need help on breeding my veiled chams.

[Veiledchamlver]

when i put my veiled chams together, the female shows warning signs on one side and passive signs on the other side. And my male does everything right by compressing his body and rocking back and forward but when the girl walks away he doesn't chase her he walks in the opposite direction. i need help on what to do.

[Nemesis]

How old are they?

[Veiledchamlver]

they are 6 months old

[JasonDescamps]

There is absolutely no reason for veileds to be bred at 6 months of age. You should wait until your female is at least 12 months before attempting to breed her. By breeding at that young of an age all you are accomplishing is shortening her life.

Give them some time to mature and then try again later.

[Nemesis]

My guess would be they are not old enough. Is the female showing the robins egg blue on her casque?

[Veiledchamlver]

so you think i should wait even though my female is showing the robin egg blue spots

[Nemesis]

I would wait, 6 months is pretty young to have babies.

[Veiledchamlver]

okay thankyou very much

[JasonDescamps]

A veiled can show receptive colors at six months and they can be bred at six months. As a matter of fact that used to be the recommended age to breed them at. As time has gone by we have seen what breeding at such a young age can do to a veiled as oppossed to waiting. Just because somethign can breed doesn't mean it should. It's best for your chams, the babies that they produce and the chameleon community who would buy the babies for veileds to be older before they are bred.

[elago]

of Veileds depends on the individual female's health, body weight, living conditions, ect. I bred all of my females between 6-8 months of age without a single complication of any sort, with females laying between 43-63 eggs (across 14 females this year). There's no set of rules for when you should breed or not, it all boils down to the individual animals. When they're ready, they're ready- not before. Shortening the life span of an animal is inevitable when you begin to breed chams (especially females) and has little to do with what age you initially breed the animal. The problem arises if you wait too long to breed your female(s), she'll begin throwing infertile clutches increasing the chance of egg-binding. For an animal raised primarily outdoors in natural sunlight and fresh air, the breeding age of the animal safely moves a bit shorter as the extra sun helps the females metabolize calcium before (and recovering from) laying efficiently. In artificial lighting settings (flourescents, MVB's, ect.) the age for breeding moves up a bit. I'm not here to argue any points about at what age females should be bred, but 6-8 months is DEFINITELY a safe age for healthy, robust, well raised animals (I speak from experience from this year's animals alone), it is definitely NOT a safe age for an underdeveloped juvenile veiled to be breeding if the animal hasn't yet reached adult size (which is common in artificial lighting settings), in which case the calcium loss caused by an underdeveloped animal laying a clutch can be too much for the female, and her life-span will be drastically shortened. In more or less words, use your own judgement as to when to breed your female(s) based on the status of the individual animal you have. I have seen 8 month old females that should not be bred, yet I have also seen 5-5.5 month animals raised outdoors lay perfect clutches and live without complications, so it's really just up to the hobbyist to determine when an animal is ready for breeding. -Eric Lago *MS Reptilian Hobbyists*
http://msreptilianhobbyists.fabpage.com

[Veiledchamlver]

thank you all for your opinions

[JasonDescamps]

As much as I appreciate your experience with this years females I am not speaking from months or even a few years experience. True, veileds can be bred at 6-8 months, no one here has disputed that fact. And there are no set rules for breeding veileds or any other chameleon. The facts are there though. Over the past 12-15 years many, many people have bred veileds at different stages of life and different body weights/conditions. In most cases it has been shown that the life span is shortened when they are bred too young. As I stated before, 6 months used to be the standard that everyone bred veileds at. As the hobby has progressed many people have waited to breed until their animals reach 10-12 months and have seen not only an increase in overall production but healthier offspring and longer lived breeders. Most of this can be attributed to captive veileds being fed far too much and growing to large too quickly and producing very large clutches of eggs. 40-60 eggs sounds great when you are selling the babies but this is an abnormally large clutch when compared to wild veileds.

Egg binding is not an effect of infertile eggs being produced many breeders, myself included, have had veileds produce several clutches of infertile eggs and show no ill effects. Egg binding is almost always related to body weight and captive conditions.

