White Oak Gray rat snake question...

[cka]

any visible differences in appearances between normal gray rat babies and the white oak phase babies?...Also is this a "trait" or just a look, like Okeetee is a look in corns? Thank folks...

[Chris_Harper2]

I've been watching this thread hoping you'd get a response.

I've never seen a baby White Oak but believe I read they look like normal grey ratsnakes babies.

However, they represent a locality more than a "phase", although those terms often seem to be used as synonyms so I can't be sure what you're asking.

Back in the late 80's I was part of a reptile display put on by the Northern Ohio Association of Herpetologists. It was a one day show put on at the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo. One of the less active members showed up with a White Oak Grey Ratsnake that was stunning. It litterally looked like it has swam through white paint. I have never seen one that approached that specimens coloration. I now wonder if it also was hypomelanistic or something in addition to being from the White Oak locality.

At any rate, I've always been intrigued by these snakes but have never kept them. I hope you get more responses.

I hate to say it, but you might try the ratsnake forum over on Kingsnake. I realize a lot of people have issues with KS but the ratsnake crowd over there has a lot of people interested in locality of SE US ratsnakes.

[Clay Davenport]

I bred the white oak phase gray rats some years ago.
They were the only gray rats I worked with, so I don't have anything to compare them to first hand, but I don't think they were much if any better looking than regular gray rats.
I believe they just fail to darken with age like the regular gray rats. Perhaps there's some degree of hypo melanism involved, I don't know.

The adults however were very nice looking snakes. I don't think they were as nice as what Chris described, mine didn't look like they had white paint on them, but they were exceptionally light as compared to most gray rats you see.

I never looked into the details of the trait much, so I can't really say what it is attributed to.
I bought mine on a whim actually. I was making a small order with a dealer and added some other things in to justify the shipping costs, and the gray rats were among them.

[Chris_Harper2]

Hi Clay,

That's my take on it. All the other white oaks I've seen were just "different" grey rats. Not necessarily anymore attractive.

This thread prompted a google search and I found the following page:

http://home.flash.net/~alterna/reptiles/elaphe/elaphe.htm

There should be two white oaks pictured. I believe it's the lower male pictured that most closely represents what I saw in Cleveland. But even then the specimen I saw had sections of white-washed look. That might be a better description that white paint which is more suggestive of a pied-ball look.

That snake attracted a lot of attention that day so it was just not me who was struck by it - pun unintended :-)

[cka]

Chris and Clay, thanks for the info...I just think they are neat looking snakes and something I would like to work with for fun in the future...I see white oak gray babies for sale around the 'net every year, and then when you read all the "Is my gray rat a white oak" threads that show pics of regular ol' grays I was hoping there would be a way to discern the babies...

[canth Decided]

I came across a Florida panhandle white oak in Birmingham, Alabama back in the late 80's, and purchased him when he was about eighteen inches long.
The vendor told me that this particular color morph was best suited to hunting on the white sands of Florida beaches and the like, and considering his striking coloration, I would have to agree.
I have to say, he was spectacular, both in appearance and docility.

Very, very pale white with silver saddle markings and eyes like new dimes. I had him for almost nine years, and his temperament was so calm and mellow he could be trusted to be handled by toddlers. He topped out at about five and a half feet.

I'm trying to get my hands on another one of these beauties because to me, they are simply the most beautiful snakes I've ever seen. Everywhere that claims to have them on the net is no longer a viable source, and it's frustrating to not be able to locate what I would have guessed would have been a popular color morph.

Still looking, too.

[Karma Kritters]

We breed White oak phase Gray rats. The answer to your question as to why you don't see many in my opinion is that you have to raise them for about a year to see how they are going to color. Much like Jungle Carpets. Most people want to pay almost nothing for babies so it is not worth it for many breeders to work with them.
We are on to our fourth generation of Grays now. They have a special place in our hearts as being my first pet snake many years ago. I will try to take some pictures of a few of last years babies from the same clutch to show some variation to those interested.
Thanks Sam

[canth Decided]

Post removed - inappropriate advertising
hhmoore

[Karma Kritters]

As promised a few pics from today. All three are females from the same clutch. These were picked as hatchlings to raise up for future breeders based off of three different looks I like. The first is going to be a light girl when adult. She gets lighter with every shed. In blue in the pictures unfortunately.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/8-23-2014/Wakullaandsoon105_zpsb8695f49.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/8-23-2014/Wakullaandsoon105_zpsb8695f49.jpg.html)
The next girl has a more metallic look to her and will have very contrasting saddles when adult.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/8-23-2014/Wakullaandsoon111_zps211ae124.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/8-23-2014/Wakullaandsoon111_zps211ae124.jpg.html)
The last girl here is my main project. fading pattern with peach orange highlights. I am hoping with the added color maybe more people will have interest in the Grays. This has been the hardest color form to get to be reliable.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/8-23-2014/Wakullaandsoon114_zpsf14d15a3.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/8-23-2014/Wakullaandsoon114_zpsf14d15a3.jpg.html)
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/8-23-2014/Wakullaandsoon119_zps2b7468b8.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/8-23-2014/Wakullaandsoon119_zps2b7468b8.jpg.html)
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/8-23-2014/Wakullaandsoon121_zps50e50735.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/8-23-2014/Wakullaandsoon121_zps50e50735.jpg.html)

[canth Decided]

My snake Bishop was of the metallic look like your second female there.

