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View Full Version : Anyone see this ad on KS????


Gregg M
10-04-2004, 12:53 PM
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=40&de=259177

GABOON VIPER! LONGEST FANGS IN THE WORLD (VENOM DUCTS REMOVED)GREAT SNAKE

EUGENE OREGON USA

THIS SNAKE IS AMAZINGLY BEAUTIFUL. SO COOL WHEN IT PUFFS UP AND HISSSSSSSSSSSSS's

GREAT EATER. WILL MAKE A GREAT PET. CAPTIVE BREED AND CAN BE AT YOUR DOORSTEP OVERNIGHT!

541-914-4903 OR E-MAIL bloodbankdragons@aol.com

$600 WITH FREE SHIPPING

STEVEN BARNES

It is 100% against the law to ship venomous species through an overnight carrier to your door step..... This is another jackass making it bad for us in the hobby...... I suggest everyone report this person and use the info he gave out himself in the ad.....

Hognose_311
10-04-2004, 01:28 PM
I didnt see it, but, why do it with the risks....? Anyway, why $600? You could pay $100 for a newborn and do the surgery yourself, that's what i have done with mine, and none have died...:smokin:







.....lets just forget this post, i realize now it was stupid...but i wont delete it because i know what i did was wrong....

psilocybe
10-04-2004, 03:14 PM
Gregg,

I saw the ad and was going to post it as well, but then I saw this...you are right, that is 100% ILLEGAL! I'm sending a complaint to KS that one of it's users is ILLEGALLY shipping venomous animals through mail carriers. This isn't excusable, venomoid or not.



Originally posted by Hognose_311
I didnt see it, but, why do it with the risks....? Anyway, why $600? You could pay $100 for a newborn and do the surgery yourself, that's what i do with mine, and none have died...:smokin:

Are you admitting to illegally performing venomoid surgery yourself on snakes? Or are you a vet?

robin d.
10-04-2004, 04:06 PM
and if so why? because as it states in his signature line he only has a copperhead and mangrove.

some people and their home butchery skills. come on over to my house and let me cut out and remove your impacted wisdome teeth and see how you like that... i got my trusty buck knife, a pair of plyers and some fishing line and a needle to do the surgery.... i hope you dont mind a little rust on the knife or thee dirt on the plyers, plus that fishing line is used but all i have and that needle i used to pop a boil on my newphew butt the other day... come on it wont hurt i promise.

steveingram
10-04-2004, 11:14 PM
Mike,

I noticed your last name is Metzger,

Did you know that if the "g" in your last name was a "k" than it would be the german word for "butcher?"

I thought i was interesting since you do your own surgaries to remove the venom glands.

Please not that I am no way trying to offend you or talk in a negative manor about your last name. I am just pointing out a interesting fact.

Steve Ingram

Ken Harbart
10-04-2004, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Hognose_311
I didnt see it, but, why do it with the risks....? Anyway, why $600? You could pay $100 for a newborn and do the surgery yourself, that's what i do with mine, and none have died...:smokin:
Unless you're a DVM, it's unethical and illegal. I would greatly appreciate it if you not promote criminal behavior in these forums. Thank you, and have a nice day.

Rockford
10-05-2004, 02:21 AM
So it's ethical if you ARE a DVM? I don't know about that. However, going back to the original post.....shouldn't someone be screening those posts? KS needs some monitoring. They also need to eliminate the crooks from posting ads as well. Bright idea , huh?

BThacker

robin d.
10-05-2004, 02:57 AM
the poster of the classified on kingsnake has since changed his ad. it no longer states shipping to your door. i reported it to ks with some added contents but i guess they do not care about illegal activity and i am sure if the guy finds a buyer thats exactly how he will ship it... next day to their door.

Hognose_311
10-05-2004, 07:37 AM
Why do people come to conclusions??? Why not find out whats going on before you try and say things like that.......? I dont't take offense about the name thing i don't care.... But I only help with the surgery, my reptile store that i work for has a herpetologist/reptile proffessional vet there, and he just lets me help, plus i get it done for free, sorry for the misleading information, it didn't sound like what i was trying to say.... And i also have a eastern diamondback, a mountain pit viper, and my newest, a baby coral.... I have just been getting into venomous over the last year, and my profile's not updated...so sorry for leading anyone to think I do the surgery, but no i didn't know that my last name could be butcher with a "k" or whatever, that really had nothing to do with the post, but thanks for the cool information....lol:flamethr:

Rockford
10-05-2004, 12:07 PM
Hey Mike-

Don't think I'm harshing on you in any way. I don't come on here to bash anyone. I have always had a passion for venemous, especially Crotalus. I am just curious as to why you put your animals through surgery? Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion. I know it may sound like a dumb question but I am curious.

Thanks-

BThacker

psilocybe
10-05-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Hognose_311
Why do people come to conclusions??? Why not find out whats going on before you try and say things like that.......? I dont't take offense about the name thing i don't care.... But I only help with the surgery, my reptile store that i work for has a herpetologist/reptile proffessional vet there, and he just lets me help, plus i get it done for free, sorry for the misleading information, it didn't sound like what i was trying to say.... And i also have a eastern diamondback, a mountain pit viper, and my newest, a baby coral.... I have just been getting into venomous over the last year, and my profile's not updated...so sorry for leading anyone to think I do the surgery, but no i didn't know that my last name could be butcher with a "k" or whatever, that really had nothing to do with the post, but thanks for the cool information....lol:flamethr:

Interesting...most vets will not let an unqualified person anywhere near an animal during surgery...I have a few friends who are vet techs, and to even work in a vet clinic they need to be certified...

No offense, but I'm still having a hard time believing you that a vet is performing the surgeries on your animals.

Couple that with the fact that 99.9% of vets will NOT perform such a surgery...

snakegetters
10-05-2004, 02:40 PM
There's no question in my mind that the activities being discussed here are both unethical and illegal. A vet cannot legally or ethically allow a random person to "assist" in surgeries on animals belonging to other people.

This is the venomous discussion forum, and promoting venomoids or venomoid operations is not acceptable here. If you are unable to keep venomous snakes because you are too impatient to acquire the professional skills and tools necessary to do so safely, leave them in the zoo where they belong. Cutting pieces off of an animal so that you don't have to bother learning anything about it is not ethical husbandry. People who abuse snakes in this manner are not welcome in a responsible venomous keeper's forum.

GinoInDaBronx
10-05-2004, 07:46 PM
Did anyone else notice that the person posting the ad on ks was based in Oregon? Could it be kevin smith or dick richey using a pseudonym? Or, could that be, the coward, smith, actually using his real name?

robin d.
10-05-2004, 07:54 PM
did i miss something here? who is dick richey (what a name:hehe: )... reminds me of this band that plays around here.... the swinging richards. ok now back to the point who is kevin smith?

Seamus Haley
10-05-2004, 08:35 PM
This is the venomous discussion forum, and promoting venomoids or venomoid operations is not acceptable here.

You know Tanith... I'm about as hardline antivenomoid as they come... But this is RICH'S website and it's for RICH to decide when and IF he wants this site to take a stand against the promotion of venomoids. Based on his response when it was requested that he not allow them in the classifieds, I don't think it's a fight he wants to get involved in and he's essentially left the site neutral in the ongoing debate.

Meaning Tanith... that it is not your place to decide what kind of discussion is or is not acceptable. Seems to be a major ongoing problem with you but I'm sure if you work at it, you'll eventually get that stick out. Try wiggling it.

snakegetters
10-05-2004, 09:59 PM
If pro-venomoiders post here, there are going to be some ugly, bloody, nasty flamewars whether I personally participate in them or not. They are not going to be welcomed by the responsible herp keeping community.

Whether Rich has specific rules on the subject or not, the end result of pro venomoiders posting here is going to be bad. They won't get any welcome here. If Rich wants to welcome them, he's going to have to do it personally, and if he does that the rest of us will pack up and leave. I don't think he's planning on that however.

Ken has already made it clear that posts about unethical and illegal activity are not acceptable in this forum. I'm echoing that message. Venomoiders go away. This is the venomous reptile keeping forum, not the home butchering forum.

Hognose_311
10-06-2004, 07:32 AM
First of all, i am not some random person, said by: snakegetters, i am a relative, and all i do is just help hold things, and he shows me how to do it....... I probably wouldnt even do it myself, because people get in arguments, like this one, or whatever this is considered..... I wouldnt do it anyway in case of harming the snake...I am interested in what other people think about this, but i don't see why its a big deal if I'm not harming someone or something, and NO...im not a vet..but still..im sure there could be some reason for being educated or knowing atleast a little something about venomoid surgery, am i wrong???:argue:

Mustangrde1
10-06-2004, 09:40 AM
I have sat back and just watched this thread. But now Hognose ask a question so to answer you let me ask you one.

Give me a Reason why its ok to perform a surgery on any creature that is based purely on profit?

Why perform an operation to alter an animal that you say you love it for what it is?

The surgery Is performed to give people a false since of security in owning a venomous reptile. It is not a guarantee it will never again have the capability to deliver venom." ill give you the reason in a minute"

Performing or ownership of an altered venomous reptile is not for the love of the animal. It is however human lust. Humanity has a tendancy to lust for things and because of lust they are willing to alter it for their taste , needs or ego. If a person truly loves an animal they love it for what it is, in its true natural condition.

There are arguements that If the surgery is performed correctly it will never again be able of producing venom that is a BIG " IF " to risk you life on.

There is an arguement that there is no evidance of a venomoid biting someone. That is incorrect! Tere is actually 3 very well recorded case's of it occurring.

There is an arguement they can not regenerate the venom gland. Another false statement.

I hope this will get read and enlighten people.

For the record numerous medical research institutes including The United States Department of Agriculture have done numerous studies on Reparative Regeneration using reptiles as part of their experiments and have found that it can and does occur. This includes and is not limited to reptilian and amphibians.

Many of the studies indicate a degree of both organ and tissue regeneration.

Regeneration is defined as the replacement, repair or restoration of lost or damaged structures or reconstitution of the whole body from a small fragment of it during the post-embryonic life.

There are two main types:
Reparative Regeneration: This type is limited to the repair or healing of injuries, and it takes place by localized cell proliferation and migration. This is seen both in vertebrates and invertebrates.

