Venomoids?

[Darin Chappell]

I have no interest in having venomoids or venomous animals in my collection, but I am curious about a couple of things.

1.  Is it ethical to surgically alter animals for the sole purpose of being able to handle previously dangerous animals?  (Is this the same ethically as gelding a horse so as to make it more docile?)

2.  Are the alterations completely safe? (for the animals and its handlers)

3.  Is it ethical to sell breeding pairs of venomoids knowing full-well that those babies will come out hot?

Just some thoughts I had about this practice that I would like to throw out for everyone else's consideration.  I have no real opinions formed about any of this, but I am certainly inclined toward not forcing surgery on any animal to eliminate a characteristic that is inherent to the animal in question.  It would be, I think, a bit like removing the eyes of an eagle to keep it from flying away.

I'd appreciate any other thoughts --

[franklinedwards60]

I believe alot of people will buy a venmoid so as to get used to handleing the animals so incase they were to get bit if wouldn't be life threating. Once they have the experince of handling these animals then they most likly get into hots.

Just what I'm thinking. I'm prettyr sure Floyd will be able to explain better. Sense he does sell them. Frank

[BEN SPARKS]

WELL,
AS FAR AS THE BREEDING QUESTION, SOMEONE WOULD HAVE
TO BE EXTREMELY IGNORANT TO THINK THE BABIES WOULD
NOT COME OUT HOT. IF THEY WERE THAT IGNORANT THEY PROBABLY WOULDNT HAVE MUCH LUCK IN BREEDING ANYWAY.
AS FOR COMPARING APPLES TO APPLES ON ETHICS, HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE A DECLAWED CAT IN THEIR HOUSE? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE WHAT-SO-EVER IN THE TWO.  EVER HAVE A DOG OR CAT NEUTERED OR SPAYED? - EXACT SAME THING ,IF YOU ARE ALTERING THE BODY OF THE ANIMAL. I DONT KNOW HOW RISKY THE SERGERY IS TO THE SNAKE;HOWEVER, DOGS AND CATS ARE SOMETIMES LOST WHILE GETTING SPAYED OR NEUTERED.
 WELP, THATS MY .02$

GOD BLESS TO ALL!!!
BEN SPARKS
C.R.C - CHRISTIAN REPTILE CENTER <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[LadyChaos]

I'd have to disagree with comparing a spay or neuter to a declaw. A declawing procedure does *nothing* for the cat...causes it a lot of pain because someone was not patient enough to work with the animal or trim it's claws. A spay in particular often saves a dog, sometimes a cat from uterine infections later in life...which happen whether or not the animal was ever bred. Neutering a dog can cut back on some health issues, but is usually done to help cut back on behaviors and roaming horny animals helping to produce more animals.

now comparing a declaw to a fang or gland removal is right on...it's an alteration that's done because we have the knowledge...doesn't mean it should be done. Ear and tail docking is another unnecessary surgery that comes to mind.

[EMERALDGUY33]

Myself, I am openly opposed to venomoids. Venomous animals were never meant to be kept as &quot;handlable&quot; pets. And yes, there is actual documented and scientific evidence of the detrimental effects of producing a venomoid. Right off hand, I can't recall exactly where I read it. I'll keep looking and post it as soon as I find it.

[BEN SPARKS]

YOU ARE RIGHT NICOLE, I SHOULD HAVE LEFT OFF THE SPAY/NEUTER COMPARISON.
NOW AS FAR AS THE COMMENT THAT VENOMOUS HERPS WHERE NEVER INTENDED TO BE KEPT AS PETS, I DONT FOLLOW. DO YOU MEAN THAT GOD MEANT FOR BALLS TO BE
KEPT AS PETS, BUT NOT RATTLERS ??

GOD BLESS
BEN

[EMERALDGUY33]

Good point, Ben. Obviously, no living creature was meant to be kept as &quot;pets&quot;. However, non-venomous snakes are being kept in large nmbers. Though you may get bit, you will live regardless. Given, larger constrictors can kill under extreme circumstances. Yet proper education, handling techniques, and husbandry can greatly reduce that risk. Regarding &quot;hots&quot;, the risk for death from bite is very high. That is one of the reasons they are not available to the general population at large. Even the best of herpetologists have been bitten and died from venomous reptile bites. I should have clarified my statement though. Venomous reptiles should not be kept as ordinary household pets. The ramifications from even one mishap can be potentially very tragic. I feel only very trained and capable herpers should keep and care for these beautiful creatures. In fact, I am very passionate about venomous snakes. However, I do not feel they should be kept anyone who feels like having one. A great deal of common sense needs to be employed. That was one he!! of a point, Ben. One I had not thought of as of the time I posted last. Thanks. Hope I was able to clarify further.

[skaggszoo]

Any surgery to an animal can be difficult for them. Some operations (like spay/neuter) are benificial and serve an actual purpose. Others like venom gland removal, seem senseless. It is right up there with defanging and declawing large cats as pets. If you are not willing to take on the responsibility and risks of the Whole animal and its needs then you probably sould not own it. There are some truely spectacular hots I would love to own. However I do not feel I am educated or experienced enough to keep them. For people with the expertese, I think hots are just as legitimate to keep as boas or any other reptile. I think you should have to have permits and possibly some type of profession handling experience before keeping them in a private collection however. Lets not give the HSUS any fuel to toss on the fire. Everyone please herp responsibly.
Sacha Skaggs

[BEN SPARKS]

POINTS VERY WELL MADE SACHA AND JOHN,
HERES MY DELIMA.

