Michael Moore

[SpindleHead]

I can't believe this joker. I could care less about his politics and I understand he has a book or movie he wants to plug but his comments are so totally off base that I truly hope everyone shows their disapproval by not buying the book or seeing the movie.

In case you didn't hear what he said here it is. I am paraphrasing here but you'll get the point. He stated that all of the people who support our war in Iraq deserve to have their sons or daughters killed over there! that scumbag, I wish someone would shove a scud missile up his A$$. Jerk. Thing is those sons and daughters who are risking their lives are doing so so that losers like him can spout all of their BS.

Please do not support this guy, he's not deserving of any respect. People like him make me sick.

Chris

[TurtleManiac24]

I agree, he DEFINITELY goes overboard. However I did have to see his film for a class, and it wasn't as bad as you might think. I understand your point, but also he does have one of his own. I didn't agree with everything in the movie, but I do think he raises some good issues to think about.

I don't know much else about the man except that there was quite a fuss over his appearance on the movie awards or something. I don't think what he did was in good taste, and I do think he is quite set in his ways and most likely in poor judgement in some areas.

But I must advocate that there is still such a thing as freedom of speech, so he technically is allowed his voice. Even protestors of the war are allowed to speak up. I just am hoping you're not one of the people that tells protestors in general to "sit down and shut up," since I've met some people like that and it annoys me a great deal. But I do agree that Michael Moore tends not to voice his opinion(s) in a very nice way, which upsets a lot of people. To tell you the truth I'm not a big fan of the guy myself.

[Ken Harbart]

I'm rather looking forward to this movie...

http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/images/MMHAPosterforWeb2.jpg

A trailer for the film can be seen here (http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/secrettrailer.html).

[SpindleHead]

Turtlemaniac,
I see your point but there are some things that are way beyond just being controversial. He crossed the line with that remark. Those soldiers don't get to choose if the fight or not. Blame the politicians not the troops.

Chris Marston

[eric adrignola]

I used to be a big fan of him. TV nation while being a political crapfest, was one of the funniest shows EVER. I loved "roger and ME", I thought it was also hilarious, in that it showed the truth in such a dark-yet-funny way...
Until I found out that the Facts in Roger and Me were not really facts at all, just like the "facts" presented as "Facts" in columbine.

I STILL think he's funny, which REALLY pisses me off, because I find him to be disgustingly anti-american...

[Nefarion]

*EDITED OUT*

[Ken Harbart]

Actually, Michael Moore tells it like it isn't, which is where the problem lies.


I just got done reading Dude Where's My Country for the third time. It raises some very interesting facts.
Ah yes, those "facts" on pp xiii, 9, 15-16, 17-19, 20, 23, 43 (as well as pretty much the rest of Chapter 2), 53, 58, 67, 69, 74-75, 82, 110, 111-112, 160, 180... which are not actually facts.

Watch bowling for columbine as well... very good documentary that gets its point accross perfectly.
You mean the fictional piece, "Bowling for Columbine"? In this film. Moore relies heavily, on staged scenes, distortion of facts, outright lies, as well as some very creative editing.

http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/michael_moores_next_gig.jpg

[eric adrignola]

That's the problem--I used to think that he was "teling it like it is." I then did some research, and I realized that he wasn't. In some instances, he fabricated things entirely, and portrayed them as fact, or compiled several snippets of fragments of facts, and portrayed them as one entire truth.

Bowling for columbine was disgusting, because it has SOME people actually thinking that this was the truth. Several instances I remember: He took parts of several speeches heston made, cut out ALL of his references to the columbine incident(where he acknowledged and remembered the victims), and switched it around, changing the meanings of his words. He then presented it as if it was all one speech, at one event.

He claims that the company makes "ballistic Missles" right there, next door. When in fact, they take old ballistic missle boosters, and convert them to launch sattelites. But since the company that did this ALSO made ballistic missles, he wasn't "lying" by saying that they made them, and that they were in the same town, insinuating that they "made them right there."