Restorative Regeneration: It is the replacement of lost body parts. It is rare among vertebrates but common in invertebrates.

EXAMPLES OF REGENERATION ABILITY IN DIFFERENT ANIMALS
The degree of this ability differs in the various groups of animals. Following are some examples from invertebrates:

Protozoans: If an Amoeba is cut into parts each containing a piece of the nucleus, the parts grow into complete individuals.

Sponges: Any part of the body can be cut off or injured and it will be readily repaired, e.g., Sycon.

Coelenterates: A Hydra may be cut into many bits, and each part will regenerate into a complete individual of smaller size. The posterior end will regenerate the mouth and tentacles; the anterior part regenerates the foot and adhesive disc.

In vertebrates, the regenerative power is quite restricted. In fish, the tail does not regenerate. In reptiles it does.
Regenerative power is most spectacular in the urodele amphibians. In newts and salamanders, limbs, tails, external gills, upper and lower jaws, parts of the eye (iris, retina) can regenerate.

In mammals, regenerative ability is restricted to tissue regeneration i.e., the restoration of defects and lesions in various tissues but not the restoration of lost organs.

The only exception is the liver in mammals. If a part of it is removed, the remaining portion grows by repeated division to full size, but the normal shape is not restored. Likewise, if one kidney is removed, the other enlarges to take over the function of the missing kidney. This is called compensatory hypertrophy.

There are numerous studies to this end.

Regarding venomoid surgery if the organ IS NOT fully removed it has the potential to regenerate or more accurately Restore itself to a partial use. We do have evidence of many cases of ductal regeneration in which the animal was capable of delivering venom through the duct again.

Just because something has not to some peoples views been credibly scientifically proven does not mean by and means it cannot happen. The evidence especially in the reptile and amphibian families show all to often exactly how much these animals can do to repair damage done to their bodies and or in reproduction.

If the surgery is done completely and correctly the odds remain low of any regeneration. However it is still an IF and I for one am not willing to bet my or my families life on an IF.

There are as of this date 3 confirmed envenomations from supposed venomoids snakes. 1 in Miami Florida. 1 in Liverpool and 1 in Germany. Why is there not more? Simple, Under the medical coding system a snake bite is is broken down as follows

Bite
animal NEC E906.5
other specified (except arthropod) E906.3
venomous NEC E905.9
arthropod (nonvenomous) NEC E906.4
venomous - see Sting
black widow spider E905.1
cat E906.3
centipede E905.4
cobra E905.0
copperhead snake E905.0
coral snake E905.0
dog E906.0
fer de lance E905.0
gila monster E905.0
human being
accidental E928.3
assault E968.7
insect (nonvenomous) E906.4
venomous - see Sting
krait E905.0
late effect of - see Late effect
lizard E906.2
venomous E905.0
mamba E905.0
marine animal
nonvenomous E906.3
snake E906.2
venomous E905.6
snake E905.0
millipede E906.4
venomous E905.4
moray eel E906.3
rat E906.1
rattlesnake E905.0
rodent, except rat E906.3
serpent - see Bite, snake
shark E906.3
snake (venomous) E905.0
nonvenomous E906.2
sea E905.0
spider E905.1
nonvenomous E906.4
tarantula (venomous) E905.1
venomous NEC E905.9
by specific animal - see category E905
viper E905.0
water moccasin E905.0

You will see there is no CODE FOR VENOMOID so it has to be call venomous. and lets face it if it injects venom it is hot, no matter what the person selling it may have told you.

Unless the bite recieves media attention and it is told to them it was a venomoid which by the way is not a true word then it is concidered venomous. With the growing market for these altered cornsnakes it is only a matter of time before we start hearring more and more bite accounts. Ofcourse the proponants for these altered animals will claim bad surgery is the case. Well to me the simple fact is no surgery and no risk would have prevented it. A venomoid owner would not treat a hot the same as his new pet cornsnake thus he wouldnt have had the hot to begin with.

psilocybe
10-06-2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by robin s.
did i miss something here? who is dick richey (what a name:hehe: )... reminds me of this band that plays around here.... the swinging richards. ok now back to the point who is kevin smith?

His name is actually Rich Richey (Dick being a short form of Richard, but also being a very fitting term for this butcher) and he is a backyard butcher. Kevin Smith (not the director!) is his protege, and together they cut up snakes to sell to the inexperienced, and impatient people that make up the venomoid purchasing community. Kevin Smith is the most visible of the two, posting classifieds for his abused victims on KS quite often. In some of the pictures he's posted, you can still see the stitches or scars in the side of the snakes face.

Someone somewhere mentioned something about Kevin possibly taking a hit from a loaded snake recently. If this is the case, I have one thing to say: Karma is a bitch.

Rockford
10-06-2004, 02:06 PM
I wonder if it would ever be legal to take a Dog's teeth out surgically? Or is already? There was a post saying if you don't have the resources and brains to keep venemous responsibly....then DON"T! Surgically removing an organ that has taken hundreds of thousands of years to develop for the benefit of an animal is butchering mother nature. If you respect animals and nature then you would leave alone what it was given to them. Kooks that take part in these "surgeries" really should think twice about what they are doing.

I posted a question for Mike that has yet to be answered.....What purpose does the "surgery" provide for you and the animals?

BThacker

Hognose_311
10-07-2004, 07:33 AM
It provides safety for the keeper, but to let you know...yes i do agree with you more than anyone else i've ever seen post on here... but the thrill of keeping snakes that are venomous....is that they are venomous!!! But mine are not, there are some limitations and there are many risks...but why not make sure its safe?? I already know that the venom gland's regenerate, which really had nothing to do with anything... I appreciate what you have said, and i agree with it because you obviously know what your talking about.... but i originally did not say I PERFORM THE SURGERY...did I? My only response was that I "helped".

The Only Way I "Help", is by watching and holding tools and different organs and things are seperated...so the surgery can be done... So your trying to say that a reptile vet would say, "no i will not perform the surgery on a snake because that's the way they are"? That's what I think...... Because if you went to vet, they would charge you $2000.00 bucks, and then still say "take it easy"...so any vet would do this...

Mustangrde1
10-07-2004, 09:55 AM
Because if you went to vet, they would charge you $2000.00 bucks, and then still say "take it easy"...so any vet would do this...

That statement is false! I have spoken to hundreds of vets that will not perform it.

Many of them state in fact that it is morally and ethically wrong to do so and in clear violation of the Oath they have taken.

Veterinarian's Oath

Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health, the relief of animal suffering, the conservation of livestock resources, the promotion of public health and the advancement of medical knowledge.

I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics.

I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.

Many of the vets I have spoke to point out that in fact even if they could discount their Oath the risk of a potential bite and potential ramification in lawsuits and risk of loosing their lisence is not wourth the few hundred dollars they will gain.


You also said
my reptile store that i work for has a herpetologist/reptile proffessional vet there

If as you state he is performing the surgery there I would hope you have all the proper legal paperwork and the legal requirements set fourth by APHIS unless you have these you and your store are in numerous violations of law.


It provides safety for the keeper, but to let you know...yes i do agree with you more than anyone else i've ever seen post on here... but the thrill of keeping snakes that are venomous....is that they are venomous!!! But mine are not, there are some limitations and there are many risks...but why not make sure its safe??

The above statement contradicts itself! If you know they regenerate then you know they are not safe. Why then remove the glands for any reason? Venomous husbandry is not a persay safe hobby it has risk. However proper training and safety make it a less of a danger.

Ken Harbart
10-07-2004, 10:00 AM
If you can't deal with the risks, then you shouldn't be working with venomous. Laziness is not a valid excuse for hacking out part of a snake's head.

ms_terese
10-07-2004, 11:43 AM
But mine are not, there are some limitations Are you limited in what you can own because you're under 18?but i originally did not say I PERFORM THE SURGERY...did I? Yes, you did. You could pay $100 for a newborn and do the surgery yourself, that's what i do with mine, and none have died... While you explained later that you *don't* do the surgery yourself, that wasn't your first statement.

Hognose_311
10-07-2004, 12:04 PM
Ok well that wasnt the intention, people come to this forum to talk about thyings and discuss things, not to ask people questions or share what they think and have people try to get them arrested or whtever you people are trying to do...I do not know how to Quote what ppl say.....but i do know that I do not do the surgery, my reptile vet does and he lets me help...i am his relative.

I do Not hack open the snake's head, all i do is help hold things and i get to watch, i dont even think id be able to do that even if i knew how..... it's my own snake and i care about them, and hes a professional, so ill leave it up to him....and i don't see why a vet would go to college for x amount of years if he's not willing to do his job..... ofcourse people are going to ask to have that surgery done for many snakes...buthe should have been prepared to do his work..... i believe it is wrong also, but why risk your life instead of a snakes if it's your true passion? Snakes are the only thing that i like to have as a hobby....and if its just not possible to KEEP the snake with its venom, then you just can't.

Snakes are the most extraordinary things on this earth...and some people think they represent the devil....but in history the Kwakuitl indians believed that snakes represented the passage way between heaven and earth, some people respect them, and some don't, and they should be respected. People have been taking over there world for a long time, and then we become fascinated in them. So that is why i have snakes, and i need to have the surgery done BY SOMEONE ELSE, so therefore its not possible to keep its venom glands.

psilocybe
10-07-2004, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Hognose_311
Ok well that wasnt the intention, people come to this forum to talk about thyings and discuss things, not to ask people questions or share what they think and have people try to get them arrested or whtever you people are trying to do...I do not know how to Quote what ppl say.....but i do know that I do not do the surgery, my reptile vet does and he lets me help...i am his relative.

I do Not hack open the snake's head, all i do is help hold things and i get to watch, i dont even think id be able to do that even if i knew how..... it's my own snake and i care about them, and hes a professional, so ill leave it up to him....and i don't see why a vet would go to college for x amount of years if he's not willing to do his job..... ofcourse people are going to ask to have that surgery done for many snakes...buthe should have been prepared to do his work..... i believe it is wrong also, but why risk your life instead of a snakes if it's your true passion? Snakes are the only thing that i like to have as a hobby....and if its just not possible to KEEP the snake with its venom, then you just can't.

