Legalities of current protected Malagasy chameleons for sell.

[Intense Herpetoculture]

So, who is up to talking about the legalities of the parsons, globifers, and brevicornis that are entering (and about to enter) the market place? Let's put the truth out there without any nasty telephone calls early in the morning (does anyone reading this feel guilty of this in the past?). Now if you do feel like you must harrass me in private, just let it be known that I will publically let everyone know what was conversed (as well as the tone) and I will contact my local police department to place charges against you and any company you represent, post haste. With all that being said, lets talk about this in an "adult" manner.

[Chris Anderson]

Justyn,

If you'd like to discuss the situation, I'd be more than happy to talk about what I know about it. My one request is that rather than making bogus assumtions and statements, this conversation sticks with provable factual information, not hearsay as so many of these talks have led to in the past. If you are willing to maintain a credible conversation on the topic, I'll join, if not, I've gotten into too many talks filled with empty statements.

Chris

[Intense Herpetoculture]

Sounds good Chris, but I will point out that a lot of the underground and illegal trade in reptiles is well protected and it is very difficult to get FACTUAL documents on these animals that PROVE their orgin. I have many sources within the United States and worldwide that come in direct contact with these animals and trade in them regulary. I keep in contact with these people because I am in the trade, just not with my private company, Intense Herpetoculture, but I also work for another respected reptile dealer as well. Needless to say, I know a lot more then anyone thinks I do, and within due time I will prove the orgin of these animals for other reasons, but I am unable to completely open the basket at this time. I will leave out any names in this disscussion since that is mearly what it is, a discussion, and not a courtroom. There are at least two dealers currently offering Parson's at the moment, and both claim to aquire these animals from legal sources within Europe. BOTH the dealers (lets called them dealer A and dealer B) CITES permits state that they are CBB animals bred in Europe. I know differently. I know these animals were bred and raised in Indonesia at Ducan's farm and they are not allowed into the US at present time for various reasons relating the the dubious orgin of the breeder stock Ducan aquired from Madagascar. They were exported from Indonesia into Europe, and sent along the way to the merry old US.

(Dealer A)
I ask you Chris, why on Earth do you really believe the story of a guy that would clearly do anything to make a dollar? He told me himself he is not a chameleon person, he's into his snakes. Now why I do not believe he is being dishonest in what the guy in Europe told him, I do believe he is being iggnorant to the facts. Several months ago I posted a response on dealer B's thread talking about the orgin of Parson's currently for sale in the US market. Well, that pissed off dealer A (and I never once mentioned their name on the BOI) pretty bad, they (guy on the phone, woman in the background) ended up calling me at 8 am, waking me up, started to yell foul words at me demanding I somehow believe that their animals were 100% liget. Now I knew the facts, but I was unprepared (being how I recently moved, just woke up, and did not want to deal with this sh*t) to prove to them that I knew their animals were illegal. He called me to scare me off the subject, why else would he call me in such a manner? Then he started to tell the story of where the animals orginated from. He told me all about how this guy bought a pair of them up in 1995, didn't know anything about chameloens, they all ended up living for many years, and are now producing outragous numbers of strong healthy babies (about 100-150). He said he had hatch dates, etc. Well, although I knew the exporter or the importer (Dealer A), made up this story to allow entry into the US, it would be extremley difficult to prove otherwise. What really got to me was how towords the end of the conversation dealer A then boasted about bringing in legal brevicornis and globifer soon, likely from the same source. Wow, now how would he do that? Really, explain to me Chris, who has been hiding these breeding groups of parsons, globifers, and brevicornis all this time legally in Europe, and for some werid reason is now producing huge numbers of them at the EXACT same time Ducan is exporting large numbers of the EXACT same species into Europe???? I've never heard of anyone aquire brevicornis or globifers from legal sources for years (even in Europe), and while I do know some Parsons are still floating around, come on, open your eyes. All of these animals are all being offered within the US only a few short weeks after Ducan sends them over to Euorpe, and poof, look, CBB babies bred in Europe from hidden stock no one knew about. Now I for anyone would be thrilled if these animals were liget, in fact I hoped they were as I wanted to aquire some of them myself, but I researched hard into it, and they are not legal. I will not support illegal acitivty. Everyone else can go and buy them all up, do it, but when USFWS comes to your door and questions you about the animals you just spent thousands of dollars on, don't you dare say that you had no idea they were legal. Why doesn't everyone start looking at the facts and not listen to the stories? I am deeply regretful that everyone is taking part in this illegal trade, it does not look good for the reptile trade. It may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, but the truth will come out.