So many manipulating of the facts in order to attack certain people/cultures/etc.

I took a sociology class a few years back where they actually USED his movies as a TEACHING implement! They took a satirical docu-comedy, composed of erroneous, and some downright false information, and taught it as fact, in order to demonstrate the "evils" of capitalism, and how it leads to economic restructering, which is, according to this class THE ( as in the only ) cause for poverty, homelessness, cultural/economic decay& crime. Yup. GM pulling out of Flint michigan is the same process that has lead to ALL POVERTY in the US. Evil Capitalist company pulls out of a community to compete in a global market--oh, wait, it's for profit, greed, not to stay in buisness, silly me! And that's T H E cause for poverty.

If someone stands AGAINST certain values and principles that I consider to be at the core of American culture, I will call them Anti-American. The Capitalistic nature of our free market and the right to keep and bear arms are two of those values, and Moore is consistently working against them.

[Nefarion]

*EDITED OUT*

[TurtleManiac24]

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

This is an interesting site. I had always thought of everything Moore said in Bowling as fact too. However, this site makes some really eye-opening charges against his "facts." I haven't done my own real research yet, but I hope to soon.
I, too, took a class where I had to see this film. I am going to find as much information as I can and hopefully speak to my old professor about whether or not it ought to be used as a teaching implement.
Thanks for making me question what he said. I thought things smelled a little "fishy" from the way they were portrayed in the movie, but he condenses it all into such a short period of time that I didn't really give it a second thought. Now I want to find out for myself if I'm right or wrong to think that his "facts" may not be the truth at all.
What hit me from the movie was that Moore did seem to sort of just "spring" the interview on Heston. I am not condoning anything Heston may have said and/or done, but I'm saying that it just seemed strange how Moore kept bugging him after he had already said he didn't know about the girl's death, and that he no longer wished to speak to Moore.
Anyway, it's something to think about, especially now that I'm all done with my undergrad studies.

[Ken Harbart]

You mean the huge rocket sitting behind Mr. Moore, with the label "US AIRFORCE"? ... Yeah... that really just a weather satellite... mmm hmmm.
Apparently you don't get out much. Lockheed does indedd manufacture rockets to transport satellites into orbit. Since the USAF is typically responsible for these launches, their name is going to be on the rocket.

And this is a quote from one of Lockheeds spokesmen:
"They (the rockets sitting behind him) carry mainly very large national security satellites, some we can't talk about."
And this could be construed to be just about anything, including GPS. It does nothing to support Moore's claims that WMD are manufactured there.

Of course there is going to be editing in the film... But I believe its all solid. Every single time anyone brings up a specific issue about it, I can research it in depth and come to find out they are wrong.
Maybe in some alternate universe, but this is the real world. BTW, since you're gullible enough to think that Moore's honest, I've got some oceanfront property in Kansas that I'm looking to sell.

We can begin with the title of the movie. Moore claims that, "the title is taken from the little-known fact that the two killers, Dylan and Eric, were at a bowling class at Columbine High School on the morning of the murders." Problem is, they weren't, according to school officials and law enforcement.

North Country Bank & Trust... Moore makes it seem as if one can walk in, open an account, and walk out with a free long gun. Alas, this scene was staged. If a customer passes the FBI background check, they still don't get a long gun right then and there.

Hunting dog video... staged (and quite badly, I might add).

Moore's assertion that Timothy McVeigh & Terry Nichols attended Michigan Militia meetings... but conveniently forgets to mention that both men were kicked out due to their extremist views.

The blind gun owner... Moore's ridiculing of a handicapped person is to be expected. Once again, Moore fails to tell the whole story, however. Carey McWilliams is not totally blind, and had to prove his ability before receiving a ccw.

"Wonderful World" montage... A good bit of spin and revisionist history. Nothing more.

B-52 Vietnam plaque... Moore's claim: "The plaque underneath it proudly proclaims that this plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve 1972." The truth: The plaque states that this was one of two B-52s that was able to shoot down a Mig which had engaged it.