While I agree that all animals should be taken on an individual basis I wonder how many novice keepers have the background knowledge to make that determination in the best interest of the animal and not the best interest of the keeper.

[elago]

40-60 eggs would be "Abnormally sized" clutches for "wild female veileds", however, it is a statement concerning the quality of their lives in the aspect of their captive care and living conditions. I've been breeding veileds for a couple of years now, the first females I bred at 7 months of age (purchased in December 2001, bred late summer 02) , and both of these animals are still alive and doing well. To be honest, had not the animals I hatched in December 03 done so well outdoors (they started under Mercury Vapors) I would have waited myself, but these gals were full-blown adult size/weight by 5 months of age and every single one of them threw perfect clutches without complications (bred at 6-7
months and laid at 7-8 months), and the entire lot of 14 females is gravid again about to lay their second clutches for the year. I agree with Jason on one point at least- the discretion of the individual hobbyist is the key here, but it would be tough indeed to draw the line where it is the right or wrong thing to do for the animal by someone with little experience. I NEVER claimed to be an expert, but I DO write what works for me (which does NOT necessarily work for the next hobbyist), and let me tell you, there is NO SUBSTITUTE for natural, unfiltered sunlight and fresh outdoor air for your chameleons, and keeping them outdoors keeps them happy, productive, and healthy, and you'll be amazed at the difference it makes in your animals. Egg laying has a tendency to go much smoother as the animals have the oppurtunity to metabolize calcium at the absolute peak, and extra dietary supplements simply help the process along. You're right also Jason, that egg-binding is not necessarily infertility related (it's mostly related to stress and unhealthy animals)
, however, infertile clutches are just a serious waste of calcium for a female who lays said clutches. Me personally, I just wait until the individual animals seem ready, and stickem in with a male, and prefer to skirt around even the possibility that a clutch would go to complete waste by simply breeding my females to a fertile male. Anyhow, that's not the issue here, to the thread originator veiledchamlvr:
Your veileds are not ready to breed yet, if your male was ready for action, there would have been no hesitation in mounting the female after chasing her down (most male veileds do not hesitate). If you're using an artificial lighting setup (flourescents- wait until 10-12 months of age, Mercury vapors- 9-10 months) you should definitely wait to give the female time to prepare and absorb as much UVB as possible (to metabolize as much calcium as possible) before attempting to breed her. About two or so months before you plan on trying, bump up her calcium dust intake to make sure she gets moreso than usual (3-4 times a week dusting food if not every feeding). The next time you put them together, they should go no hesitation, just give them a couple of months to get ready for it. -Eric Lago *MS Reptilian Hobbyists*
http://msreptilianhobbyists.fabpage.com

[Veiledchamlver]

I do have them in an artificial setup. if i put them outside would it be okay for me to breed them in about a month.

[Veiledchamlver]

also how long should the average 5-6 month old female veiled be. i need to know because that might be why my girl isn't breeding. i got her in a trade for one of my boys that was 5.5-6 months. when i asked the person who traded me how old she was he just said "Probally older or younger than him". she is about 5" long. i think she is too too young

[elago]

You have to make positive your night and day temperatures are favorable from the chameleons standpoint. Daytime highs from 75-95 are about right, with nightime drops to around 70 degrees. If your nightly temps are colder than 65, I would bring them inside every evening to avoid them getting sick. Daytime sun is good for chams when being outdoors, so is the great fresh air flow, these things really make a difference in your animals. My females at 5 months or so of age were around 10-12" total length (6-7" SVL- again, it depends on how the individual animal is raised). A month seems like you may be asking a bit much from a small female veiled, but if she begins receiving regular unfiltered sunlight, her calcium metabolisim will increase, and it may be safe to breed her in another month or two (I'm leaning towards two if she's a smaller animal). However, the problem this time of year is the fact that temps are cooling off in the next couple of weeks and it will not be possible to keep them outdoors for much longer (unless you live in FL that is LOL) as the temps will be getting too cool for them. You'll just have to use your own judgement, wait until the animal is completely filled out size-wise (see attached pic) and basically reaches the equlibrium point metabollically where she's really not getting any bigger, at which point you can direct her to breeding efforts. A 5" veiled is definitely an animal that is too small to breed for sure, I would wait a few months and just keep observing her state of health until you feel she's got good enough body weight and size for breeding. -Eric Lago *MS Reptilian Hobbyists*

[Veiledchamlver]

okay thankyou very much eric. I appreciate it. I will wait awhile until I think she is ready.