Snakes are the most extraordinary things on this earth...and some people think they represent the devil....but in history the Kwakuitl indians believed that snakes represented the passage way between heaven and earth, some people respect them, and some don't, and they should be respected. People have been taking over there world for a long time, and then we become fascinated in them. So that is why i have snakes, and i need to have the surgery done BY SOMEONE ELSE, so therefore its not possible to keep its venom glands.

This post has got contain some of the stupidest, most ignorant statements I have EVER seen concerning this subject...no offense.

i believe it is wrong also, but why risk your life instead of a snakes if it's your true passion?

What exactly are you trying to say here? You state you know it's wrong, but you do it anyway. Your true selfishness and greed are exhibited here for all to see. I hope you are proud. And if something is your passion, you want to do your best to preserve it, not subject it to a cruel and needless surgery that risks it's life. Your "passion" is obvious: To inflate your ego.

Snakes are the only thing that i like to have as a hobby....and if its just not possible to KEEP the snake with its venom, then you just can't.
You are one hundred percent correct...if you can't keep a snake with it's venom, you shouldn't be keeping it...but you also shouldn't be subjecting it to cruel procedures that do NOTHING to benefit the animal just so you can keep it. I would say that you should stick to non-venomous, but I'm not even sure you should be keeping those.

Snakes are the most extraordinary things on this earth...and some people think they represent the devil....but in history the Kwakuitl indians believed that snakes represented the passage way between heaven and earth, some people respect them, and some don't, and they should be respected. People have been taking over there world for a long time, and then we become fascinated in them. So that is why i have snakes, and i need to have the surgery done BY SOMEONE ELSE, so therefore its not possible to keep its venom glands.

What a profound statement. Unfortunately, it only makes you look more selfish and egotistic. You don't "need to have the surgery done by someone else", you choose to. Don't try and make it look like your desire to keep a venomous species justifies you cutting it up to make it suitable for you, because NO ONE here is going to buy it.

I've said enough for now. Talking sense into venomoiders is about as effective as talking sense into a wall. Your ego and greed block out any empathy or compassion for the animals you claim to have "passion" for.

Ken Harbart
10-07-2004, 12:30 PM
You're correct that some people don't respect venomous snakes. They're the ones who think it's perfectly okay to hack out a major portion of the snake's anatomy because they're too lazy or irresponsible to keep an intact animal.

Ken Harbart
10-07-2004, 12:37 PM
Also, I've asked you twice, and now I'm just straight out gonna tell you... shorten your signature. Three or four lines is reasonable. Fourteen lines is an unnecessary waste of sever space.

Rockford
10-07-2004, 01:29 PM
MIke-
Ok.......The Indians have great respect for the snake? I never read about them hacking into the snake's head to remove their glands. If you have such great respect for these animals, you would not participate in these atrocities. It's been said before.... If you can't keep venemous without hacking them up, then leave it up to the Zoos. You can go and check them out whenever you like. Plus there is no risk of you getting bit!!!!! Analyze the statements you've made carefully. You just don't make any sense. Your enthusiasm for reptiles is great but these animals deserve respect. Hopefully you will take something positive from this thread.

BThacker

GinoInDaBronx
10-07-2004, 01:33 PM
Abishek, that was an excellent post! I really like the way that you handle these venomoider fools. I wish that I had your patience.

michael metzger is a liar; and a very bad one at that.

Does anyone else see numerous parallels between metzger and cameron glucheff?

It's your turn now, michael-change your story yet another time.

snakegetters
10-07-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Hognose_311
Ok well that wasnt the intention, people come to this forum to talk about thyings and discuss things, not to ask people questions or share what they think and have people try to get them arrested or whtever you people are trying to do...I do not know how to Quote what ppl say.....but i do know that I do not do the surgery, my reptile vet does and he lets me help...i am his relative.

Let's make this perfectly clear. Many of the folks in this forum are *very* happy to call your local authorities and do their best to get you arrested if you brag here about doing illegal things. Some of us have a pretty good track record of making life less pleasant for animal abusers, and we're proud of it. And yes, we will now be focusing those efforts on you because you decided to promote do-it-yourself venomoiding efforts on a responsible venomous keeper's forum. That's kind of like going to an NAACP forum and bragging about attending a KKK meeting. Not too bright.

Whether you're related or not, if you aren't properly certified or employed in the veterinary profession, it's legally and ethically questionable for any veterinarian to allow you to work on animals belonging to other clients. The legal liability problems can be very serious indeed if something goes wrong. Vets know this, which is why we are questioning the truth of your story.

Can you imagine a human doctor who let his cousin into the surgery area and allowed this medically untrained person to assist in surgery, even so much as by handing over one scalpel blade? Do you understand the potential for lawsuits here? Legally it's the same in veterinary medicine. A vet can get into huge amounts of trouble if they do this, so generally they don't.


Snakes are the only thing that i like to have as a hobby....and if its just not possible to KEEP the snake with its venom, then you just can't.

Exactly. Leave the venomous snakes in the zoo where they belong. They don't belong with people who need to chop pieces off of them and cripple them because they don't know how to work with venomous snakes safely. For your next purchase, are you planning to buy a lion and cut its hind legs off so it can sit harmlessly in your living room as a decoration? That would be a cool house pet, you betcha.

So that is why i have snakes, and i need to have the surgery done BY SOMEONE ELSE, so therefore its not possible to keep its venom glands.

Not "possible"? Who has a gun to your head forcing you to keep venomous snakes? Your selfish desire and your laziness is what the snakes are suffering for. If you are incapable of learning the proper safety skills and acquiring the proper safe housing for keeping dangerous wild animals, don't keep them. Duuh.

You should be really ashamed of yourself. I do hands on work daily with adult king cobras, mambas, kraits, elapids and vipers of all kinds and sizes, and I have absolutely no trouble at all. I am a little old lady (well, middle aged) with thick glasses and bad knees. The skills of safe keeping and handling are professional and easily acquired. If a little old lady can do it so easily, you have absolutely no excuse. You are a sadly deficient individual and you are making animals suffer for your deficiencies.

snakegetters
10-07-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Hognose_311
I didnt see it, but, why do it with the risks....? Anyway, why $600? You could pay $100 for a newborn and do the surgery yourself, that's what i do with mine, and none have died...:smokin:

I should have caught this earlier.

Veterinarians don't do elective surgery on newborn animals. Backyard butchers do.

A few licensed veterinarians do venomoid surgery; I've read papers on the subject by one and heard him lecture on the subject at conferences. One of the things he stated was that the surgery had to be performed on an adult animal, for two reasons. One, a very young animal is at much higher risk. Two, the structures are much smaller and more difficult to properly separate and distinguish in a newborn. So the operation may be a failure either because the animal will not survive surgery, or because it simply won't work. Neonates have a remarkable capacity for regeneration and regrowth.

In short, we have one of two things going on here. Either this is an illegal backyard butcher situation with no vet involved, or there's a vet doing some incredibly stupid things that would expose them to huge legal liabilities. My guess is that the vet is a mythical beastie. Look at the direct quote above that involves words like "do it yourself".

Who's in for helping me with the background research we need to get this one brought up on animal cruelty charges? Where is this pet store?

Mustangrde1
10-07-2004, 03:05 PM
Ok well that wasnt the intention, people come to this forum to talk about thyings and discuss things,

That is true

not to ask people questions or share what they think

Just contridicted your first sentance. We all come here to ask questions and to learn from others experiances and opnions and even critisum is welcomed.

have people try to get them arrested or whtever you people are trying to do

We pointed out that Illegal surgery is a crime. We never said we were trying to get you arrested.

However Here is the Legal Surgical guidlines from APHIS

Surgery
AWA regulations require that survival surgeries be performed using aseptic techniques and that major operative procedures on nonrodents be performed only in dedicated surgical facilities. Nonsurvival surgeries require neither aseptic techniques nor dedicated facilities if the subjects are not anesthetized
long enough to show evidence of infection. Research facilities doing surgical demonstrations while traveling must use aseptic techniques and dedicated surgical facilities. Motel meeting rooms and auditoriums do not qualify as dedicated surgical facilities.


Nonsurvival surgeries not performed aseptically or in a dedicated facility must at least be performed in a clean area, free of clutter, and using acceptable veterinary sanitation practices analogous to those used in a standard examination/ treatment room. Personnel present in the area must observe reasonable cleanliness practices for both themselves and the animals. Eating,
drinking, or smoking are not acceptable in surgery areas, and locations used for food handling purposes do not qualify as acceptable areas for performing surgeries.

but i do know that I do not do the surgery, my reptile vet does and he lets me help...i am his relative.

And he is violating his sworn oath. Not to mention i seriously doubt if your petshop has the required facilities for Surgery or post operative care as outlines by Aphis

pre-through post-procedural care and relief of pain and distress. The specific details must be approved by the attending veterinarian or his/ her designee. However, the attending veterinarian retains the authority to change post-operative
care as necessary to ensure the comfort of the animal. The
withholding of pain and/ or distress relieving care must be scientifically justified in writing and approved by the IACUC. The appropriate use of drugs to relieve pain and/ or distress must be specified in the animal activity proposal to avoid possible delays due to investigator concerns that a treatment regimen
may interfere with the study. Furthermore, the specified drugs for relief of pain and/ or distress must be readily available for use as described in the proposal.


While an animal is under post-surgical care, the ownership of the animal is not to change. If the animal is taken to an off-site location, such as a farm, for post-operative care, that location should be identified as a site of the research facility. An animal is not to be taken to an off-site location before it fully
recovers from anesthesia unless justified in the animal activity proposal. Appropriate post-operative records must be maintained in accordance with professionally accepted veterinary procedures regardless of the location of the animal.

and i don't see why a vet would go to college for x amount of years if he's not willing to do his job

His Job is clearly outlined in the Oath he took and the Ethics of veterinary medical care. Maybe you and he should try reading them both. Also the sergury in question can in no way support a vet full time with any true monetary value equated to it as the proper medical conditions that this surgery done legally would require including Pre-op, Surgery and post operative care.

i believe it is wrong also, but why risk your life instead of a snakes if it's your true passion?

You beleive its wrong yet still allow it do be done $@!? NOW THAT IS EGO101.

and if its just not possible to KEEP the snake with its venom, then you just can't.

Then in your own words DONT KEEP THEM.

So that is why i have snakes, and i need to have the surgery done BY SOMEONE ELSE, so therefore its not possible to keep its venom glands.

