Northern Pines Puking!

[vscampbell]

I have several Northern Pine hatchlings, from different clutches, and I'm having a tough time keeping food down them. They eat and then puke up the meal several days later. Ambient is 74F with 80-84F belly heat areas in the back of ten gallon aquariums. Pine shavings on the bottom of the cages, water available sufficient for soaking. I use a PE2 temp gun for monitoring, as well as two room thermometers as a double check for accuracy. Hide spots are available, but they don't use them a lot, prefering to bury in the pine shavings. Room is a dedicated snake room, very quiet. They've been checked for parasites and proto. I've tried mice, furry rats, etc. They puke everything up except pinkies, but they don't puke every time and not all of the hatchlings puke. I could just feed pinkies for while, but 18" pituophis hatchlings EAT A LOT of pinkies.

Any ideas?

Val Campbell

[evansnakes]

On the practical side of things, aquariums are not ideal. If you are using a screen top that is where all your heat is exiting your tank. Try covering 1/2-2/3 of the top with a towel or something. They should be a bot warmer anyhow as the outdoor and indoor temps are dropping this time of year.

On the other hand, many colubrids that regurg have digestive track or intestinal blockage or other problems that can be solved by a dose of Flagyl. Almost always after a single dose your problem will be solved.

[Stevefromsd]

What is Flagyl?

[oldherper]

Pituophis are notorious for regurgitating and vomiting. It is important to make the distinction between the two. Regurgitation is bringing the food back up from the stomach. This will occur within 24 hours of eating. Vomiting is bringing the food back up from the intestinal tract. That occurs after about 24 hours of eating.

The two major causes of regurgitating and vomiting with small Pituophis is feeding food items that are too large (or feeding too many food items), and temperatures. Pituophis tend to do better if kept at slightly lower temperatures than other colubrids. 85 degrees (IMHO) is too hot. I keep my Pine Snakes at 70 degrees on the cool end of the cage and 78 degrees on the warm end.

[oldherper]

Originally posted by Stevefromsd
What is Flagyl?


Flagyl is a trade name for Metronidazole. It is an antimicrobial that is used to eliminate protozoans, such as Giardia and Entamoeba, etc. It is a prodrug that is activated by water. It kills the bugs by taking away their ability to replicate DNA. It can be toxic (nephrotoxic) if improperly dosed, and it's use in gravid females calls for caution. Some species of reptiles are very sensitive to Metronidazole.

[gila7150]

I agree with Oldherper's advice. When in doubt, feed smaller meals than you think they can handle. Some people push their colubrids to promote faster growth but this is a really bad idea when it comes to Pituophis.

Sometimes Pituophis can get into a chronic regurgitation cycle that can be difficult to reverse. I would recommend fasting them for 10-14 days (providing they have good body weight).
After the fasting period I would try starting them on very small meals. I'd also try bringing the temps down a little.

A fecal exam couldn't hurt......any other animals in your collection having problems?

[gila7150]

Oops....I missed the part where you said you checked them for parasites already.

You mentioned that they puke up mice and furry rats. Have you tried mice fuzzies.....that's what I usually start my hatchlings on. Unlike ratsnakes, milks, kings,...if the prey item leaves a large bulge in a pit, it's probably going to come back up.

Try bringing the warm spot down to 80-82F and if they only have one hidebox, make sure it's on the cool side.
Good luck,
Chris

[oldherper]

Chris is right about those points.

The reason that you need to lay off the feed for a while when a pit regurgitates or vomits is that the action of bringing the food back up irritates the lining of the digestive tract, which makes it more likely to happen again. You need to give the snake at least a week to 10 days to heal before you try it again.

Also, on the subject of medications...never, ever try to medicate one of your snakes without the direction of a veterinarian unless you know for sure exactly what pathogen you are trying to eliminate and fully understand the drug you are using. Some of the drugs used to treat for different parasites are dangerous to the animal if improperly administered. Some of them are safe for use in some species, but will possibly kill another species. For instance, the vermifuge Ivermectin can be safely used to eliminate things like tapeworms in most species, but may kill turtles and tortoises and Indigo Snakes.

[sumguy]

low 80's is ideal max temp for pits? does this apply to black pines as well? just curious. keep high end in mid to upper 80s. mine are doing well but have lots of attitude and are shy eaters. back on topic - are they doing better now?