Brief History of America cartoon... Moore doesn't hate America, you say? This cartoon demonstrates otherwise.

NRA rally in Denver...Moore opens with the infamous "from my cold, dead hands" soundbyte. To bad that quote was from one year after the meeting, but Moore would have the viewer believe that it was uttered in defiance of the Columbine shootings.

Moore then cuts the shot with the image of a billboard so the causal observer won't notice that Heston's attire has changed from shot to shot.

How "evil" the NRA was for going to Denver... It was their annual meeting, which was actually solicited by the mayor of Denver, and the time and date was set well in advance. By law, the meeting had to take place, and rescheduling wasn't a practical option, although all festivities that accompany the meeting were cancelled.

Heston's response to Denver's mayor... According to lardass Moore, Heston stated, "I said to the Mayor: As Americans, we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. Don't come here? We're already here!" as if in defiance. Once again, reality contradicts Moore. This soundbyte is actually a compilation of excerpts from several different paragraphs on various subjects, including Heston's own service in WWII.

Bullets at Canadian WalMart...Buying ammo in Canada isn't quite so easy. Most of the filming for Columbine was done in 2001, which would mean Moore would have had to produce some substantial paperwork to make his purchase.

Claims regarding race and racism... Oddly enough, Moore's claims about minorities and crime are contradicted by the annual Uniform Crime Report. Go figure!

Willie Horton ad... Another bit of wishful editing by Moore, where he inserts text into a Bush/Quayle ad.

Canadian kids interview... Moore stops to interview three of Canada's foreing policy experts, who just happen to be skipping school that day. They do a pretty good job of demonstrating their ignorance of Canada's military heritage.

Dick Clark interview... the word "absurd" comes to mind. Let's just blame the shooting on the fact that the shooter's mother had to get off her lazy ass and get a job...lol.

Moore would like to prsent the shooter's mother as a model parent who was forced to get a job rather than get a free paycheck from the government. Sure, she's a druggie... sure, she had three kids with three different fathers... sure, she abused her kids... sure, she sent her son to live in a crack house... sure, the state declared her to be an unfit mother... it was all that damn Dick Clark's fault. Oh, and it's also the fault of a system that doesn't reward people for spitting out babies and doing drugs.

Heston and those "insensetive NRA rallies... Moore said, "Just as he did after the Columbine shootings, Charlton Heston showed up in Flint to have a big pro-gun rally."
The fact: It was eight months later, and it was not a pro-gun rally.

Contary to what Moore would have the viewer believe, "From my cold, dead hands" was never uttered at that rally.

"48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead"... Moore highlights this text, and blocks out anything that shows it in context, such as it being a quote from Bill Clinton.

The MMM protestor interviewed in MI... Interesting how a scene that was allegedly shot in mid-Oct, in MI, close to sunset, shows "protestors" wearing only t-shirts, with leafy trees in the background, with the sun overhead..

[Darin Chappell]

"Willie Horton ad... Another bit of wishful editing by Moore, where he inserts text into a Bush/Quayle ad."

Just a brief historical note from someone old enough to recall that election with clarity...

The "Willie Horton issue" was NOT originally raised by the Bush/Quayle campaign at all. It was a retread attack that they had borrowed from the democratic primary campaign, wherein a democratic opponent of Dukakis accused him of being soft on crime, using Horton's weekend pass/crime spree as an example.

Now, does anyone remember which Democratic opponent it was who ACTUALLY first raised the Willie Horton spectre for Dukakis? Bonus points for whomever it is that comes up with the answer first!

[bcfos]

Originally posted by Darin Chappell
[B.

Now, does anyone remember which Democratic opponent it was who ACTUALLY first raised the Willie Horton spectre for Dukakis? Bonus points for whomever it is that comes up with the answer first! [/B]


Maybe John Kerry... But the issue is moot anyway, they lost that election.

[Glenn Bartley]

Just a pic I saw at kimdutoit.com with a certain sentiment about Moore