Now this one I have got no clue on earth why after your above statements you would contridict yourself again although it is a pattern your showing all to frequently. Your EGO AND VANITY are the reason you want them.

Mustangrde1
10-07-2004, 03:17 PM
Just to make it easy for you

Pages 1--6 from Policy #3 Veterinary Care

Policies Veterinary Care Animal Care Resource Guide
Issue Date: January 14, 2000

AC 3.1
Subject: Veterinary Care
Expired Medical Materials
Pharmaceutical-Grade Compounds in Research
Surgery
Pre-and Post-Procedural Care
Program of Veterinary Care
Health Records
Euthanasia


Policy #3

Justification: The Animal Welfare Act (AWA) requires that all regulated animals be provided
adequate veterinary care.


Policy: Expired Medical Materials
The use of expired medical materials such as drugs, fluids, or sutures on
regulated animals is not considered to be acceptable veterinary practice and
does not constitute adequate veterinary care as required by the regulations
promulgated under the Animal Welfare Act. All expired medical materials
found in a licensed or registered facility are to be brought to the attention of
the responsible official. The facility must either dispose of all such materials or
segregate them in an appropriately labeled, physically separate location from
non-expired medical materials. The Animal & Plant Health Inspection Service
(APHIS) has no jurisdiction over facilities using expired medical materials for
non-regulated animals or non-regulated activities.


For acute terminal procedures, APHIS does not oppose the use of expired
medical materials if their use does not adversely affect the animal's well-being
or compromise the validity of the scientific study. Proper anesthesia, analgesia,
and euthanasia are required for all such procedures. Drugs administered to
relieve pain or distress and emergency drugs must not be used beyond their 1
1 Page 2 3
Animal Care Resource Guide Policies
Veterinary Care


AC 3.2
expiration date. Facilities allowing the use of expired medical materials in
acute terminal procedures should have a policy covering the use of such
materials and/ or require investigators to describe in their animal activity
proposals the intended use of expired materials. The attending veterinarian and
the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee (IACUC) are responsible for
ensuring that proposed animal activities avoid or minimize discomfort, distress,
and pain to the animal. These responsibilities cannot be met unless the
veterinarian and the IACUC maintain control over the use of expired medical
materials.


Pharmaceutical-Grade Compounds in Research
Investigators are expected to use pharmaceutical-grade medications whenever
they are available, even in acute procedures. Non-pharmaceutical-grade
chemical compounds should only be used in regulated animals after specific
review and approval by the IACUC for reasons such as scientific necessity or
non-availability of an acceptable veterinary or human pharmaceutical-grade
product. Cost savings alone are not an adequate justification for using non-pharmaceutical-
grade compounds in regulated animals.


Surgery
AWA regulations require that survival surgeries be performed using aseptic
techniques and that major operative procedures on nonrodents be performed
only in dedicated surgical facilities. Nonsurvival surgeries require neither
aseptic techniques nor dedicated facilities if the subjects are not anesthetized
long enough to show evidence of infection. Research facilities doing surgical
demonstrations while traveling must use aseptic techniques and dedicated
surgical facilities. Motel meeting rooms and auditoriums do not qualify as
dedicated surgical facilities.


Nonsurvival surgeries not performed aseptically or in a dedicated facility must
at least be performed in a clean area, free of clutter, and using acceptable
veterinary sanitation practices analogous to those used in a standard
examination/ treatment room. Personnel present in the area must observe
reasonable cleanliness practices for both themselves and the animals. Eating,
drinking, or smoking are not acceptable in surgery areas, and locations used for
food handling purposes do not qualify as acceptable areas for performing
surgeries.


Pre-and Post-Procedural Care
All animal activity proposals involving surgery must provide specific details of 2
2 Page 3 4
Policies
Veterinary Care
Animal Care Resource Guide
Issue Date: January 14, 2000


AC 3.3
pre-through post-procedural care and relief of pain and distress. The specific
details must be approved by the attending veterinarian or his/ her designee.
However, the attending veterinarian retains the authority to change post-operative
care as necessary to ensure the comfort of the animal. The
withholding of pain and/ or distress relieving care must be scientifically justified
in writing and approved by the IACUC. The appropriate use of drugs to
relieve pain and/ or distress must be specified in the animal activity proposal to
avoid possible delays due to investigator concerns that a treatment regimen
may interfere with the study. Furthermore, the specified drugs for relief of pain
and/ or distress must be readily available for use as described in the proposal.


While an animal is under post-surgical care, the ownership of the animal is not
to change. If the animal is taken to an off-site location, such as a farm, for
post-operative care, that location should be identified as a site of the research
facility. An animal is not to be taken to an off-site location before it fully
recovers from anesthesia unless justified in the animal activity proposal.
Appropriate post-operative records must be maintained in accordance with
professionally accepted veterinary procedures regardless of the location of the
animal.


Program of Veterinary Care
Facilities which do not have a full-time attending veterinarian must have a
written Program of Veterinary Care (PVC). This Program must consist of a
properly completed APHIS Form 7002 or an equivalent format providing all of
the information required by the APHIS form. The attending veterinarian must
visit the facility on a regular basis, i. e., often enough to provide adequate
oversight of the facility's care and use of animals but no less than annually.
Records of visits by the attending veterinarian must be kept to include dates of
the visits and comments or recommendations of the attending veterinarian or
other veterinarians.


The PVC must be reviewed and updated whenever necessary (e. g., as a new
species of animal or a new attending veterinarian is obtained, or the preventive
medical program changes). It must be initialed and dated by both the attending
veterinarian and the facility representative whenever it is changed or reviewed
without change. The preventive medical program described in the PVC is
expected to be in accordance with common good veterinary practices (e. g.,
appropriate vaccinations, diagnostic testing). It should include zoonotic
disease prevention measures and, if necessary, special dietary prescriptions.


Health Records 3
3 Page 4 5
Animal Care Resource Guide Policies
Veterinary Care


AC 3.4
Health records are meant to convey necessary information to all people
involved in an animal's care. Every facility is expected to have a system of
health records sufficiently comprehensive to demonstrate the delivery of
adequate health care. For those facilities that employ one or more full-time
veterinarians, it is expected there will be an established health records system
consistent with professional standards that meets and probably exceeds, the
minimum requirements set forth in this policy. For facilities that do not employ
a full-time veterinarian, it is suggested the health records system be explained
as part of the written PVC, to ensure involvement of the attending veterinarian
in developing the system. For all facilities, health records must be current,
legible, and include, at a minimum, the following information:


! Identity of the animal.
! Descriptions of any illness, injury, distress, and/ or behavioral
abnormalities and the resolution of any noted problem.
! Dates, details, and results (if appropriate) of all medically-related
observations, examinations, tests, and other such
procedures.
! Dates and other details of all treatments, including the name,
dose, route, frequency, and duration of treatment with drugs or
other medications. ( A "check-off" system to record when
treatment is given each day may be beneficial.)
! Treatment plans should include a diagnosis and prognosis, when
appropriate. They must also detail the type, frequency, and
duration of any treatment and the criteria and/ or schedule for
re-evaluation( s) by the attending veterinarian. In addition, it
must include the attending veterinarian's recommendation
concerning activity level or restrictions of the animal.


Examples of procedures which should be adequately documented in health
records include, but are not limited to, vaccinations, fecal examinations,
radiographs, surgeries, and necropsies. Routine husbandry and preventive
medical procedures (e. g., vaccinations and dewormings) performed on a group
of animals may be recorded on herd-health-type records. However, individual
treatment of an animal must be on an entry specific to that animal. As long as
all required information is readily available, records may be kept in any format
convenient to the licensee/ registrant (e. g., on cage cards for rodents).


Health records may be held by the licensee/ registrant (including, but not limited
to, the investigators at research facilities) or the attending veterinarian or
divided between both (if appropriately cross-referenced), but it is the
responsibility of the licensee/ registrant to ensure that all components of the 4
4 Page 5 6
Policies
Veterinary Care
Animal Care Resource Guide
Issue Date: January 14, 2000


AC 3.5
records are readily available and that the record as a whole meets the
requirements listed above.


An animal's health records must be held for at least 1 year after its disposition
or death. (Note: Some records may need to be held longer to comply with
other applicable laws or policies.) When an animal is transferred to another
party or location, a copy of the animal's health record must be transferred with
the animal. The transferred record should contain the animal's individual
medical history, information on any chronic or ongoing health problems, and
information on the most current preventive medical procedures (for example,
the most recent vaccinations and dewormings). For traveling exhibitors,
information on any chronic or ongoing health problems and information on the
most current preventive medical procedures must accompany any traveling
animals, but the individual medical history records may be maintained at the
home site.


Euthanasia
The method of euthanasia must be consistent with the current Report of the
AVMA Panel on Euthanasia. Gunshot is not an acceptable method of routine
euthanasia for any animal. Gunshot as a routine method of euthanasia not only
endangers surrounding animals, buildings, and personnel, but it is likely to
cause distress to other animals. It should only be used in situations where
other forms of acceptable euthanasia cannot be used (such as emergency or
field conditions where the animal cannot be appropriately restrained) or in
cases where gunshot will reduce danger to other animals or humans. Only
personnel skilled in the use of firearms, using appropriate firearms, and familiar
with the "kill point" of an animal should perform the euthanasia. If the firearm
is not aimed so that the projectile enters the brain and causes rapid
unconsciousness and subsequent death without evidence of pain or distress,
this method does not meet the definition of euthanasia. (All State and local
laws relevant to gunshot must also be met.) 5

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/policy/policy3.pdf

psilocybe
10-07-2004, 03:58 PM
Michael, would you care to provide us with scanned documentation that the venomoid surgeries performed on your animals were done by a licensed veterinarian? Can you provide a contact phone number for your vet? I'm sure you can if he's your relative as you claim. As Tanith mentioned, I find it VERY hard to believe any vet worth his credentials would perform this surgery on neonate snakes. Those are backyard butcher tactics. Care to backpeddle somemore? If you aren't willing to provide documentation on your story, I'm sure a few concerned members of this forum board might be looking into contacting the proper authorities in your area to inform them of your potential illegal activities, i.e. cruelty to animals. We anti-venomoiders always jump at the chance to get a butcher in contact with the long arm of Johnny Law. We have all of your ridiculous posts preserved here on Fauna if the need comes to draw on them. Anyone can see they are full of contradictions and back-peddling, which makes your story VERY suspicious...