As for Dealer B, well, the animals come formt he same place, and I have no personal experience with this company, so I'll just lay off. He/she was nice enough not to call and curse me out early in the morning.

[Chris Anderson]

Justyn,

I'm unclear on dealer B, I too know of two current sources but rather than mistakingly put your acusations to a wrong party, I'll have to ask you to clarify on them. Was this individual recently the target of a BOI thread on the parsonii and are C. globifer and more C. parsonii currently being advertised?

Since you brought up Duncan in Indo, you are going to have to be very clear with your explainations. Guilty or not, whether he is doing it or not, what proof do you have that he has shipped parsonii, globifer and brevicornis to Europe? According to him, he is not able to do so and does not. Furthermore, on December 7, 2001, he posted on ADCHAM about receiving his first parsonii (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADCHAM/message/9341). On March 26, 2002, he posts pictures of a gravid female C. parsonii asking questions about her coloration (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADCHAM/message/10069). Finally, on June 11, 2002, Duncan states his female parsonii is laying (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADCHAM/message/10439) and contacts a few parsonii breeders privately for info on their incubation. That would mean that the earliest these eggs could have hatched with our current record with parsonii eggs is around September 2003. If you are going to affiliate Duncan with the shipment of year old animals that came in August 2003, you need to explain this and provide proof or at least come right out and say how this can be explained.

With dealer A I can say the following. I have seen all the animals from both shipments, they are clearly of the same age groups as their shipment companions and, having seen them in the wild at this age, do not appear to be wild caught indicating that they all hatched around the same time in a captive environment. Furthermore, I have seen the CITES documents and spoken with a FWS special agent in Boston who verified to me that the CITES papers and shipment had been approved and were considered legal. With that, unless you have proof of them coming from elsewhere, I don't think you can legitimately lable them as illegal. As for the globifer and brevicornis, to my knowledge, the CITES papers have not been issued to them nor have they entered the US and as a result, you nor I can speculate on the legality of dealer A's product in specific regard to these two species.

What I'm getting at is, your claims about where these animals are actually coming from do not match up to the actual situation and unless you have proof to back the charge or their legality, all you are doing is making empty slanderous statements.

Chris

[Intense Herpetoculture]

Chris, in regards to Ducan, I was in contact with him in 2002 & 2003 regarding shipment of various chameleon species into the US, including Parson's, Golibifers, and Brevicornis. Ducan told me Parons would be ready to ship late Spring-Fall 2003, and they would be 6-8 month old animals. Now I later found out on two seperate occasions that USFWS would not allow these animals into the country because they died not agree with the permits issued to allow the parents to be exported from Madagascar. Let's not forget about the other farms outside of Madagascar that have breedng groups of Parsons, as well. I have talked to several dealers in Europe regarding where they obtained these animals and who they have sold them too, everything in my book matches up. I've talked to customs agents in Europe as well as the US. I know what has come in and what has come out of Europe, and from where. I can not give details at this time for reasons out of my control, in the future it will all come out and you will know more. I am just tired of the whole chameleon hobby being taken in this manner, and if you wish to sleep in the same bed as the devil, go ahead. I know your a good person Chris, and thats what gets to me the most, you are letting your hopes that these chameleon are legal get in the way of you common sense. I am tired of all this shady business going on in the reptile trade, it is going to be the death of the reptile hobby.

[Intense Herpetoculture]

Oh, dealer A, well, you know them well Chris. Dealer B is the one who advertized globifer on Kingsnake. Please don't take any of this personal, I have nothign against you Chris and I am very happy to see you take over Chameleon E-Zine.