Definitely the phase I'd like to own some day.

[Karma Kritters]

Hello again. I just figured I would post pictures of a couple of last years late hatchlings. This time we got what we have been after color wise. The darker female is typical of most white oak babies. the two light ones are both males that will be staying with us for future breedings . I will ad more pictures in the next couple of days of one of our new females here on loan for this years breeding.
<a href="http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/2015%20-3-29%20100_zpsyfxcuupy.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/2015%20-3-29%20100_zpsyfxcuupy.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2015 -3-29 100_zpsyfxcuupy.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/2015%20-3-29%20098_zpso8f3lwe0.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/2015%20-3-29%20098_zpso8f3lwe0.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 2015 -3-29 098_zpso8f3lwe0.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/132_zps7pnisbks.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/132_zps7pnisbks.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 132_zps7pnisbks.jpg"/></a>

[Karma Kritters]

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/2015%20-3-29%20100_zpsyfxcuupy.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/2015%20-3-29%20098_zpso8f3lwe0.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/132_zps7pnisbks.jpg

[Karma Kritters]

one last try.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/2015%20-3-29%20100_zpsyfxcuupy.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/2015%20-3-29%20098_zpso8f3lwe0.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/132_zps7pnisbks.jpg

[canth Decided]

Absolutely gorgeous.

Love these babies!

[Karma Kritters]

Thanks. As soon as the new girl sheds I will take her out for a photo shoot. She will be used to ad some new blood to the future projects.

[AbsoluteApril]

in order to post the photos so they show, you have to use BBCode instead of html here, like this:
insertlinkhere.jpg

or you can use the 'manage attachment' function, details on how to do so here:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304671

hope that helps

[Karma Kritters]

I just thought I would come and share the pair we bred this year. He is my F4 stud from the bloodline we have been working with for several years to refine the peach accents and Metallic background colors.
She is a wild caught from Walton County Fl. that has beautiful orange skin in between her scales and almost a lavender background color that is hard to capture with my camera. So here are some pictures. Maybe one day the species will get the love in the hobby they deserve.
Male
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/021_zpsshifcrem.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/021_zpsshifcrem.jpg.html)
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/020_zps2hridfdw.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/020_zps2hridfdw.jpg.html)
Female
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/011_zpsofv1dixb.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/011_zpsofv1dixb.jpg.html)
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/006_zpse0mvjniw.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/006_zpse0mvjniw.jpg.html)

[Karma Kritters]

Well I figured I would put some new life in this thread. I have been keeping this project on the quiet side to be sure we were on to something. So here they are. Pure Hypo Grey rat snakes produced from wild caught animals that we have been selectively breeding for years. It will most likely be 2018 breeding season before any are available to the public. First the two hypo males that will be breeding this season.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2430_zpsgcggamf5.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2430_zpsgcggamf5.jpg.html)
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2439_zpsgkl0osr9.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2439_zpsgkl0osr9.jpg.html)
Second male
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2667_zpsri6pyceh.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2667_zpsri6pyceh.jpg.html)
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2663_zpsdrufgabd.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2663_zpsdrufgabd.jpg.html)
Next the females that will be breeding this year.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2663_zpsdrufgabd.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2663_zpsdrufgabd.jpg.html)
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2670_zpsbmnpvljd.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2670_zpsbmnpvljd.jpg.html)
and last a couple of pictures of some of last years clutch.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_3198_zpszjpuagvv.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_3198_zpszjpuagvv.jpg.html)
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2678_zpsro5mxhom.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2678_zpsro5mxhom.jpg.html)
So twenty years of selective breeding and out crossing have finally made what I was looking for. So tell us what do you think about them?
Thanks Sam

[Karma Kritters]

Oops posted the male twice and left out a female. Here is the other girl.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/karmakritters/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2674_zpsvttrvbij.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/karmakritters/media/Ball%20Pythons%20for%20sale/White%20Oak%20grey%20Rat%20project/103_2674_zpsvttrvbij.jpg.html)

[WebSlave]

Actually, I think they are quite nice looking! :thumbsup:

I've gotten to be quite fond of them, as we find them around here fairly frequently trying to raid the bird feeders. Never had any being nippy, unless they think my hand is that bird they have been waiting for to get too close. We wind up taking them out for a ride into the nearby Apalachicola National Forest where we relocated them to.

Anyway, GOOD JOB!