I'm guessing providing proof that you are legally having these surgeries done is the only way you are going to close this can of worms you opened...

psilocybe
10-07-2004, 04:02 PM
Oh and Michael, on your sig you state you have a mangrove and a copperhead, yet you stated on a post that you have no functionally venomous snakes...

Does this (and I'm holding my breath here) mean that you have a VENOMOID MANGROVE SNAKE??????????? If that's the case, you have reached a new low in venomoiders, I can't even recall the last time I saw or heard of a venomoid copperhead, much less a mangrove! You my friend, are simply pathetic.

robin d.
10-07-2004, 04:20 PM
Who's in for helping me with the background research we need to get this one brought up on animal cruelty charges? Where is this pet store?
where is ritchie "the ferret" luna when we need him.

Mustangrde1
10-07-2004, 04:40 PM
I just saw something else.

Mike You posted a picture of Gregg M's Gaboon viper in the pic forum which i do beleive he has the copyright on. Gregg is a friend and that picture is his without doubt and without his permission to post it you would be violating copyright laws.

robin d.
10-07-2004, 04:49 PM
i thought someone said he was from oregon so i did a search there this is the link to that

http://www.whitepages.com/search/Find_Person?firstname_begins_with=1&name_begins_with=0&firstname=Michael+&name=Metzger&city_zip=&state_id=OR

but i see how he is from virginia

http://www.whitepages.com/search/Find_Person?firstname_begins_with=1&name_begins_with=0&firstname=Michael+&name=+Metzger&city_zip=&state_id=VA

his birthday is
June 12, 1989

making him 15 (illegal)


i find this funny, as he is only a freshman in highschool at best

from his profile:
I Reasearch and breed Snakes for a living.

since he is only 15 im sure those searches are no good but it may be his mom and pop or it could be nothing. wish we had an IP on him might make it easier to pinpoint

Rockford
10-07-2004, 04:51 PM
Hey folks.....Instead of burning this kid. Why not try and help him understand his wrongdoings? Check his profile. He is only 15 years old. I had more common sense at his age, but come on. Hopefully we as responsible herpers help this kid understand without all the threats, name calling, etc. It's alot easier on someone without the knowledge to listen to folks who are not threatening and insulting. Hopefully he will listen!!!

Thanks-

BThacker

Mustangrde1
10-07-2004, 04:57 PM
Brett. Tried that approach read my replies to him. I tried coverring the Science the law and the morality of it. Unfortuantely it doesnt work. his own replies are contradictions of his own words.

bcfos
10-07-2004, 06:13 PM
This kid needs serious help. It seems he is a follower of B. Smith up in Oregon the famous or infamous hacker. Which reminds me, Has anyone heard whether or not he got tagged by a puff or not?? I hope this wasn't a rumor as I would love to get a big laugh out of that punck getting tagged.

bcfos
10-07-2004, 06:20 PM
Oh correction because they don't trust us enough here to edit our own posts. I was meaning to say K. Smith not B. Smith, so sorry for the confusion.

GinoInDaBronx
10-07-2004, 08:59 PM
These venomoiders never listen to reason. Let's, metaphorically, hammer this punk with the long arm of the law.

If his story is true (cough, cough), his relative can kiss his vet license good-bye.

Virginia, eh? The search begins...

GinoInDaBronx
10-07-2004, 09:04 PM
Dont worry, Brian, it works well your way too. b smith is the alias of a notorious scammer in California. His real name is damon heynen-a convicted murderer (no joke).

so, kevin smith got drilled? The sweet irony of it all...

Gregg M
10-07-2004, 09:27 PM
Wow, This post took off huh???? LOL Scott, thanks for the heads up about the pic thing...... It seems provoiders do this from time to time...... Tanith know this better than me.....

Gary O
10-07-2004, 10:11 PM
You all know how I feel about these hackers......There is no room in the hobby for them IMO

Now onto this kid. I doubt he has half or even 3/4 of the stuff he says he has. He is posting other peoples pics and saying he has this and that. I doubt it.

And I seen that he said he had a Mang and and said he has no venomous that or still hot. WTF.............. What next............Really? I seen a King that has been hacked for sale on KS. WTF...........

IF YOU CAN NOT HANDLE A HOT DO NOT BUY ONE...........

Knowledge is power and this kid is showing no knowledge. He is in way over his head here and thought he would be cool by saying something. He got caught and changed the story then got caught yet again in something messed up and changed it again....................

Here is advice to this kid. If you never lie then you never have to remember what you said................

Hackers will get what they deserve!!!!!!!!!

Ken Harbart
10-07-2004, 11:03 PM
Okay folks, it's time for me to put on the moderator hat and remind y'all to tone down the rhetoric. The last thing I want to do right now is lock down a thread.

The topic of venomoids quite justifiably makes most serious herpers' blood boil, but persuasive arguments often tend to yield better results than ad hominem. As he's 15 and relatively inexperienced, it would be far more purposeful to educate rather than alienate. I know it gets tiresome at times, but let's try to put a bit more effort into genuinely educating our young, misguided member before going for the jugular, m'kay?

And to Mike, understand that the reason your comments have so many people up in arms is that they have a genuine respect for these animals. These aren't people whose knowledge comes from a TFH book or secondhand misinformation. Many of the folks who've responded here, myself included, have been seriously working with venomous reptiles longer than you've been alive.

To make an analogy, hacking out part of a snake's head for fun and profit is pretty much on par with amputating a lizard's legs to prevent it from escaping because one is either unwilling or unable to provide it with secure enough housing. Yes, it can survive like that, but that still doesn't justify unnecessary and disfiguring surgery.

bcfos
10-07-2004, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by GinoInDaBronx


so, kevin smith got drilled? The sweet irony of it all...



That is what the rumor mill has out. Still no confirmation as of yet.

Mustangrde1
10-07-2004, 11:47 PM
Myself and a few others have done some checking in to Kevin I flip Burgers Smith's bite and have yet to confirm it. I do know that NO AV that would be used for Bitis was called for to be sent to OR. That is not proof however one way or another but I suspect it is a rumor and not fact.

Based on His High profile on the net and his living area the bite would have at bare minimum generated some sort of publicity I would imagine. It is only a matter of time though before he does get a bite and then he will be in deap Burger grease.

snakegetters
10-08-2004, 12:42 AM
I didn't realize he was a minor. Okay, call off the legal dogs on the kid, but if this veterinarian does exist then the local regulatory boards need to have a chat with him.

I really cannot see a veterinary professional allowing a 15 year old to assist in surgeries on venomous snakes. If there really is a vet doing that, he is risking extremely serious consequences. If the kid was bitten, that would pretty much be it for the vet's career. If the animal died and the owner pursued a legal case for negligence, same story. I'm inclined to believe that the vet doesn't exist.

Understand that venomoid surgery is very serious and invasive, a lot worse than a root canal in a human. Ever had major dental work done? Bet it hurt, even if the dentist gave you pain relief medication. Imagine how much it would hurt if somebody did it with a razor blade and no pain medication or anesthesia. That's how most snakes get venomoided.

So yeah, we get pretty upset when people come on the forums talking about how easy it is to do this horrible thing to a snake because they don't want to bother learning how to care for it properly. Hopefully a lesson will have been learned here about how responsible reptile keepers regard venomoiders.

Hognose_311
10-08-2004, 07:35 AM
woah..... truthfuly...this has changed alot of things that i think..but i did go get a book about legal procedures, and venomoid surgery, etc.... In this last 50 pages or so...alot have people made me think about this stuff...so i kind of want to end this post... but half of the stuff you told me i had NO IDEA... Truthfully i will consider working back up to venomous snakes with other somewhat venomous...but i guess everyone here probably does know alot more than me, i've only kept snakes for about five years..but i just want everyone to calm down :) and give me some advice if that is what you people would rather me do.....sorry....:bandhead0

Rockford
10-08-2004, 10:36 AM
Hey Mike-

When I was your age I knew a well known Herpetologist that kept Venomoids. I visited him at his house and was in "awe" of his collection that you could "handle". During my visit I reached into a cage containing a 5' Atrox and handled him. The feeling I got from the snake was amazing and when I got home that's all I could think about. I wanted a venomoid in the worst way!

I ended up doing a little research and talked to some folks in my Herp Society that I had looked up to and decided that I didn't want a venomoid anymore. The "feeling" I got when holding that snake was at it's expense. There is no need for that animal to suffer and go through what he went through. I have been fascinated with Crotalus since I was a kid and I have never kept a single one for a reason.That reason not being set-up properly.

There are a few websites you should check out and learn as much as you can. If you have an interest in Hot animals then I would encourage you to move forth and become a responsible and respectful keeper.

Without sounding too cheesy.....Hopefully you will continue to learn and do what's right. There are alot of kooks out there in this hobby. You still have a chance not to be one of them.

Take it easy-

BThacker

psilocybe
10-08-2004, 11:40 AM
Michael,

First off, I'd like to apologize for the animosity exhibited in most of my posts. In retrospect I was a bit harsh. But I hope this shows you how this strongly this subject is felt about in the responsible venomous community. If you come to venomous keepers' board and start boasting about having snakes voided, you are gonna get attacked, big time. I'd venture to say that there are ZERO provoiders who regularly frequent this forum board for just that reason.

What can I say about the surgery that hasn't been said? Well, nothing. There are well over 50 replies to this thread, and 90% have to do with venomoids. Do yourself a favor and read over some of them.

Just remember the whole reason you got into keeping snakes: a love for the animal. How can you love something yet subject it to pain, suffering, and possible death? You can't. People who keep venomoids are impatient, greedy, uncompassionate people, and if you want to get any respect in the venomous community, or even the responsible herp keeping community in general, you'd do best by staying far, far away from being grouped with the voiders.

Anyway, I realize you're just a kid, and we all make mistakes, especially around your age. I know I have :( Here's you chance to redeem yourself...you might not be able to keep venomous right now, but so what, wait a while...it'll be worth it. You're young and have all the time in the world to enjoy this hobby, there is no need to rush in...get some real training, and when you finally get your first hot, you'll be proud that you are able to keep an animal like that intact and unharmed, and keep yourself safe in the process. Good luck.

