Hmm, he is a guardsman, I wonder what he would be doing with military equipment. :rolleyes:

[Shadera]

Speaking of the OathKeepers (of which I am one), and how they're a trustworthy organization...

Ask someone over there what happened to the $17k+ (last I looked, might have ultimately been much more) that was donated for Mr. Bodeker and what happened to their uproar over that story. No one says a word now. I gave a hundred bucks to that fund, because the OathKeeper organization said we should help. To not answer questions about updates and refuse to speak of it any longer is a slap in the face to those who gave, and were genuinely worried for Ren.

To say that someone belongs in a psycho ward because they're questioning these guys is just WRONG. They've gotten the last dime outta me, membership or otherwise. I'm just not enough of a yes-man conspiracy nutjob to fit in over there, because I always will question those who are outraged, raise a large amount of money, and then mysteriously shut up.

[crotalusadamanteus]

Shadera, although I am an Oathkeeper as well, that is not the group I refer to in my previous post. The group of people I speak of has a chain of command, and I'd trust them more so then OK org. My group are guardians of the republic, not lobbyists like OK has become. Sorry if my post misled anyone.

As for your question...that is news to me. I do wish to know though, as i also contributed a little to that cause. And if some funds have not been accounted for, I would like to know more. Feel free to PM or email me, and I'll poke around and ask some folks. I rarely post over at OK anymore, because they are just too timid for me. I'm more like a lets get er done and quit talking about it sort of person, and don't really fit in over there.

Speaking of the OathKeepers (of which I am one), and how they're a trustworthy organization...

Ask someone over there what happened to the $17k+ (last I looked, might have ultimately been much more) that was donated for Mr. Bodeker and what happened to their uproar over that story. No one says a word now. I gave a hundred bucks to that fund, because the OathKeeper organization said we should help. To not answer questions about updates and refuse to speak of it any longer is a slap in the face to those who gave, and were genuinely worried for Ren.

To say that someone belongs in a psycho ward because they're questioning these guys is just WRONG. They've gotten the last dime outta me, membership or otherwise. I'm just not enough of a yes-man conspiracy nutjob to fit in over there, because I always will question those who are outraged, raise a large amount of money, and then mysteriously shut up.

[WebSlave]

Didn't communist Russia used to spirit political dissidents away to psyche wards to silence them? Seriously, exactly what IS different about the communists we were fearful of and sent troops off to fight against compared to what the USA has now become? When you speak of "enemies, foreign and domestic", what identifies someone as a "domestic enemy"?

[Shadera]

That's a good question. I'll use a story I read recently to give some contrast.

Back in '94 when I went through basic/ait, the MPs were barely taught how to handle EPWs (enemy prisoners of war). That's all we called them, and that's what was beaten into us to call them. Sure, there was some riot control stuff and swat team style urban warfare type stuff, but it was minimal at best.

Now they're training MPs to handle unruly crowds here in the US, with training scenarios to boot. To keep the herd in line when disaster, or perhaps something more sinister happens. It's being stressed that they not be referred to in any way as captives, and supposedly anyone who does not agree is free to leave. But let's look at what happened with Katrina.

I'm cynical and suspicious at best, but even I can't say I don't see what is coming at us with alarming speed.

[WebSlave]

Well, one thing is for certain. We can expect to be lied to about it, no matter what it may be. If the government tries to herd you into a bus, "for your own safety", I wouldn't believe a word of what they would be claiming as the reason. Why should they stop lying NOW?

[Metachrosis]

dont that just give you the warm fuzzies . . . . :ack2:

[crotalusadamanteus]

YES

http://www.businessinsider.com/lawyer-for-detained-marine-says-he-is-being-held-illegally-2012-8#ixzz24OCWrJMm

[Metachrosis]

SWEET!! now for the public media fallout :D

[JColt]

"According to court documents, a swift evaluation by social worker Michael Campbell determined Raub’s involuntary admission."

Nothing worse than having your fate decided by a low wage social worker.

[WebSlave]

"According to court documents, a swift evaluation by social worker Michael Campbell determined Raub’s involuntary admission."

Nothing worse than having your fate decided by a low wage social worker.

So the choice was either "voluntary admission" or "involuntary admission"?

Gee, that's special......

[crotalusadamanteus]

Well, looks like we have at least ONE honest judge in VA. Too bad they can't ALL uphold their oath of constitutionality.

I'm just glad he can be back with his family. Having been in direct contact with his mom, I know she was really stressing over this the first couple days.