AT MY HOUSE A HAVE A 4 YEAR OLD SON WHO IS WAY TO FEARLESS WHEN IT COMES TO SNAKES. LAST WEEK WE HAD
A RACER IN THE BACK YARD ABOUT 3' LONG OR SO. UP TO THIS POINT I HAD ALOUD HIM TO CATCH WORM SNAKES, RINGNECKS, AND EARTHSNAKES. I THOUGHT MAYBE THIS WOULD CURVE HIS CONFIDENCE IF IT WAS TO WILEY TO CATCH. I TOLD HIM OKAY SO HE PROCEEDED TO PICK IT UP.
AS HE DID IT WIGGLED VIOLANTLY AND IT DIDNT BOTHER HIM IN THE LEAST. IT THEN &quot;LATCHED&quot; ONTO HIS WRIST. AT THIS POINT MOST ALL 4 Y/OS WOULD BE SCARED OR CRYING.
BUT MY BOY JUST GOT THIS GRITTY LOOK ON HIS FACE AND
TOOK THE NIP IN STRIDE AND NEVER MISSED A BEAT!! NOW I
KNOW I MIGHT GET FLAMED FOR ALLOWING HIM TO DO THIS
BUT WITH THE NUMBER OF SNAKES WE HAVE IN THE WILD AROUND HERE , COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT HE SEEMS TO ALWAYS FORGET THAT I TELL HIM TO NEVER PICK UP A SNAKE TILL &quot;DADDY SAYS ITS OKAY&quot;, I THOUGHT A GOOD NIP
MIGHT CURVE HIS CONFIDENCE. UNFORTUNELTY IT DIDNT, IF
NOTHING ELSE IT JUST RE-ENFORCED IT AND REGRET LETTING
HIM DO IT.
BEARING THIS IN MIND, I WOULDNT FEEL COMFORTABLE HAVING A VENOMOUS SNAKE IN THE SAME HOUSE WITH HIM.
HOWEVER I LIKE THEM SO MUCH THAT A VENOMOID SEEMS
LIKE THE ONLY SOLUTION, FOR NOW ANYWAY.
MAYBE SOME OF YOU HAVE BEEN IN A SIMILAR SITUATION AND IF YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE
HEARING IT.

GOD BLESS
BEN@C.R.C. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[Darin Chappell]

Ben,

I appreciate you dilemma. &nbsp;I too have a four-year-old boy who is completely unafraid of snakes. &nbsp;I'm afraid that if he found a copperhead (the Ozarks are full of them), and I wasn't around, he might just pick it up as quickly as he does my corns! &nbsp;I also understand your attraction to venomous species. &nbsp;

However, wouldn't the bite of a fanged snake be dangerous to a small child whether venom was injected or not? &nbsp;Not that you would keep these, but a gaboon's bite would hurt no matter what the venom possibilities. &nbsp;I wouldn't expose my boy to such animals even if I knew with 100% certainty that they were dry.

If I were you, I think I would just wait until he's older. &nbsp;That way, may both of you will share the same hobby together?

Just my thoughts -- Darin

[BEN SPARKS]

YEP, THATS THE MAIN PROBLEM HERE-COPPERHEADS.
I HAVE THE PLEASURE OF SPENDING LAST EASTER (2001) IN
HOSPTIAL DUE TO A BITE I GOT THE DAY BEFORE WHILE CUTTING WOOD. I FOUND 13 WITHIN 300' OF MY HOUSE LAST
YEAR INCLUDING THAT ONE. WE HAVE A WILDLIFE PRESERVE
ABOUT 4 MILES AWAY WHERE WE RELEASE THEM. HOWEVER,
I MUST SAY I WOULD RATHER TAKE A BIT FROM THE COPPERHEAD (SHORT THE VENOM <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> THAN TAKE ONE FROM A
5' RED-TAIL OR BLOOD PYTHON. THE COPPERHEAD JUST FELT
LIKE A QUICK PRICK, DIDNT HURT AT ALL (FOR 30 SECONDS OR SO). TAKING A HIT OFF OF A BOID IN COMPARISON, TO ME
IS MUCH MORE PAINFULL, AND USUALLY ALOT BLOODIER.
EITHER WAY MY SON WOULDNT BE HANDLING EITHER. OUR BOIDS ARE LOCKED AWAY EXCPET FOR HIS PET BALL. IF WE HAD A VENOMOID HE WOULD NEVER HANDLE IT, ITS JUST THAT &quot;REMOTE CHANCE&quot; OF ESCAPE THAT I ALWAYS THINK ABOUT. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

GOD BLESS!!
BEN@C.R.C.

[franklinedwards60]

As to children. Boys will be boys. I have a 4 and 7 year old that love to help take care of the reptiles. Some day I would like to own some hots myself. But I would want a Venomoid first. Just because yes I can go and help someone who owns hots to learn to handle them and take care of them but I would also like to handle them at my home to get more experience before I aquire a hot.

As to kids it is best to teach them everything we know.