Hognose_311
10-08-2004, 12:22 PM
Yesterday i got rid of my venomous snakes and gave them to a herpotologist that could monitor them for any problems, and i have read every post on this thread, and thats why im feeling this way about what you all have said to me.... I'm keeping my mangrove and hognoses and only mild venomous snakes though...and all my other non venomous, because i do love the hobby, ive never had the surgery done to any snake that is not REALLY venomous...such as my mangrove or hognoses, they are still the same way they were born, but im sorry...and i learned a lot.

Nobody was harsh on me....and i know why anyone was if they were harsh. but i don't know why that guy came on here talking about my last name...lol:D Anyway thank you for the "lesson". And i guess I will work my way back up to venomous snakes who will stay venomous....Thank You.


P.S.-I think this is the longest post ive ever seen. And if anyone wants to add me to their buddy list, i could use the help every once in a while....lol This is definitley the longest post ive ever caused also....:D:eek3:

Hognose_311
10-08-2004, 12:25 PM
Getting rid of




<-----him was definitley one of the most hardest things ive ever done...but what you all have said truthfully did make a difference...i never thought i would really take anyone's advice on a forum.....





I guess im not always right either.....

psilocybe
10-08-2004, 12:36 PM
Michael,

No one hear told you you had to get rid of the snakes, but if you felt you wanted to because of the information here, that is fine...we just want you to stop being involved in the purchasing or production of venomoids from here on out...

I think you've got a good head on your shoulders. With the proper training and maturity, you will make a fine hot keeper one day.

Hognose_311
10-08-2004, 12:39 PM
well i did feel that way, but after somone mentioned they could get hurt, even though now i realized i've already hurt them enough, that i think i should give them to someone who can monitor them to make sure nothing's wrong. but i will eventually get back into the venomous and learn how to do it the right way...thanks... No more non-venomous venomous snakes for me...lol sorry for any trouble i caused besides the trouble i caused on myself.

Rockford
10-08-2004, 12:45 PM
Good to see a thread go in a positive direction!!!!!

Hognose_311
10-08-2004, 12:50 PM
Well thats why im on here. and thank you for everything also BThacker....

snakegetters
10-08-2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Hognose_311 woah..... truthfuly...this has changed alot of things that i think..but i did go get a book about legal procedures, and venomoid surgery, etc....

What book is this? I am only aware of a few publications regarding venomoid surgery, and they are veterinary papers or articles rather than books. I'd like to know what book this is so I can find a copy myself.


i just want everyone to calm down :) and give me some advice if that is what you people would rather me do.....sorry....

Okay, we're all calm now. It would be much appreciated if you could answer some of our questions, like whether the vet you were talking about really existed or not. If this vet does exist, they really need to know the same things that we've explained to you in this thread. We'd like a chance to talk directly to this veterinarian.

It sounds like you're doing the right thing, and that's great. The next step is to actually show that you are doing the right thing, so we can believe your words and have confidence in you. Putting us in touch with your relative the vet would be a good start.

Rockford
10-08-2004, 04:47 PM
Come on Tanith....Get real!!!! Do you really think the kid is going to rat his relative out? If you want to hunt him down hire a P.I. If you ask the kid to maybe have a talk about ethics with his relative, that's one thing but really? The kid just fessed up to making some huge mistakes and you won't leave him alone. It sounds noble and all but you can't fix everything that's wrong with this world. I think we all helped this kid realize his wrong doings and for that hopefully he won't turn out like his relative. GIVE THE KID A BREAK!!!! He will learn!!!! If he hasn't already!!!

BThacker

snakegetters
10-08-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Bthacker
Come on Tanith....Get real!!!! Do you really think the kid is going to rat his relative out? If you want to hunt him down hire a P.I. If you ask the kid to maybe have a talk about ethics with his relative, that's one thing but really? The kid just fessed up to making some huge mistakes and you won't leave him alone. It sounds noble and all but you can't fix everything that's wrong with this world. I think we all helped this kid realize his wrong doings and for that hopefully he won't turn out like his relative. GIVE THE KID A BREAK!!!! He will learn!!!! If he hasn't already!!!

BThacker


Are you forgetting that this is the home of the Board of Inquiry?

I don't honestly know what the situation is here. I would like to believe that the kid is telling the truth, but there have been some conflicting stories told here. It's not unreasonable to ask for some clarification.

If there really is a licensed veterinarian doing venomoid surgery, they can't get into legal trouble for that. If the person doing the operations is not a veterinarian, then they definitely can. So which is it?

Mustangrde1
10-08-2004, 05:44 PM
Tanith. You really don't expect him to give you the information if its being done illegally do you lol?

My god that would be like "Kevin the burger flipping king Smith" admitting to it.

Yes, this is the home of the BOI but this forum is not the BOI. I see the numerous conflicting stories he has told as have the rest of the board viewers. I am still not even sure if he really has given up all his snakes as he said. That is some evidence I would be more concerned with. At this point I even wonder if he ever really had them to begin with. He continues to use the word Herpetologist as a back up word or impress factor word.I am curious who to this person is as there are not to many with that degree floating around. But I doubt he will provide any of us with information on whom is conducting the procedure.

I think its best to write this off and hope we have educated him and that he truly has learned a valuable lesson.

Though I must admit I would love to know the answers myself.
Also I want to know what Book he has read this information from.

Rockford
10-08-2004, 05:45 PM
Do you really think he's going to rat his relative out? Leave the KID alone. Hire Ace Ventura and all the problems will be solved with Venomoids! EDUCATE. I think we have done that here.

GinoInDaBronx
10-08-2004, 06:11 PM
I'm with you, Tanith. Which book might this be, michael? If you would be kind enough to tell me the title and author, then i can pick up a copy for myself... Or, might you be fibbing (again!)?

I also am curious about this vet. Who is it, michael? Which vet has seriously breached his sworn code of ethics? Or, was that too a lie?

snakegetters
10-08-2004, 06:33 PM
It kind of goes like this. I would really, honestly like to believe the kid and have trust and confidence in him. That would be great. Then we can all give him a helping hand, offer advice and resources, etc. But I really don't know who I'm talking to yet. I'd like to find out.

I'm no longer actively looking to get anyone in trouble. I'd just like to know that he's telling the truth and doing the right thing. Part of doing the right thing is helping to stop animal abuse. So yeah, if the operations are being done illegally by someone who is not a veterinarian, it needs to get reported.

If the operations are being done by a veterinarian, that's not illegal, but there are liability issues that the vet needs to be asked to think about. It's possible that this vet doesn't know about the capacity for regeneration and regrowth. I can put him in touch with a respected and well published veterinary researcher from ARAV who can verify how much risk he is taking on the liability end by doing the surgeries.

Rockford
10-08-2004, 06:53 PM
Tanith...I'm with you on your last post. Maybe he can spread the word to his relative "vet". Otherwise I really think you are beating a dead horse. Can you tell me what actions are being taken to make surgery illegal? And why isn't illegal?

Thanks-

BThacker

Gregg M
10-08-2004, 10:54 PM
It is illegal if it is done by a person that is NOT a licensed vet...... It is against the law in every state to practice vetinary medicine and perform operations on animals if you are NOT a licensed vetinarian...... The greater majority of licensed vets will not perform this operation and most other elective surgeries...... Plus it is illegal to commit acts of animal cruelty....... It is illegal and cruel for an unlicensed person (or any person) to operate on an animal without a super clean environment and without pain managment......
IT IS ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunatly the law is not being upheld...... Hopefully this will change in the near future......

Rockford
10-09-2004, 02:03 AM
May sound like a stupid question but why does KS allow posting of these ads? I have seen numerous venomoid ads. I'm kind of shocked after getting back into the herp world after being gone for 10 years. Alot has changed with the internet and all but it seems all I've seen on these sites are crooks and butchers. It's amazing these guys have the cajones to post!

BThacker

Mustangrde1
10-09-2004, 09:58 AM
There may in fact be a few vets actually still performing this alteration surgery. However the fast majority of the surgery can be traced to about 5 diffrent persons who ARE NOT VETS by any means. I still do not understand why websites allow these alterations to be sold without asking for proof of LEGAL surgery. My best guess is most do not care or the ones who charge for the right to use thier add space simply see the money as a factor and thus choose to overlook the facts and laws.

Morality to me and a higher since of obeying the law will not allow me to ever have them aloud on my site. Some say how can we as site owners verify it. Well its simple If JOE A wants to sell one on your site require them to in the same add place the name of the vet and date of surgery in the add. The law requires proper medical documentation of surgery. It is a simple way for site owners and the purchasing public to see that these animals were operated on by a licensed trained proffesional.

Any person who is not willing to provide that documentaion most likely is selling a garage hackjob. Simple requirements based on Law can help prevent many of these animals from being sold and even hacked. If you refuse to allow the criminals of the industry to have freedom they would be forced very quickly out of the industry. Potentially this will save both human and snake life.

Ken Harbart
10-09-2004, 11:41 AM
The decision on whether or not to allow ads isn't a matter of ethics, but rather one of civil law.

Should the owner/operator of a classified site choose to exclude the sale of a legal item (whether we like it or not, the actual sale of venomoids is generally legal), this leaves the door wide open to a successful civil action.

Likewise, requiring that vet info be posted in the ad would also constitute a discriminatory business practice. It puts us on the slippery slope of requiring that FL sellers verify their Class III, KY buyers verify their import permit, and so on and so forth.

To effectively stem the sale of venomoids, we need to get the matter before our respective state legislatures. The main obstacle there is that reptiles aren't warm and fuzzy, so enacting such legislation is a low priority for them.

As an aside...
I got your PM, Scott. I'll be shooting you an email later today, but I do want to sincerely thank you before I say or do anything else.

Mustangrde1
10-09-2004, 11:57 AM
Likewise, requiring that vet info be posted in the ad would also constitute a discriminatory business practice. It puts us on the slippery slope of requiring that FL sellers verify their Class III, KY buyers verify their import permit, and so on and so forth.

Actually the way I read the Law in FL it is a requirement of the sale that proof be shown of the class 3 to sell in the state. As a fact many citations have been handed out for not providing such proof upon request. I may have mistaken how you ment that to come out. I just wanted to add the fact as I have read it and actually witrnessed citations issued.