[JasonDescamps]

Eric,

I appreciate the fact that in your two years of breeding you have witnessed no adverse effects. The husbandry the animals receive and the access to unfiltered sunlight is indeed a large factor in your success. However as I stated, I am not speaking from one or two years of experience with chameleons. Next month will mark 12 years that I have been working with various chameleon species. And I have witnessed first hand some of the effects of breeding too young and too often. Back in the "old days" we all bred them at 6 months old. That was just the thing to do, you had to do it or they would die, just one of the many tidbits of info that were later proven to be at the very least moderately incorrect. I personally had a female veiled that lived to be seven years old, she produced viable eggs for five years even after laying one infertile clutch before being bred at 12 months old.

While there are no black and white answers for chameleons the information is there and backed up by hard numbers and by many advanced chameleon keepers. Such as this excerpt from the Chameleons Online E-zine, March 2003 issue written by Ken Kalisch...

"I am aware of several hobbyists that have maintained female calyptratus well into their third and fourth year without breeding them. They were healthy viable chameleons. The idea to wait for a chameleon to reach full adult growth is a responsible and responsible approach breeding them. When a chameleon is given the time to fully develop and mature; the reproductive risks are significantly reduced vs. compromising a partially grown reptile. The age, size and health of a female should always be considered carefully before considering breeding. The breeding size of an adult female should average between 12 to 16 inches in overall length. The average age of a female to be bred should fall somewhere between 10 and 14 months."

http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2003/mar2003/calyptratus/veiled_faq.html

Or this excerpt from Adcham.com written by Marc Kramer, DVM...

"Generally speaking, chameleons used for breeding should be of a fully mature size and age and in good body condition. For veiled chameleons, this may mean delaying breeding until they reach 9-12 months of age. It is a common MISCONCEPTION that female veiled chameleons need to be bred at their first signs of sexual receptivity, which may be as early as 3.5 – 5 mo 5 months. In actuality, those females first bred at a later age, once they are fully grown, appear to live longer lives and experience fewer problems with egg binding. Finally, chameleons that are ill, debilitated, geriatric, or obese should not be bred."

http://www.adcham.com/html/veterinary/egglaying-fatigue-kramer.html

I could find several more references both online and printed but they would all state the same things.

Let me be clear, I am in no way trying to tell you or anyone else that they are doing something wrong. I am simply sharing information I have acquired from my years working with chameleons as well as sharing information from other advanced keepers in an attempt to provide this information to the original poster and any other visitor to this site that may have a similar question.

[elago]

I am in no means trying to discount your experience with breeding animals or contradict what you have to say, as I mentioned what some hobbyists do work for some, and sometimes they do not work for others. I simply work from my own experience as to what works for me personally, I'm not trying to get you or anyone else to agree with me on my methods, I simply write what works for me personally, and as long as it continues to be effective for me, I shall continue to write, which may or may not be subject to whatever criticisms seem applicable (as in any science). The main point here being, as long as I meet with success, I will continue to work with my methods, and share what works for me on the topic, and you discover what works for you and do the same (which is the beauty of the fauna forums as we can exchange notes on the topic as to what aspects of husbandry seem to be the most solid practices!). With that in mind, you are indeed an experienced keeper and I hold you in the highest regards in your experience, but the interpretations of our experiences simply differ a little (I can agree to disagree :)), and the next keeper may have a different interpretation also, then the next, and so on. The most important part of all this however is pointing the new hobbyist in the right direction in supplying useful information, which is of course the basis for the forum in the first place. -Eric Lago

[JasonDescamps]

Agreed.