[JColt]

So the choice was either "voluntary admission" or "involuntary admission"?

Gee, that's special......

I think those are only options you have, lol.

[crotalusadamanteus]

There is a third option. We'll see how many are up to the task when the time comes. I'd rather die fighting for freedom then live as a slave.

[JColt]

This kid got caught by a peanut gallery. Once he was in a true court of law he was released. I'm sure there are a lot of lawyers willing to take on a lawsuit on contingency. One good financial hammering will make the peanut gallery toe the line.

[Snake-Queen]

There is a third option. We'll see how many are up to the task when the time comes. I'd rather die fighting for freedom then live as a slave.

:iagree:

[Metachrosis]

The recent NYC shootings have FBI claiming no " non terrorist" in nature
yet . . . . . Colorado and other lessers are . . . . ?
http://www.infowars.com/veteran-declared-mentally-defective-has-guns-seized/

[bwt501]

The recent NYC shootings have FBI claiming no " non terrorist" in nature
yet . . . . . Colorado and other lessers are . . . . ?
http://www.infowars.com/veteran-declared-mentally-defective-has-guns-seized/

The NYC shooting involved a gunman that killed a coworker and was subsequently killed by police. All other gunshot victims were incidental to a 30 round gunfight in midtown manhattan during rush hour.

[crotalusadamanteus]

Along the lines of the original topic, Brandon and the guard member that was snatched...turns out they're not the only ones. If you are a veteran, and believe in the constitution and are patriotic, you could be next. Vets have been disappearing all over the country. An interview with the attorney that handled the Raub case...

http://theintelhub.com/2012/08/27/veterans-being-rounded-up-nationwide-people-everywhere-just-disappearing/


But I fear the problem may be greater than that. Call me a loon, but I fear WWIII is on the horizon. Don't mean to preach to anyone, but the book of Ezekiel describes to a T exactly what has been taking place in the sand box. Chapter 38 forward is what you'd look at. Understanding that GOG mentioned in this book is the ancient name of Russia and Persia is now called Iran. Earthquakes that all will feel, fire, brimstone...Sorta describes what nukes would bring to the world don't it. Russia has been stating a lot lately that they have new nukes, they warned the US not to get involved with Iran who also has nukes. We and the UK have nukes still as well. Every country over their wants Israel wiped out completely, and there we are right in the middle of it all. Read it..it's all eerily described in Ezekiel.

If you haven't started stock piling food, you better. Soon it will be a precious commodity. If you haven't made good with God, I'd advise you to do that as well if you believe in him.

[Durante]

I haven't commented on this post much but have been trying to follow to the best of my abilities. Brandon Raub was "arrested", "taken in to custody", or whatever you would like to call being "held" against your will & it was done for exercising his first amendment rights. These actions were done without warrant, considering no charges for a crime have been filed or will be. I'm confident he has a case for having his rights violated & being wrongful detained. I truly hope he persuades such if even only to make more in this country aware of our current situation & upcoming future, but doubt it will get the media attention needed. When & if option 3 does happen, don't look behind yourself to see who has your back, I'll be standing by your side.

[Metachrosis]

"Some" of the concern is with the back door supporters from the US funding weapons and the like to those against Israel,there by connecting the US which puts it into "coming against the land".
The US will then be under the sword mentioned in verse 21,No?




But I fear the problem may be greater than that. Call me a loon, but I fear WWIII is on the horizon. Don't mean to preach to anyone, but the book of Ezekiel describes to a T exactly what has been taking place in the sand box. Chapter 38 forward is what you'd look at. Understanding that GOG mentioned in this book is the ancient name of Russia and Persia is now called Iran. Earthquakes that all will feel, fire, brimstone...Sorta describes what nukes would bring to the world don't it. Russia has been stating a lot lately that they have new nukes, they warned the US not to get involved with Iran who also has nukes. We and the UK have nukes still as well. Every country over their wants Israel wiped out completely, and there we are right in the middle of it all. Read it..it's all eerily described in Ezekiel.

[Durante]

"Some" of the concern is with the back door supporters from the US funding weapons and the like to those against Israel,there by connecting the US which puts it into "coming against the land".
The US will then be under the sword mentioned in verse 21,No?

I don't read that deep into it generally. I believe much is vague enough to be debatable & opinions/believes could be discuses from both sides forever with no honest winner. I personally hope the funding contributes of "Some" in the US would not be enough to consider us "those against Israel" because the verse following is easier translated & doesn't sound fun for those guilty of them actions.