[gila7150]

Hey Bruce,
If your snakes are thriving at those temps I wouldn't change anything. I think that the size of the enclosure has a lot to do with it. As long as the cage is large enough to provide a temperature gradient the snake will usually find the temp it likes.
It's more difficult to provide a temperature gradient for a hatchling that's kept in a small rack system so I usually prefer to keep things a little cooler. I live in FL so my pines would probably thrive at room temp but I use flex watt to give them a slightly warmer area they can get to if they want.
I've never had a problem with any of my northerns or blacks but my jani and my vertebralis seem more sensitive to higher temps.

Still, if one of my pits started puking the first thing I'd try was lowering the temps and feeding smaller/less frequent meals.

[sumguy]

thanks. they're in the new rubbermaid 45qt snap toppers with about 3" aspen to burrow in. they work prety well - like how the lid is even with the brim of the tub. they will be moved to large Iris X-mas tree storage boxes as adults and possibly something bigger if they look cramped.

[oldherper]

I keep all of my pits and Drymarchon in the low to mid 80's all the time. I brumate my pits in winter at 60 degrees (except Mexican Pines).

[gila7150]

I brumate my pits in winter at 60 degrees (except Mexican Pines).

What do you brumate your Mexicans at? Just curious because I started cooling my jani down gradually about 10 days ago. They're at 65 now but I was planning on taking them down further.

[Stevefromsd]

Originally posted by evansnakes
On the practical side of things, aquariums are not ideal. If you are using a screen top that is where all your heat is exiting your tank. Try covering 1/2-2/3 of the top with a towel or something. They should be a bot warmer anyhow as the outdoor and indoor temps are dropping this time of year.

On the other hand, many colubrids that regurg have digestive track or intestinal blockage or other problems that can be solved by a dose of Flagyl. Almost always after a single dose your problem will be solved.

Thanks for the info on Flagyl. I took my Rosy Boas to the vet and it turned out they DID have internal parisites. So the vet gave my Flagyl to give them. They were puking so that's why I originally read this thread.

[oldherper]

I wasn't going to brumate my jani this year at all. For one thing, they are juveniles and I want to get some size on them first, and for another I'm not sure how they should be brumated. I don't have any information yet that wil tell me what their requirements are going to be.....I need to find someone who's had some experience with them.

[vscampbell]

I want to thank everyone who has replied to this thread. I had several NPS that were being kept in 10 gallon aquariums with acrylic lids, on Pine Shavings, at about 70F. I was feeding them fuzzy rats, about mouse size.

I did a lot of research on the pine shavings, I have used them for 30 years with Boas, Balls, bull snakes, king snakes, rat snakes, etc. and had no issues at all! I checked with several vastly experienced people around the country and with a local source that has forty years of experience extending to tens of thousands of snakes of all kinds. The result of this inquiry is that pine shavings are fine if natural and not treated. Aspen seems to be preferred if shavings are desired.

Some people keep their NPS at 70F and some closer to 80F, all agree that newspaper or paper towels are the most safe substrate.

I did the following: I increased the temperature of the room to 80-82F and removed the locale heat from all tanks in the room (which contains corns, kings, pines, and gophers). I removed the pine shavings in favor of newspapers. I also quit feeding anything with much hair in favor of pink rats. The most sensitive snakes I also started feeding prekilled to make things less dramatic.

Results: I had some success in decreasing the regurging but not entirely. I do agree that the larger the item or total meal, the more inclined they are to regurg. The temperature seemes to help a lot. These snakes, which do not all come from the same sources, seem to like soaking and all seem to do better at a constant temp of about 80f. When I provided a gradient, they seemed to seek the cooler temps but then they regurged??! I regard the best combination as pink rats, one a week, temp about 80f constant. I am going to put them back on shavings at soem point because they are more clean, but I think I'll try aspen. Of all factors, I think the shavings seem to be the least of an issue, and my suspicion is that the shavings are less disturbing that messing with getting the snakes out from under the paper to check on them.

By the way, I also had a corn snake hatchling that was not eating. Nothing worked until I finally started feed it pink mice in a very small margerine container with stinky shavings. Worked like a charm and it feeds everytime I leave it like this for a few hours.

Hope this helps some others,

Val Campbell