[Jeankugatt]

HOLD ON A SEC, FROM A MAJORITY OF THE BOOKS THAT I HAVE READ IT SAYS VERY SPECIFICALLY THAT THE FEMALE VEILED CHAMELEONS M U S T BE BRED BETWEEN THE AGE OF ABOUT 3 .5 TO 5MONTHS OF AGE OR THEY WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY DIE EGG BOUND. SO I AM NOT SO SURE WAITING UNTIL THE FEMALE IS A YEAR OLD TO BE BRED IS THE BEST IDEA. I HAVE NEVER PERSONALLY BRED CHAMELEONS BUT AM CURRENTLY RESEARCHING THE TOPIC. I HAVE A 5 MONTH OLD MALE AND I AM TRYING TO GET A YOUND FEMALE BUT I AM NOT SURE IF I CAN JUST LOWER TEMPERATURE AND REDUCE HUMIDITY AND LIGHT FOR A FEW WEEKS AND THAT WOULD BE THE CYCLING OR DO I NEED TO WAIT FOR WINTER TO GET A FEMALE AND CYCLE THE 2 THEN, OR JUST PUT THEM TOGETHER NOW.

IF ANYONE CAN ANSWER MY QUESTION I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT,

AND ALSO IF I HAVE SAID ANYTHING THAT SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH PLEASE LET ME KNOW ALSO.

[Veiledchamlver]

actually you can put them togehter whenever. I have a 5.5 total lenght female that is almost 5 months old if you want her. will accept some trades or will give her 2 U for 30+ shipping

[JasonDescamps]

That's great. You should do whatever you want then. Breeding chams for 10 years really makes no difference anyway. I obviously have no idea what I am talking about and neither does any other successful long term breeder. Please do as you wish. Vieldchamlvr took the info that Eric and I both posted and took whatever he wanted to hear out of it and you should too. Don't take advice of people who have been there. Just do what you want. I have seen hundreds of 3 month experts come and go. I have lived through the bad info in books, the bad info from breeders, we have all been where you are before. The difference is if you choose to take in all the available info and make a educated decision rather than letting your desire to breed and your ego get in the way. Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

[Jeankugatt]

i am sorry, i did not see all the previous postings. I am fairly new to the site and all i know is what i have read in books. i just checked out some of the older postings and was amazed at how different what i have read was. I in no way did i mean to insult ur intelligence, i am just learning. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I didnt mean to sound arrogant or anything i was just trying to write in the best interest of the chameleon based on what i have read.

[JasonDescamps]

Chameleon keeping has evolved more rapidly than possibly any other area of herp keeping. The info that was cutting edge a year or two before can be outdated and borderline dangerous now. With the evolving nature of the info and the difficulty in keeping these animals alive there is a tendency for novice keepers to somewhat bury their heads in the sand and ignore real world experience and advice from advanced keepers. Eric and I had a discussion on this thread about breeding strategies for veileds. We disagreed on several points but we both manged to listen to each others views and accept the others views because both were backed up by research and personal experience. I still don't advocate breeding veileds before 1 year of age but I am not sheltered enough to know that it does happen every day. The problem arises when someone with no experience comes and posts opinion as fact. they may mean no harm by it but many novice keepers treat these forums as the absolute end all of info and do very little research on their own. People like Eric and myself attempt to help keepers by sharing info and experience and it gets frustrating to constantly see the same type of attitude.

I took no personal offense to your post, or any other post on a forum for that matter. Sometimes you just have to tell people to do what they want. It's all they want to hear so it is all that they do hear. I'm glad that you are beginning by doing your reasearch. It's the people who put the book time in that are really successful with chams. Do the work and the success will follow. As far as books with more up to date info, you should check out Chameleons, their care and breeding by Linda Davidson as well as Chameleons, Natures hidden jewels by Petr Necas. For a listing of other cham books you can check out References (http://www.chameleondatabase.com/misc.asp) on the cham database site. It also contains a few links to other cham related sites. Good luck with your chams.