[Metachrosis]

Right,reading the rest of the prophesy in 39 doesnt rationally leave much wiggle room ;)

[WebSlave]

Hmm, as for the big guys lobbing nuclear weapons around, all it takes is for ANYONE to suddenly decide that they are at the "lose it or lose it" point, and the game is over with. Hell, even a misidentified meteorite with an unfortunate trajectory could trigger the balloon going up.

Stocking up food? Why? Do you have a cave you can hole up in with enough completely isolated or filtered resources to live there for YEARS? Hell, it would be a fortunate kindness to have the first nuclear missile hit you right square on the head. The kind of future likely after something like that is really not anything attractive, much less survivable, to most people.

[crotalusadamanteus]

The food stores are for the havoc that will ensue BEFORE it reaches that state. There are already shortages of many things at this stage. Certain meds for one. Both military and civilian medics have started using morphine again due to lack of the alternative. Just one example. When SHTF and people take to rioting, pilaging and such, that's what the food stores are for. Not to mention ammo for when the thugs come to take what they think they deserve to have.

Better to be prepared then unprepared. Just saying.

[Durante]

The food stores are for the havoc that will ensue BEFORE it reaches that state. There are already shortages of many things at this stage. Certain meds for one. Both military and civilian medics have started using morphine again due to lack of the alternative. Just one example. When SHTF and people take to rioting, pilaging and such, that's what the food stores are for. Not to mention ammo for when the thugs come to take what they think they deserve to have.

Better to be prepared then unprepared. Just saying.

I know a world war was mentioned but I took the idea of stocking up on food as reference to a different kind of war. Hate to admit it but I may be labeled as "thug" when that time comes. The truth is I don't want to watching my family die hungry, I'm not going to starve, & ammo takes up less space then food if you get my meaning.

[Shadera]

Better to be prepared then unprepared. Just saying.

Pinpoint accuracy out to the perimeter of my property and beyond, and I practice weekly. :thumbsup:

I wonder where the doomsday clock is perched right now?

[Dennis Hultman]

I know a world war was mentioned but I took the idea of stocking up on food as reference to a different kind of war. Hate to admit it but I may be labeled as "thug" when that time comes. The truth is I don't want to watching my family die hungry, I'm not going to starve, & ammo takes up less space then food if you get my meaning.

Regardless of anything else if you believe something is going to happen and all you are doing is stocking up on ammo and nothing else you are going to be in for a rude awakening. There are a lot of people prepping with both because they know there will be people like you.

I love my family too and I wouldn't let them suffer but I will not cause suffering onto others that do me no harm. I would eat every snake I have and make a meal out of a ant mound first. People like what you stated you would do, I would have no trouble dropping like flies.

If there ever was a world without rule of law there is enough like-minded people like myself that I would hope people like you would be put down quickly. :thumbsup:

[Lucille]

I am really shocked that there are those who would plan to kill as an alternative to planning and saving now :(

[WebSlave]

Seems like a simple enough solution. Plan on killing any trespassers, and then eating them. They will probably taste like chicken with the right seasoning....... :hehe:

So stock up on bullets and LOTS of seasoning.

[Metachrosis]

Props to those already equally balanced and READY!

[Durante]

I am really shocked that there are those who would plan to kill as an alternative to planning and saving now :(

if you believe something is going to happen and all you are doing is stocking up on ammo and nothing else you are going to be in for a rude awakening.

I think I may have written that wrong or was misunderstood so I'll try to explain my thoughts better. I never said or meant for it to sound like all I was are doing is stocking up on ammo and nothing else. I don't have no deep desire to hurt anyone but I can't & will not honestly say that when there is no food available which will eventually happen in that situation (probably faster then you think) that I will not resort to animal instincts & take whatever I can, even if it's another living person to eat. Sure a few folks might save but there are thousands that don't & will need to eat. I honestly think a bullet will be way more valuable then can of corn during that period. I understand it's not a pretty picture everyone wants to think about or admit certain things too.

Lets be honest here. Besides the law being mentioned I heard I would eat this or that first. (Dennis I'm not trying to single you out here) I think man's law will be the least of anyone's worry at that point & what happens when this & that you been eating is gone? Are you seriously going to sit in a circle & watch your loved ones die. Your going to have to "put down" someone down because chances are folks will not be visiting to bring you desert. It will be a lot easier to do with a bullet then a potato which at that point I'm sure your not going to waste.