[Chris Anderson]

Justyn,

The problem I have is I've heard these same things many times before and they have yet to be proven. As you indicated, if they are proven, we'll know but at this point, its still a whole bunch of theories based on questionable information that at this point is not backed by any evidence that enforcement agencies have been willing to back up. The problem is, nothing new is being brought to the table for discusion so at the end of the day, its still comes down to a time will tell senario.

As for dealer B, all the information I've gathered at this time on this dealer has been turned over the the FWS along with information gathered from other parties. Pending the outcome of his next shipment, all this information couple potentially be released on the BOI.

Chris

[Intense Herpetoculture]

Well, I personally think with Parsons and the rest I would want proof that they were 100% legal and I would go with my common sense until then. I mean, really Chris, where did these animals come from?

[Double "D" Reptiles]

Hi Guys,
I'll admit up front to not knowing anything about the particulars being discussed directly here...Dealers A and B or the particular group(s) of chams in question. However, there is a much larger issue being discussed here as background issue that is actually the whole enchillada. CITES. Because of the nature of this "beast," it is elusive and can not be maintained the same in every country around the globe. Try as many countries do to maintain the what we would call extremely high standards of conduct with regards to enforcement, others fall short of our expectations.

The animals hat have been discussed so far fall into he miserable grey areas created by this lack of world-wide standards. Regardless of their origin, they are both currently sitting somewhere under legal status...hopefully well cared for and breeding, or about to, if you were to ask me (whether we like it or not new genetic input has to come from somewhere.) These animals have obviously been legally shipped at least once and possibly more and have passed some nation's customs in transit.

We can lament on these issues all we want, but in the end, once animals have been issued a clear legal status somewhere, it becomes a moot point. How would it be handled if an animal that USF&W thought questionable, but was legal, in say France, was bred to a non-questionable mate and produced true CBB offspring? Wouldn't those be allowed legal status in the US at that point...or is USF&W so particular that even 4th generation offspring would be considered contraband?

To continue lamenting this issue, take into consideration all of the bearded dragons available today on the market. Somehow, these made it out of Australia and were laundered (most say in European countries) before finding their way into the American marketplace where they've thrived now for years.

It is truly regrettable that these things happen and irritating as heck that some international figures in the industry seem to be involved regularly. But, they're not total idiots either. If what they are doing is in fact illegal in the US, then they're obviously keeping the illegal acivities elsewhere where they are either legal or else ignored for whatever reason...part of which may be that they are smart enough to know just how far they can go with different countries around the world.

David

[Dennis1]

just kiddin...lol

[Just Bugs]

Justyn,

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I have been away for awhile dealing with family issues and a death in the family...

Come on now Justyn, I can not believe you have the audacity to jump up on your soap box!

I still have the emails, on a burned cd somewhere in storage (in the process of moving further south), that I would be glad to find where Duncan emailed after I had been grated soul distributorship for his animals here in the US (which included those "protected" M'car species) previous to me contacting USFWS to see if it would be legit... You and I had talked about this on numerous occasions before hand and we both knew in our minds that USFWS wasn't going to allow them before we got their answer! However, after we had agreed on that fact and were waiting on a reply from USFWS, I get an email from Duncan informing me that you were going behind my back contacting him asking to be a distributor yourself when I had already told him you and I were to be partners and you would be helping me sell some of his stock if USFWS allowed the shipments... I would have them on my computer had my serial ATA raid setup not failed on me but I burn everything on my system from time to time just to be fail safe.

Also, if you want to get nitty gritty, how many meru's of those you have had (dunno if you currently keep any) do you think were actually collected legally??? Want to know my educated guess? Tell ya anyway, NONE! You show me a copy of the CITES papers that includes them, along with the collections papers with a paid stamp on them and which have corresponding dates then I will retract that statement! Otherwise, I stand firmly by it because I have met a great deal of what are regarded as the "Good Exporters" around Arusha and Dar es Salaam. I'm not talking just "Dar Guys" either as none of them pay for the collection permits as one would expect especially since those that are regarded as the "Good Exporters" don't even bother to buy them. They don't give a flip about those meru's you cherish, all they care about is the mighty dollar and those collection papers don't taste good and aren't so filling to their children!