[elago]

Most of the available chameleon books at your local pet shops are already FAR outdated, and the same information was viewed by myself out of several different publications (concerning breeding the animals at 3.5-5 months of age, and missing the breeding gets them egg bound) BUT much more recent evidence suggests this is not nor has ever been the case. 5 months would be an awfully young animal to breed (Unless you had an exceptionally huge outdoor-grown specimen) especially if the animal is raised under artificial lighting circumstances and only 5.5" at 5 months of age (That's definitely too small for that age). Out of several different bloodlines of chameleons over two years, I have yet to see a 5 month animal that small, 8-12" (or more) seems consistent with the chams I raised indoors. But Jason is ABSOLUTELY correct- outdated information is available everywhere you look- but that does not necessarily make it correct information. There's no given up to date "bible of chameleon breeding" to my knowledge, and we would do well to heed the words of Jason's experiences. Success with chameleons is a relative experience and differs from keeper to keeper, the problem arises when keepers using different setups, lighting opinions, temperature, incubation of eggs ect. publish results, they're greatly individualized to fit the situation the keeper keeps the chams in and fundamentally different across the literature. In the sciences, this is called Bias; and many published biased result without even realizing they're doing so. As far as "cycling chams" goes, I have no opinion- I have never from day one of keeping veileds cycled them in any way with humidity fluctuations/temp. fluctuations ect. save for the natural cycle s of keeping them outdoors from mid-spring-mid fall then under Mercury Vapor UVB's overwinter indoors (at a steady ambient temp of 84 day, 78 night, basking spots to 100, the rest of the year they're left to face the outdoor elements until the low temps drop below 65 degrees or so. As long you have a male that considers his cage his territory, no cycling is needed- just introduce a female to his cage, and if he's old enough, he'll know what to do. -Eric Lago *MS Reptilian Hobbyists*

[Jeankugatt]

thank you for your reply,
as i said, i am just learning and the guidance of those with experience is priceless. I received a 3 month old male in May and was astonished to see how small a 3 month old veiled is and the first thought i had was an adult male or slightly younger to do some damage to something that small. So tell me would this be an acceptable enclosure to breed veileds in a 6ft by 4ft by 2ft with 2 or 3 hibiscus trees. i would probably just have my male and then a female. Also as far as lighting, are these 80 dollar reptisun bulbs that combine uva and uvb are they better than a flourescent fixture. Because from what i understand the flourescents should be replaced every 3-6 months and the other bulb can last more than a year.
And also if the male shows aggression to the female or vica versa, how long would you recommend i wait to try again. This is just for future reference, if it is not recommended to breed chams that young then ill wait till their older , but id like to have a set plan for when i do attempt to breed them.
Thanks again

[JasonDescamps]

That enclosure sounds great for you male when he is an adult but keeping them together in a cage will only lead to problems. Veileds are very aggessive chams and the males are usually very intolerant of other chams in their territory. Females will often be hounded to death by a mature male. Your best bet is to cage the seperately and only put them together for breeding purposes. Some keepers do multi house chams but until you have a firm base of cham keeping it is very difficult to recognize the subtle stress that can be displayed by this type of housing.

As far as a set plan. Good luck. Chams aren't really a set plan type of animal. If you think you have it figured out they will always do something to make things difficult for you. Your best plan is to do as Eric suggested. Put them together and see what happens. Veileds are a bit easier to deal with simply because the female displays receptive coloration when they are ready to breed. Purchase a few good books, do your research online and you will begin to recognize the behaviors and colors of your female. This will only help you in breeding them.

[Jeankugatt]

so would it be okay to have 2 2 x 2 x 4 cages and then introduce the female to his cage or should i build the 6ft x 2ft x 4ft and then 1 of the 2 x 2 x 4 and then move the female into the larger males cage to breed. Also how long does it usually take for them to breed, will they do it more than once, or do they breed and then seperate. Also for the large cage, would i need multiple basking spots or could i just have 1 say 100wt bulb on one side and he go to it whenever he needs to thermo regulate.

thanks

[JasonDescamps]

Either of those options would be fine. A nice big cage for the male would be pretty cool though. I would still only do one basking spot but make it a pretty strong one.

Veileds will usually mate once or twice and then the female has had more than enough. Soemtimes they will breed multiple times over a longer period of time but those cases aren't as common. It usually goes from mating to disregard to hate in a short amount of time so it's best to keep an eye on them. But remember, like with all chams, if you think you are ready for it they will change it up on you. That's why research is your best friend.

[Veiledchamlver]

and when i offered you my cham and said you can breed them when u wnat I didnt mean the age of mine was ok to breed I meant the cycle thing