I think the mistake of placing to much faith in others is what would have put us in the position from the start. I honestly don't believe that with very minimum amounts of food left, that cant be replaced for your family, will be shared with a starving stranger.

The bottom line is saying I would not do this or that on a full belly is easy. I don't think its fair for anyone to say what your capable of when your not currently in that situation. If it makes me an evil person to do whatever is needed for my family & personal survival I rather live with that guilt then die hungry after watching my family starve.

Everyone is welcome to have an opinion on anything, even on what you think of me but please don't try to categorize me with anyone good or bad due to a single statement, especially one that may have been worded incorrectly or taken wrong. I am trying to be truthful as possible & I truly do apologize if I upset anyone with my comments. They were not made to be taken as a personal treat to anyone or to offend anyone.

[Metachrosis]

Dont sweat it,some here excel at hyper dramatization :rolleyes_
Im sure your content with your priorities dont let a public forum dilute you.

:thumbsup:


I truly do apologize if I upset anyone with my comments. They were not made to be taken as a personal treat to anyone or offend anyone.

[Dennis Hultman]

Yeah, sorry if I took that post the wrong way.

Hate to admit it but I may be labeled as "thug" when that time comes. The truth is I don't want to watching my family die hungry, I'm not going to starve, & ammo takes up less space then food if you get my meaning.

You plan on stocking up on ammo and no food (because it takes up to much room), you wouldn't let your family die and you would be considered a thug.

Sorry if I got the wrong impression that you would be out robbing, stealing and killing people to survive. I have no idea how I could have drawn that conclusion or image of a "thug".

If it wasn't for the thug part I would of thought, hunting bartering, etc etc. with extra ammo or rendering protection and services to a group. Having a skill set.

Lets be honest here. Besides the law being mentioned I heard I would eat this or that first. (Dennis I'm not trying to single you out here) I think man's law will be the least of anyone's worry at that point & what happens when this & that you been eating is gone? Are you seriously going to sit in a circle & watch your loved ones die. Your going to have to "put down" someone down because chances are folks will not be visiting to bring you desert. It will be a lot easier to do with a bullet then a potato which at that point I'm sure your not going to waste.


I didn't state anything about not putting anyone down or being a pacifist. Actually I stated the opposite. I believe in nonaggression unless aggressed upon. I stated nothing about not protecting yourself or what is yours. If you came for my potato you'll get a whole lot more than you bargained for.

All you stated was you would have lots of ammo and would be considered a thug. So I figured you would be the guy coming to take my potato. If you are coming to trade some of that ammo or service, then I might just let you have that potato if it is worth it.

The whole thing about eating this or that is a fact with me. My children and myself have already eaten all kinds of bugs and whatnot. Wife doesn't, she doesn't eat any animal products. Anyway to add to that point one should really get to know your area. There are so many foods sources around that nobody considers. In my area there are so many plants and different flowers available all year long that people have no idea that are edible. My kids know them and have eaten many. I practice what I preach.

No, I'm not going to stick gun in anyone's face and demand their potato and let their kids parish while mine survive. I would show them how to survive if I could. Of course if they are the aggressor then that's another story. I'll have a extra potato or two.

[crotalusadamanteus]

A man is not much of a man if he cannot adhere to basic laws of humanity. I don't mean written laws either, but the laws of what is right and wrong.

[Durante]

Dont sweat it,some here excel at hyper dramatization :rolleyes_ Im sure your content with your priorities dont let a public forum dilute you.
:thumbsup:

I'm content & can live with my own thoughts. I feel it's fair for me to share my current opinions or thoughts within the guidelines/rules set for site like everyone else. I want for others to express there right to disagree with me especially when they state why the have different view. I learn a lot from these forums especially when discussions remain civil. I cant force anyone to do anything but hope that if its clear my intent isn't to be disrespectful to anyone that I will get treated the same way so that everyone is willing to continue the conversation.

************************************************** *******

Dennis, I finished my post with "if you get my meaning" which I still believe you dont for the terms I used in the way I meant them. I labeled "thug" in quotes to address similarities to the was Rich used it in his post & when I said when that time comes I'm referring to when nothing is left but to live. I also never stated I only believe in stocking up only on ammo & no food in my post, but did stress the importance I feel one has over the other & that's just an opinion of mine.

Yeah, sorry if I took that post the wrong way.