Should the owner/operator of a classified site choose to exclude the sale of a legal item (whether we like it or not, the actual sale of venomoids is generally legal), this leaves the door wide open to a successful civil action.

Ken so your saying a owner of a site can be held liable if he refuses to allow an item to be sold he may have beleive to have been { for lack of better words} created illegally. Simply requirring that a person to add who the vet was would not IMO constitute discrimination. In fact I beleive it follows the spirit of the law if not the letter of the law.

I am not the best on bussiness law. so any clarification would be great. I just can not imagine any court finding in favore of someone that they were discriminated upon by a provider in requiring them to give the proper medical documentation or refferanc to the legal surgery. I might be wrong

Hognose_311
10-09-2004, 02:48 PM
I 'm not going to give you the name or lacation of the vet, but i still dont see why no one pays attention to the fact that I did not perform the surgery i just wtached and held some tools, i dont want this argument to start up again...but im at my friends house right now and i don't have the book, but its not actually an entire book on venomoid legal procedures, it's a book called "venomous snakes". im not sure who the author is, but i rented it at the Chesterfield, VA local Library.

psilocybe
10-09-2004, 09:27 PM
Michael,

If your "vet" is legit, he has nothing to worry about. As Tanith said, no one is looking to get you or your vet in trouble...unless they aren't a vet. Any vet would be more than happy to talk to a concerned group of animal lovers and keepers about a potential medical and legal issue. If he isn't doing anything wrong, he has nothing to worry about. Your refusal to give us a name, or a means to contact this person cast a large amount of doubt on everything else you have told us. Again, as long as this person is legit, neither you or they have anything to worry about. So why are you insistent on hiding his identity?

Hognose_311
10-09-2004, 09:29 PM
Ill give you his name but does it matter if i have his permission or not?

snakegetters
10-10-2004, 01:05 AM
Frankly you'd be doing this vet a favor by letting us explain to him about the legal liability situation. He may not be entirely aware of all the ramifications of doing venomoid surgery.

I'd as soon have your vet talk directly to my vet; they can speak on a professional level, and my vet can share the research we have gathered and the papers from veterinary conference proceedings that are relevant to the subject.

Hognose_311
10-10-2004, 11:51 AM
yes or no, do i have permission to put his name online?>

snakegetters
10-10-2004, 01:56 PM
Legally you don't need permission to put anybody's name online if you are telling other people about them.

The vet might be mad if you put his name online and a bunch of people started yelling at him and acting like lunatics, but that's really not the plan here. I'd just like to make sure he has the opportunity to speak to another veterinarian who has done some research into this field.

GinoInDaBronx
10-10-2004, 07:30 PM
michael, please stop stalling. What is his name? We just want to talk to him about venomoid surgeries; if, in fact heb exists, that is.

Hognose_311
10-11-2004, 07:32 AM
Im not stalling, obviously you can see, on this forum, i happen to get into a lot of legal issues, which is not intended. Im just going to make sure, just incase, ill try to get his name on here soon.

Mustangrde1
10-11-2004, 11:13 AM
Enough already. You know his name you can post it . Though i suspect your grasping at straws. You already have given yourself a bad name and made yourself very untrustwourthy. So knock off the excuses and provide the truth for a change. this is getting old.

Ken Harbart
10-11-2004, 11:21 AM
There isn't a single legal issue involved in regards to posting his name, and you need no one's permission. It's a simple matter of typing his name, then clicking "submit reply." Not difficult at all.

Rockford
10-11-2004, 01:25 PM
Alright Mike-

Enough is enough. I wasn't going to post but you have as much common sense as my girlfriends Chihuahua(if not less). I wasn't going to post but after reading how you successfully bred a Hognose with a Boa, that did it. No one likes a liar. You will find yourself alienated from the herp community if you keep it up. I was nice and gave you a chance. QUIT LYING- Bust out with your Vet buddies name and quit your lying.

BThacker

Mustangrde1
10-11-2004, 03:19 PM
Hognose and BOA #%@$@#^??????? I just spit my Soda all over the keys thanks alot Brett..

Mustangrde1
10-11-2004, 03:36 PM
Ok im laughing so hard I cant pass this up.

First Mike that is an Eastern Hognose NOT a southern. Give us all a break you think people here are so stupid they can not blow that picture up and look at it. Secound Southern Hogs are actually rare to find in captive collections last i checked for them. Third I have had several in my collection and not one looked remotely like that all mine were Wild Caught however. I doubt you even would know the Price True southerns are wourth even for wc specimens.

Ken pointed out why the breeding of the species is impossible I seriously Doubt even Dr Frankenstein could do it.

In PARTING. I was walking across a bridge and this hidious creature jumped out from under it demanding a toll I took one look at it and laughed and said grow up Troll. it ran back under the bridge crying and waiting for the next unsuspecting person to try and pass its BS off on.

Ken Harbart
10-11-2004, 03:44 PM
Yep. That tall tale earned him a warning for obvious troll. The immaturity is getting rather tiresome. The "all snakes are technically constrictors" was pretty amusing as well.

Mustangrde1
10-11-2004, 03:48 PM
Ken with everything we have been through lately down here though the laughter im getting is needed.

Send me that e-mail about the other. Or ill try pming you my number and you can call direct. which ever is easiest for you.

Rockford
10-11-2004, 03:49 PM
Sorry Scott!!!!! This kid is unreal. I owe everyone an apology! I am sorry for telling all of you that you are being too hard on this kid. He needs a good hook to his ever growing nose!!!!!!! Nothing worse than a liar!!

BThacker

snakegetters
10-11-2004, 09:31 PM
Well I was planning to hybridize a cantaloupe and a cauliflower. I figured I'd get a melon-cauli baby.

The other thing I wanted to breed was a Gaboon and a pane of glass. That would be a window viper.

Now that we're done with the funnies, here's the serious speculation. I have a copperhead male (currently residing with Mardi Snipes for breeding) that vigorously attempts to copulate any female including snakes not of his species. He would begin head jerking motions while I was still tailing him down into the cage with the female. Obviously no offspring would result if I put him down with a boa, and it's possible that he might not even try because she wouldn't smell right. But I'd lay reasonable odds that he might just attempt to go through the breeding motions. I don't know as it never occurred to me to try.

ms_terese
10-11-2004, 09:39 PM
Since Hognose_311's posts have overshadowed the original topic of this thread, I just wanted to point out that Seamus started a topic on Hognose_311's outrageous claims in *HELL*. (Look for the Michael Metzger thread.)

On a related note, the owner of the pet store that Michael claims to work for (and where the alleged venomoid surgeries were said to have been performed) has posted on that thread. I hope that people will hear his side before assuming from this thread that he allows venomoid surgeries.

GinoInDaBronx
10-11-2004, 09:41 PM
good job on those hognose-boa hybrids, mikey! you really have put Dr Moreau to shame. Did your 'vet' help you with this project? Or, was he too busy venomoiding more mangroves (something akin to putting a trigger-guard on a water pistol)???

Are you still stalling? I see that you are reading this. Why dont you stop all of the lies and get back to your junior high?

Hognose_311
10-12-2004, 07:41 AM
Not quite sure whats going on here....my friends been messing with my profile ever since i let him know my password so he is able to log on to my SN. My buddy Euan obviously thinks this crap, is funny, someone please explain what he has been doing so i dont have to read this 18 something pages of threads, obviously it has to do with venomoid surgery, but someone please inform me a little more.

Mustangrde1
10-12-2004, 09:10 AM
Mike. Your lies and other BS are unreal and yet you are keeping it up. Even if your little buddy was doing and doing it from an outside line do you think for one minute knowing you have been watching and knowing all the e-mail notification go to your computer not his we beleive you. GIVE US ALL A BREAK AND JUST STOP POSTING your a liar and have insulted a good bussiness and bussiness man. You are now potentially going to cause him legal ramifications.

GinoInDaBronx
10-12-2004, 10:58 AM
lil mikey, your posts get more and more pathetic. Even the stupidest scammers on here (bearded pets and jesse underhill) can do better than you.

Does anyone have a phone number for his parents? he has gone too far and I think that mommy and daddy metzger should be made aware of just how ignorant and pathetic their son really is.
Although, I am thinking that they wont be too surprized.

psilocybe
10-12-2004, 12:24 PM
My what an interesting turn this thread has taken.

Michael, I take back anything nice I said about you. You are obviously a liar of the worst kind, one that lies for NO REASON WHATSOEVER. The pet store you advertise as your own (or one you work for) has stepped forth and informed us that you only volunteer from time to time. I'm sure he is not happy you made us believe that he allows venomoid butchery to be performed on his premises.

Obviously your b.s. about a licensed vet are lies as well. I don't doubt you keep venomoids however, you fit the profile of the type of people most venomoid keepers and hackers are...scum.

vferra7777
10-13-2004, 02:40 PM
Hello. I am Vinny Ferraiolo, owner of Off the Ark. Mike does not work for us, we do not do anything more invasive than untangling hedgehogs and cleaning off the "cheese" on some very cold animal's mouths. I know Michael and want to repay his kind words on me back to him, so I will post his home phone number as soon as i find it. Please call his father and step mother with your comments. THEY seem very nice. They may well appreciate your honesty and together we may allow Mike to see how stupid he has been, how damaging he has been and how dissapointed I am. i hope he gets his stuff straight, for now I do not want to see him in my store or hear him on my phone line. I think Clover Hill High School, where he posts from, would also like to hear about his ILLEGAL posts made from their brand new computers. Sorry about all this stuff, I thought you were different Mike. YOU ARE A FOOL!!!

snakegetters
10-13-2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by vferra7777
Hello. I am Vinny Ferraiolo, owner of Off the Ark. Mike does not work for us, we do not do anything more invasive than untangling hedgehogs and cleaning off the "cheese" on some very cold animal's mouths.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Just fyi, veterinarians back in the 1970's and earlier used to consider cold an effective immobilizing agent for doing veterinary procedures on snakes. More recent research has overwhelmingly demonstrated that a cold reptile patient is a) fully sensate, conscious and feeling pain, and b) dangerously immunocompromised. In short you should never, ever put a sick snake in the refrigerator so they get cold enough not to struggle.