So lighten up man and quite trying so hard to make yourself out to be something you are not. If you are going to do it, do it right and fully practice what you preach!

Just my .02 for what it's worth anyway! Also, tell your buddy at reptiles that I'm digging up all the info he needs! My dad is telling me to just drop it but I'm not... Its the principal man and you know what I'm talking about. I just wanted to mention that so you couldn't say that the above was posted because I was mad about that... I'm not mad about it, I just want things made right as I am really about doing the right thing; hence my import practices. You just started a big stink and I just thought people should be made aware of what I know about you that they don't since you wanted to get it started to stir up dirt on Chris...

Josh Mease
MBT - CRG Chameleon Farms
PO Box 2282
Arusha, Tanzania
East Africa

507 Humes Ave
Huntsville, Alabama 35801
USA
256.489.0809

PS: So I don't have to answer the question a million times, the Rhampholeon in the picture has recently been described: R. montanus

[KelliH]

You just started a big stink and I just thought people should be made aware of what I know about you that they don't

Well, sounds to me like you have an axe to grind. Perhaps it is professional jealousy, perhaps not, but whatever the case may be it it obvious from your post that it is personal. Maybe you should keep it that way rather than posting on a public forum about it. But I realize how tempting it is to get digs in on the net.

Many of us know about the illegalities going on not only in the chameleon trade but in the reptile trade in general. Why should we be afraid to speak of it?

[Just Bugs]

Laugh!! Look at the thread Justyn started about me and my organization on the BOI and say that to me again!

I just can't stand hypocrites! Judge not before you judge yourself is my philosophy and one I think everyone should give some thought too!

I was merely trying to shed some light on the situation and figure out why Justyn is standing on his soap box so high and mighty when he doesn't practice at all what he preaches...

-Josh

[KelliH]

Like I said,

Perhaps it is professional jealousy, perhaps not

You say not so that's fine. At any rate, I didn't get anything out of your post that shed any light on any situation. It just sounded like you were angry to me.

I don't know of the thread you speak of, however I would enjoy an honest and intelligent discussion about the legalities of importing herps.

[Intense Herpetoculture]

Josh, you helped me with that article, I've said that a million times, but you did not write it, I did. You did not co-author it, I was the sole author. Having a respected peer review an article and offer advise does not make you a co-author. I did ask if you wanted to be a co-author, and you know what, you declined because you were too busy with everything going on in your life. I thought it was funny as heck when you harrassed Reptiles magazine in regareds to my article. Saying you wrote it, etc. That I stole it from you. Do you wanted me to post those e-mails and my replies? I still think highly of you, your business, and your ethics. I don't know why you still have issues with me. Maybe it is because me and you were going into a partnership, and you never came through on your end of the deal, so I put my money elsewhere, what is wrong with that? For a WHOLE YEAR you strung me along, nothing got done on your part. If it did, tell me, where were the shipments of chameleons you promised from the farm in Tanzania? THEY NEVER CAME! So what did I do, I put my money into WC animals so I could breed my own and not wait for you to get your life together.

I did contact Ducan, that was no secret. I could have imported various species from Ducan through other sources if I wanted, did I, no! You want to know why, I have ethics. I was even contacted by Ducan to purchase C. globifer a few months ago, they were already in the state, did I buy them, no! I e-mailed Ducan back and said I was not interested in them because of the legalities.

As for the Meru's that I have, and ones that I have kept. I do not have the CITES permits, but I can promise you they came in with legit permits and that they came from shipments inspected by the USFWS. I purchased them from various people and exporters, but I'm sure if I tried hard enough I could contact the importers and get a copy of the import permits (LA Reptiles, Stricly Reptiles, Burgundy Reptiles, etc). Are you trying to say my reptiles are smuggled, tough luck! I am not sure of their status with local collection permits within Tanzania, but you know what, I've stated that publically, in fact within MY article in Reptiles Magazine. The one I gave you credit in.