I'm not sure if your being sarcastic with the above post. I have read many of your post & agree with a majority of them but if your opinion in regards to me is bad & already set in stone, then I'm sorry you feel that way & will not bother continuing to attempt expressing what I meant. Maybe you already know what I meant & just disagree, either way it's fine. I have no hard feelings & hope you dont either.

A man is not much of a man if he cannot adhere to basic laws of humanity. I don't mean written laws either, but the laws of what is right and wrong.
Rich as I'm sure your aware I value what you think because I've come to you requesting your opinion more then once. I think I understand what you mean by the basic laws of humanity. The problem I have is with no government, no laws, no religion, & no systems in place... are we that much different then animals who follow laws of nature where right & wrong dont exist. I know humans have intelligence, love, etc that separate us from animals & hope your right & it's enough to keep our humanity over the evil in us too

[Dennis Hultman]

It was meant a little sarcastic because I thought you meant it the way I took it.

No impression is set in stone. This is just all talk and giving opinion on something that has not happened yet. As of now, this is just hypothetical talk. If I did misunderstand then I apologize. You are still not taking my potato. :D

but I might give it to you...

[Dennis Hultman]

I think I understand what you mean by the basic laws of humanity. The problem I have is with no government, no laws, no religion, & no systems in place... are we that much different then animals who follow laws of nature where right & wrong dont exist.

There have been plenty of times in history that the same type of scenario has played out. No or little government, none to enforce laws.

Religion (whatever it might be) will always find a way to stay and systems develop quickly. More people will take advantage and more savagery will be displayed but through all of recorded history there are those that retained their "humanity" and always will. There will always be some kind of system that will be developed on whatever level even if small.

[Durante]

It was meant a little sarcastic because I thought you meant it the way I took it.

No impression is set in stone. This is just all talk and giving opinion on something that has not happened yet. As of now, this is just hypothetical talk. If I did misunderstand then I apologize. You are still not taking my potato. :D

but I might give it to you...

After reading it over I can easily see how it could be taken differently then I meant it. If you look at a lot of my post (as long as no one comments after me) you'll see I edit them because I have trouble writing what I'm trying to get across. I admit I was saying it to express how I wouldn't be an angel in a certain situation but didn't consider while writing how much it could make me look like a blood thirsty psycho to people also. I guess I'm just as much at fault as anyone for the misunderstanding. If & when that time comes I will happily accept your potato if offer stands & will share my can of corn with you. :thumbsup:

[Lucille]

After reading it over I can easily see how it could be taken differently then I meant it.

Sometimes when people miswrite a thought they get all tied up in defending the miswrite, instead of taking time to clarify what they really meant like you chose to do. Hopefully, it really was a miswrite.

[Durante]

There have been plenty of times in history that the same type of scenario has played out. No or little government, none to enforce laws.

Religion (whatever it might be) will always find a way to stay and systems develop quickly. More people will take advantage and more savagery will be displayed but through all of recorded history there are those that retained their "humanity" and always will. There will always be some kind of system that will be developed on whatever level even if small.

I'm not sure exactly how far back in history your talking about but I might be a little young to honestly comment on them past similar scenarios. I'm assuming since we have systems in place now it's safe to take your word. The few years I been on earth I found many things dont end happily ever after & the good guy doesn't always win like in the movies, it's actually nice to hear that sometimes in real life it does happen.

[crotalusadamanteus]

It's easy to take the written word out of context when it's not accompanied by tone of voice and/or facial expression. Although I am a kind person at heart, and killing is the last thing I would ever want to do again, I assure you, under the right circumstances, I will be as savage and brutal as one can possibly be.

[Shadera]

You don't have to stockpile just ammo. Prepping isn't just about hoarding food. It's about picking up skillsets that will allow you and your family to survive in a post-government world. Self-sufficiency. Gardening, foraging, survival, raising animals for food, fixing things on your own, etc, all fall into that category. You can feed your family, and take care of your family with no worry about being dependent on someone else.

No one of us is going to survive indefinitely after this all goes down. We need to band together with those we trust, so that we can form solid little communities that take care of each others' needs until some sort of order can be established. Security, food, comfort, etc.

Look into it some if you care to. You just might find someone nearby that you can band up with that'll show you how to grow your own potatoes, then your family need never go hungry, and you need not risk your life to take from someone else. Because living like that, someone *will* eventually outgun you. And then what for your family?

Just some things to think about. I'll not derail the thread further with my ramblings. :)

[Dennis Hultman]

It's about picking up skillsets :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Metachrosis]

To many generations now "have to" aquire skills,that were once common parenting practices into the later 70's.