It's more humane and effective to do veterinary procedures on snakes in their species POTZ (preferred optimum temperature zone). If the procedure is painful, it is appropriate to use sedative or anesthetic drugs such as Diazepam or isoflurane for chemical immobility, and pain relief medications such as buprenorphine, butorphanol and the locals (lidocaine, etc).

You can find more useful tips on the safe and humane veterinary restraint of venomous reptiles at http://www.snakegetters.com Same techniques are also useful for things like nasty blood pythons.

Hognose_311
10-14-2004, 04:40 PM
This is Michael Metzger, i am 15 years old, I wanted to let everyone know that everything I have said is a lie... I do not do my own venomoid surgery, I do not work for Vinny, or Off The Ark. I do not now own or have ever owned any venomous snakes of any kind. Nor have I ever performed any type of surgery or operations on any animal.

I have never performed any surgeries at Off The Ark or have Seen any operations done there. I want to apologize for things i have said that have made an uproar of things on Fauna Classifieds or any place else that has been disturbed.

I want to apologize also to everyone associated with Off The Ark, or anybody who has done business with them, I only know them to be of the highest integrity when dealing with any types of animals. They would never be associated with anything that is related to the lies and garbage that i have posted on here.

I would like to apologize to all the people who take seriously the privilege of owning any animals. I have now lost the privilege of owning any types of pets or animals. i am sorry for the trouble that i know i have caused.

Michael Metzger

Gregg M
10-14-2004, 05:14 PM
I know for a fact that mike did not post the above paragraphs, but maybe something good came out of this....... I realy hope he learned a good lesson...... If you lie you will be caught, especially if you lie about something you do not know much about to people who know alot about it...... If you said these things on a hedge hog site, you might have gotten away with it for alittle while.....

Also, lies can hurt not only you but other people as well...... Now you can not keep any reptiles and you have lost a knoledgable friend that could have helped you understand something about snakes and lizards.......

Anyway, Mike you have some growing and learning to do before you dive in and try to care for another living creature...... Your parents have done you (and any reptile that might have found it way into your hands) a favor and you will see this in the long run......



Man, I have a funny way of starting threads that go on forever.....LOL

Rockford
10-14-2004, 11:24 PM
Yeah....thanks alot Gregg!!!! Good stuff....kept me occupied for a good couple of hours!

On a serious note. It's really too bad. I would have been really bummed if I wasn't able to keep my collection at his age. Hopefully he wont lie anymore.

BThacker

Hognose_311
10-15-2004, 12:29 AM
I have spent the last few hours reading all the rediculous claims and statements made by my son... I am embarrassed and saddened that he feels he has to tell completely absurd stories in an attempt to feel important or get attention... I have obviously failed him in some aspect ... Michael does not now, or has he ever owned any poisionous snakes, other than the mangrove snake he has now, and a southern hognose, I believe he is a southern because we found him , and that is what we were told he was. He also owns a Red tailed Boa....All of which will be finding new homes until the time Mike can realize the trouble he has caused by his repeated lying. We have no relatives that are veterenarians, and michael does not know any vets that are doing any of the procedures he has claimed to help with so there is no need in looking for some one breaking the law, these were all completely false statements.

I am most saddened by the fact that Michael would imply that Vinny, from "Off the Ark Exotic Reptiles" would be in any way part of the rediculous claims he has made. His only involvement at the store was to do some volunteer work on occassion. Vinny was kind enough to teach mike all that he knows about snakes and reptiles. The damage done by the stupid statements made by my son can be hard to forget ... but anyone who knows Vinny and his family know that these were rediculous claims all along... I only hope that they will accept mine and my families apology for the harm Michael has done to "Off the Ark's" reputation...

We also would like to apologize to all the people who take the priviledge of owning snakes and reptiles as pets and reassure all of you, that there has never been any surgeries done here at home or at any other location.

I hope that some good may come out of this and that mike learns a valuable lesson. Maybe the loss of his pets that he cares about so much, and actually takes good care of, will get his attention. Again we are sorry for the uproar and you shouldn't hear much from michael anytime in the near future.

sincerely and sadly, mikes dad

Gregg M
10-15-2004, 07:38 AM
No problem Brett, any time....LOL......

Mikes dad, just make sure you do not discourage Mike from learning all he can about reptiles...... He can learn tons on a site like this...... The greater majority of people on this site know alot about reptiles and are very willing to pass the info off to someone not as experianced...... If Mike came in here today with a serious question, I for one, would not hesitate to answer...... I do not feel you failed him Mr Metzger..... Kids are in a weird place at 15...... Each kid deals with it differently...... Just coach him on how to conduct himself on a public board and he should be fine...... Mr. Metzger, I am glad you found all of this out before any real damage could be done...... Thank you for coming to this forum with an explaination even though you did not have to...... You are a gentleman and I hope Mike will fallow in your footsteps.....

Seamus Haley
10-15-2004, 07:39 AM
I hope that some good may come out of this and that mike learns a valuable lesson.

Might have been a little more valuable if you hadn't tried to dig him out of the trouble he had made by posting as him.

Gregg M
10-15-2004, 07:44 AM
Hey Seamus,
Did you know that the comment Ian made in your sig, goes right to the BC forum????? Too bad it does not go to that thread anymore....LOL

Gary O
10-15-2004, 11:23 AM
Ok I know this is kinda off the subect but it gets to me.......


You say your son does not own a venomous snake other then a Mang and a Hognose..........

WELL

A hognose is not "venomous" a Mang is......... There is a difference.

I am not sure why you would allow your son to own a Hot when you do not have the knowledge yourself...........Sure mangs are good stepping stone for hot keeping but they are not as easy to keep as some think and you may know by now.

They have a striking range that puts most snakes to shame. and as I said before their venom is nasty but it is their delivery system that they lack that puts them down on the charts. Dr. Bryan Fry said it is like a death adder lite. He has wrote many papers on the mangs venom and delivery system. I recommend his site to anyone that does not know about it

http://www.venomdoc.com/

I have learned a lot from this mans knowledge and papers!

Knowledge is power and knowing everything you can about a species before you bring it onto your home should be your first thing.

I am not trying to tell you how to raise your son with the next statement but I think you will find it may help.

Sit down with him and pick out a snkae. Study where it comes from learn everything you can and then bring it into your home and work with it together................

A good friend told me this and it makes so much sence.....lol

But I seen Mike say the mang is no hot. He did not know. IMO he should not even of had the snake then........

Gary O
10-15-2004, 11:58 AM
I am sorry my above statement is wrong.

When I say the hognose is not venomous...............

http://www.venomdoc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=801&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

Rockford
10-15-2004, 01:08 PM
Hi Gary-

I am going to have to disagree with you saying:

"I am not sure why you would allow your son to own a Hot when you do not have the knowledge yourself"

I believe there are plenty of mature young adults that can take care of Hots without the parent having "the knowledge". What I don't mean by that is for the parent not to know what is going on, but be aware of the risks involved.

Unfortunately Mike's situation may not be the best to refer to in assessing the capabilities of a young hot keeper.

I do agree with you on the fact that Mangroves do make a great stepping stone into hot keeping.

There are alot of dangers out there. Allergic reactions to mildly venomous animals, pit-bulls, scorpions, tarantulas etc....However you are correct about education. You should learn as much as you can before acquiring an animal, becuase there is going to be plenty more to learn when you actually do have them in possesion.

Anyway...I hope I made some sense. I still haven't had my coffee.

Ciao-

BThacker

Hognose_311
10-15-2004, 04:02 PM
That was Mike's post... and i'm far from trying to "dig him out of trouble" I was standing over his shoulder making sure he wasn't trying to get out of trouble by telling more lies..... I'm sure you've all heard enough... I appreciate your comments.... mike is in the process of writing to apologize to the person he did the most harm to .. and he's no where near out of trouble around this house.... thanks

Gary O
10-16-2004, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Bthacker
Hi Gary-

I am going to have to disagree with you saying:

"I am not sure why you would allow your son to own a Hot when you do not have the knowledge yourself"

I believe there are plenty of mature young adults that can take care of Hots without the parent having "the knowledge". What I don't mean by that is for the parent not to know what is going on, but be aware of the risks involved.

Unfortunately Mike's situation may not be the best to refer to in assessing the capabilities of a young hot keeper.

I do agree with you on the fact that Mangroves do make a great stepping stone into hot keeping.

There are alot of dangers out there. Allergic reactions to mildly venomous animals, pit-bulls, scorpions, tarantulas etc....However you are correct about education. You should learn as much as you can before acquiring an animal, becuase there is going to be plenty more to learn when you actually do have them in possesion.

Anyway...I hope I made some sense. I still haven't had my coffee.

Ciao-

BThacker

AGREED. The reason I brought it up here is I seen that Mike did not know either. He said many times the Mnag was not hot.

So I took it as he did not even know what he had. lol

But I agree there are some very good minors out there that have owned hots.......... I know of a few that did it here in their young days lol..........

Also about the comment on the Hog. I am not really sure now. The more I read into the papers written on the subject the more I am confused lol. I have had a few friend talk to me about it though. And to say the Hog is not a true hot as the mang is. But that is for another post lol

Mustangrde1
10-16-2004, 09:59 AM
I so can not pass this one up.

Hi Gary

I am going to have to disagree with you saying:

"I am not sure why you would allow your son to own a Hot when you do not have the knowledge yourself"-

Gary breed?


Now on to the subject at hand. Mangroves are venomous yes they have the three key components required for the title of VENOMOUS hollow fangs1 venom ducts2 duvorneys gland3

Hognose do not have the three. There saliva may contain toxins but is it truly venom not by deffinition needed by the three recognised means of delivery. If we went by whats in a mouth the human mouth is one of the worse of all.

Rockford
10-16-2004, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Mustangrde1
I so can not pass this one up.



If we went by whats in a mouth the human mouth is one of the worse of all.

Good morning all!!!

I agree!!!! I almost killed my girlfriend when I woke up with my mouth. I just opened it up to say good morning and she almost passed out and fell off the bed!!!

BThacker

bcfos
10-16-2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Bthacker
Good morning all!!!

I agree!!!! I almost killed my girlfriend when I woke up with my mouth. I just opened it up to say good morning and she almost passed out and fell off the bed!!!

BThacker



I am sure she was very thankful for that also.


And on a personal note if I had a son or daughter for that matter I would teach them the dangers of venomous snakes, but would not allow them to own one till they were at least 18.